Lords Sitting of 3 March 1884

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Brokers (City of London)* (24); Medical Act Amendment *(23).
EGYPT (MILITARY OPERATIONS IN THE SOUDAN)—POLICY OF THE GOVERNMENT.

  QUESTION.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Seeing that he is in his place, I wish to ask the noble Earl opposite, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether he has any information to give to the House with respect to the policy which Her Majesty's Government intend
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  to pursue in regard to the expedition to the Soudan, and especially with reference to the announcement which appears this morning, that orders had been given for the immediate withdrawal of General Graham's forces from Tokar, and the littoral of the Red Sea?
  EARL GRANVILLE: In answer to the Question of the noble Marquess, I have to say that I am aware of the report that appears this morning, stating that orders had been given for the withdrawal of the troops from the littoral of the Red Sea. I can only say there is absolutely no foundation for it.

ENGLAND AND RUSSIA—VOYAGE OF THE PRIME MINISTER.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD STRATHEDEN AND CAMPBELL: My Lords, I rise to ask the Government, according to the Notice I have given, Whether the reports which appeared in September last, as to the visit of Mr. Gladstone to Copenhagen were well-founded; and, whether, if they were well-founded, he had received instructions from the Foreign Office to direct him? Not only have I no desire to address the House at length, but I have determined to avoid it, because the reply of the Government may lead to subsequent proceedings, on which opinions would more properly be given. It is only necessary to observe that the reports, of what is alleged to have taken place at Copenhagen, were uniform in nearly all the journals of the United Kingdom and the Continent. It is admitted that no event during the autumn produced more criticism and reflection. But still, officially, we know nothing whatever. If the accepted statements were untrue, it is just to the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury to mention it. If, while they are well-founded, he had instructions and proceeded on some kind diplomatic mission, it is just to him to mention it. If the incident arose, but rests on his responsibility alone, it is just to the remainder of the Cabinet that such a declaration should be given. No doubt, I am exposed to the remark, that during the last four weeks the subject might have been alluded to; but Parliament has been so much absorbed by the vicissitudes of Egypt, that there appeared to be sufficient reason for delaying it. I

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  therefore put the. Question on the Paper, and remind the Government that it cannot be disposed of by levity or persiflage, although it may admit a satisfactory reply.
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I am extremely obliged to my noble Friend (Lord Stratheden and Campbell) for the solicitude which he has shown for Mr. Gladstone on the one hand and for his Colleagues on the other, and I hope I shall treat the subject with all the gravity—though it is a little difficult to treat it with gravity—that it deserves. In his Question, the noble Lord asks me whether the accounts published in September last were well founded? Now, my Lords, if I recollect aright, the accounts of that meeting were so very numerous, and contained so exceedingly different versions of what was supposed to have passed, that I am glad my noble Friend has spared your Lordships the infliction of hearing them read. However, as I have said, they were exceedingly numerous and exceedingly different, and I did not know, until I heard my noble Friend's speech, which of them his Question referred to. I cannot help being a little surprised that my noble Friend, with his well-stored mind, and the attention which he has paid to public affairs, should have thought it possible, after six months' reflection on the circumstances, that either Mr. Gladstone should, without the knowledge of his Sovereign and his Colleagues, have undertaken a diplomatic negotiation on his own account; or, on the other hand, that the Government, wishing to come to some understanding with the Court of Russia, should have taken such a mysterious mode of carrying out their purpose as to send the Prime Minister out in an enormous steamer to carry out their object. I happen to know the facts of this matter, and they are these. Mr. Gladstone accepted an invitation from Sir Donald Currie to take a cruise on the West Coast of Scotland. Owing to the speed of the vessel it arrived at the Island of Orkney sooner than it was expected to do. One of the guests of Sir Donald Currie—not Mr. Gladstone—expressed a strong wish to be taken to see a little of Norway. Sir Donald Currie consented; Mr. Gladstone did not object, and, being at Norway, they were tempted to extend their voyage
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  further on to Copenhagen. As regards the Emperor of Russia and his suite, and Mr. Gladstone and his friends, not a single word on any political subject passed of any kind whatever. I am really not sure that it is quite respectful to your Lordships, or to the Prime Minister, to give these details about a holiday trip taken immediately after the termination of a hard Session. They will, however, serve a useful purpose in disabusing my noble Friend's mind of the mysterious views which he entertains with regard to this question.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE: I must say that I think the noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville) has treated us to an extremely pretty and interesting nursery tale.
  LORD STRATHEDEN AND CAMPBELL: The noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs has been inaccurate in speaking of my "mysterious views" on the occurrence. As yet I have refrained from giving my views upon it. But I rose again only that no error may exist as to the answer of the noble Earl and of the Government. I understand it to be that the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury proceeded to Copenhagen with no instructions from the Foreign Office?
  EARL GRANVILLE: Absolutely none.

