Lords Sitting of 18 March 1884

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading— Habitual Criminals Act Amendment (28).
Second Reading—Committee negatived—National Debt (30).
Report—Trustee Churches (Ireland) * (32).

HABITUAL CRIMINALS ACT AMEND MENT BILL.—(No. 28.)
(The Earl of Milltown.)

SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF MILLTOWN, in moving that the Bill be now road a second time, said, the object of the measure was to extend the summary jurisdiction now exercised by magistrates in cases of assault committed upon the police while in the execution of their duty to cases of obstructing the police under similar circumstances. By an anomaly in the present law, charges of the most grievous assault upon the police could be disposed of summarily by the magistrates; whereas the slightest case of obstructing a constable in the execution of his duty must be dealt with as a misdemeanour and sent to the Quarter Session, a proceeding which was attended with considerable expense, and which inflicted great hardships on prisoners. This Bill would correct this anomaly.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a." —(The Earl of Milltown.)
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

NATIONAL DEBT BILL.—(No. 30.)
(The Lord Thurlow.)

SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD THURLOW, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that the measure related to questions of account and not of principle. Acts of 1863 and 1883 authorized the conversion of Three per Cents Hold by the National Debt Commissioners on account of the Post Office Savings Banks into Two-and-a-Half per Cents, the difference in value to be paid off by means of a 20 years' annuity. Owing to the present high price of Government securities, the rate at which the annuity was paid was really too high; and although it was simply a matter of account between the Treasury and the National Debt Commissioners, it was thought right to make the amount paid to the latter as nearly correct as possible. Under Clause 2, it would be

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calculated according to the market price of the Funds, with a margin to secure the National Debt Commissioners from loss. The 3rd clause would enable the Treasury, from time to time, to redeem the remainder of the £2,000,000 borrowed from the National Debt Commissioners, which was advanced to the Indian Government during the Afghan War, originally as a loan, but later as a gift. The Bill was not one in the details of which that House could properly interfere.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read2a" —(The Lord Thurlow.)
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly; Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a on Thursday next.

ORDNANCE SURVEY (SCOTLAND).

  MOTION FOR A PAPER.
  LORD BALFOUR, in rising to ask Her Majesty's Government, Whether it was true that it was not intended to complete the survey of these parts of the United Kingdom that were covered with fresh water, and to move—
  "For the Correspondence that has taken place between the Treasury and the Royal Society of Edinburgh as to the bathymetrical survey of the lochs of Scotland,"
  said, that many of the lochs in Scotland were used for navigation. Two of them, he believed, had been surveyed very completey—namely, Loch Lomond and Loch Awe; but there were other lochs, such as Loch Ness and Loch Lochy, which were at least equally navigable, and a survey of which should be undertaken. It was also very important from a scientific and geological point of view that this survey should be made. It was often of as great importance to know the depth and shape of the basins of fresh water lochs as to know the height of the mountains which might be close at hand. He did not say that every fresh water loch should be surveyed thoroughly, but there were many lochs in Scotland the survey of which would be of great advantage; and it might be arranged between the Government and the Royal Society, or some other scientific institution, which of these lochs it would be most desirable to survey. Great dissatisfaction would be caused if no further attempt was made to survey any of these lochs; and if that was the decision of the Government, he should be glad
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  to know the reasons on which it was based.
  Moved," That there be laid before the House, Copies of the Correspondence that has taken place between the Treasury and the Royal Society of Edinburgh as to the bathymetrical survey of the lochs of Scotland."—(The Lord Balfour.)
  VISCOUNT BURYsaid, the Survey in England had been progressing very slowly, and they had at last been promised that that Survey should be completed. If, however, they took away men in order to survey the lochs of Scotland, as suggested by the noble Lord, it would have the effect of delaying the completion of the English Survey, particularly in the Southern counties.
  LORD SUDELEY: In reply to the noble Lord, I have to state that the operations of the Ordnance Survey have been hitherto restricted to such portions of the ground in the vicinity of fresh water pools and inland sheets of water generally as are above the lowest water levels. It is quite true, as the noble Lord has stated, that Loch Lomond and Loch Awe were surveyed some years ago; but that was undertaken by naval officers in the interests of navigation. The Government consider that a bathymetrical survey of all the lochs of Scotland would clearly be outside the function of the present Ordnance Survey of Scotland, which is already completed. Even if it were desirable, men would be taken off their work in England and the Southern counties to carry this work out, as the noble Viscount has stated, and the General Survey would be very much delayed. Such investigation would, no doubt, be most interesting from a scientific point of view in certain branches of geological inquiry, to ascertain the forms of the basins occupied by the lakes; but the Government do not see their way at present to carry out such a survey. They will, However, give the suggestions made by the noble Lord full consideration, and there will be no objection, to lay the Papers asked for on the Table.
  Motion agreed to.

EGYPT (EVENTS IN THE SOUDAN) — ADMIRAL SIR WILLIAM HEWETT'S PROCLAMATION—OSMAN DIGNA.

  QUESTION, OBSERVATIONS.
  EARL DE LA WARErose to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs,

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  Whether the recent Proclamation of Admiral Hewett at Suakin could be laid upon the Table of the House? It had been stated, he said, in the public Press and remained uncontradicted, that Admiral Hewett, who was recently invested with supreme authority—he did not know by whom—as Civil and Military Governor of Suakin, and was acting in the name of the British Government, had issused a Proclamation which ran thus—
  "I, the English Governor General, Civil and Military, of Suakin, make known that whosever will bring in the rebel Osman, the murderer, who has by his lies caused the blood of the tribes to be spilt at El Teb and Tamanieb, alive or dead, shall receive 5,000 dollars reward."
  It was further stated that the Proclamation had been affixed to the walls of Suakin, and circulated throughout the country. It had been also commented upon by the French Press. He trusted Her Majesty's Government would have no objection to laying a Copy of the Proclamation, as issued by Admiral Hewett, upon the Table of the House. It seemed to him that a Proclamation such as that to which he had referred, and which, was now assumed to be correct, would be unworthy, to say the least, of any civilized country, and that it would be little short of offering a reward for murder to bring alive or dead, as it said, the leader of brave and gallant men who had been fighting for their country, their families, and their Homes against these who did not really know what they were fighting for, but who now, unhappily, would leave behind them thousands of Homes with only widows and orphans.
  VISCOUNT BURY, who had on the Paper a Notice to inquire Whether a statement which appeared in a morning paper of the 17th of March to the effect that a reward had been offered for Osman Digna, alive or dead, was correct? said, as his Question was similar in substance to that which had been asked, he would content himself with the answer that would be given to his noble Friend.
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I have to say that Her Majesty's Government had received no official information of the Proclamation in question yesterday morning; but, on account of the reports in the papers, Her Majesty's
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  Government, through the First Lord of the Admiralty, sent an inquiring telegram to Admiral Hewett. Information has been received from Admiral Hewett. The noble Earl praised Osman Digna. The Admiral considers him to be a murderer, who had killed two of his messengers. The Proclamation was issued after consultation with the Headmen and the Sheikhs of the friendly tribes. We have received the text of the Proclamation; it contains the offer of the reward alluded to by the noble Viscount. Her Majesty's Government have telegraphed that they cannot approve it, and that the offer must be withdrawn at once in the manner which seems to these on the spot to be most judicious.

PARLIAMENT—PRIVATE BILLS.

  RESOLUTION.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I rise to move that all Private Bills to which the Standing Order No. 38. applies be circulated on their introduction in the same manner as Public Bills. I think the Private Business of your Lordships' House is a matter of considerable public interest. In the recent discussions that have taken place with respect to the housing of the poor in the Metropolis and other populous places, it has been stated that the evils of overcrowding have been greatly caused by the clearances which are the result of large public works, especially railways. These public works are usually authorized by Private Bills that pass through Parliament. According to the Private Bill Standing Orders of this House it is necessary, whenever a Private Bill proposes to destroy and take compulsorily the dwellings of a certain number of people, that there should be stated and circulated the mode in which the undertakers propose to supply the place of these houses that have been destroyed. But it has been indicated to us in evidence, and there are grounds for believing it, that these precautions are imperfectly taken. Undoubtedly, the overcrowding of the poor has been very largely increased and intensified by the operation of Private Bill legislation in tins House. I ask your Lordships that Bills which have this character, and the object of which is to clear away a certain number of working men's dwellings, should be submitted to the judgment of

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  the House, and that they should be circulated as Public Bills are. Every Public Bill, whether important or not, is sent round to noble Lords generally; whereas a Private Bill, on which the; welfare of a considerable population may hang, was lodged in the Private Bill Office, and was seen by only a few noble Peers who are employed on the Private Bill Committee. I am told that it may be expensive; but that seems to me to be a reason which is wholly exaggerated, because when a Bill is once in type there will be very little extra cost in printing 200 or 300 more copies. I trust, therefore, no objection will be made on the score of expense.
  Moved,"That all Private Bills to which Standing Order No. 38. applies be circulated, on their introduction, in the same manner as Public Bills."—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)was understood to oppose the Motion on the ground that the printing and circulating of Private Bills to all Members of their Lordships' House would be a very considerable additional expense to the parties concerned in promoting large undertakings and improvements.
  Motion agreed to.
  Ordered, That all Private Bills to which Standing Order No. 38. applies be circulated, on their introduction, in the same manner as Public Bills.
  House adjourned at Five o'clock, to Thursday next, a quarter-past Ten o'clock