LAW AND POLICE—THE RECENT DYNAMITE OUTRAGES.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD WAVENEYinquired, Whether there would be any difficulty in examining luggage of passengers on sea-going steamers before disembarkation; and whether it would not be practicable to examine all luggage tendered for deposit at cloak rooms at railways or other public places? He was aware of the difficulty there might be in making any premature statement; but he put these Questions in the interest of the public, for in the present agitated state of the public mind, when they were discovering, day after day, a determination on the part of a certain mysterious body of conspirators to inflict grave injury upon persons and property, and to carry devastation, if possible, and certainly cause distrust and suspicion among the community at large, he thought something should be done to prevent a recurrence of such outrages, to counteract the risk

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  to public safety, and to obviate the possibility of, he would not say plunging the country into war, but a state of suspicion and diplomatic friction with the Government of the United States of America. The change which he thought desirable was that all parcels brought to a railway station for safekeeping should be thoroughly examined before they were received on deposit instead of after. He had been told that there might be some difficult in carrying out the examination of luggage as suggested in his Questions, owing to the number of parcels; but he submitted that no local difficulties ought to be allowed to stand in the way of any possible precautions against a great public peril. The terror and apprehension caused in the public mind should be removed as soon as possible; and if this were done, the conspirators would not likely take part in any enterprize which involved so much danger. In the proportion of three to two the Railway Companies would, he believed, carry out a preliminary examination of all luggage left at their stations. He considered that if they continued to permit these terrors to be cast broadcast amongst the population, a very serious responsibility would rest upon them. In the plan which he suggested an attempt was made to meet the evil before it reached our shores, and if it reached our shores, the resolute, stout-hearted action of the Railway Companies would intercept this mischief at its source, and minimize the risk which the public suffered at present. At the present moment, it was comparatively easy to evade the vigilance of the Custom House authorities, as, notwithstanding all their precautionary measures, contraband goods found their way from the ship to the quay, and from the quay to all parts of the country; and, in his opinion, all ocean-going steamers should be carefully searched on arrival. These precautions would, he thought, be quite justified. He was the more concerned because of his strong sense of the deterioration that had been wrought in the public spirit of Ireland by the committal of outrages.
  EARL GRANVILLE: In answer to the Question of my noble Friend behind me, your Lordships will not be sorry to hear that the objects implied in the Question put to me have not escaped the attention of Her Majesty's Government, and especially of the Home Office. All
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  I think it necessary to add is this. The noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Salisbury) and I have sometimes had friendly discussions as to whether reticence is reasonable or unreasonable on the part of Her Majesty's Government, as to which we may not be always in agreement; but I appeal with some confidence to the noble Marquess and noble Lords behind him, and to noble Lords behind me, whether it is not desirable that some reticence should be observed both in respect of questions and of answers as to the precautions which the Executive are bound to take in regard to the dastardly outrages which are being perpetrated.

  MEDICAL ACT AMENDMENT BILL. [H.L.]
  A Bill for the consolidation and amendment of the law relating to medical practitioners—Was presented by The Lord PRESIDENT; read 1a. (No. 23.)
  House adjourned at Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.