Lords Sitting of 19 June 1884

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading — Improvement of Lands (Ecclesiastical Benefices) * (131); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 2) (Districts of Dorking and Hendon, &c.) *(132).
Second Reading —Benefices (Tiverton Portions) Consolidation Amendment (72).
Second Reading —Committee negatived —Consolidated Fund (No. 2).*
Committee —Report—Summary Jurisdiction over Children (Ireland)* (104); Bankruptcy Frauds and Disabilities (Scotland) * (101); Sea Fisheries Act (1868) Amendment * (125); Metropolitan Police* (118).
Report —Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders* (70); Great Seal (83).
Third Reading —Royal Military Asylum Chelsea (Transfer) * (114), and passed.

CORK BUTTER MARKET BILL.
(The Lord Fitzgerald.)
CORK BUTTER MARKET BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a." —(The Lord Fitzgerald.)
  LORD EMLY: My Lords, my excuse for troubling your Lordships about this Bill is that, as the Cork Butter Market rules the price of butter throughout the South of Ireland, it can hardly be dealt with as an ordinary Private Bill. It excites the interest of the Munster dairy farmers much more than the great measure which next week will probably occupy
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  your Lordships' attention for many days. I must say, at the outset, that I am quite as anxious that this Bill should become law as my noble and learned Friend the Lord Justice of Appeal (Lord Fitzgerald) who has charge of it. My object is to induce your Lordships to agree to an addition to it which will, I feel sure, conduce to its well working, and would satisfy—I think I can show—all the reasonable requirements of the butter producers. The Cork Butter Market is a peculiar one. In it the producer of butter does not deal directly with the exporters, but sends his butter to a broker who sells it for him. The market has been governed by a close Corporation, consisting of brokers and merchants. Irrespective altogether of the quality of the butter, the broker is paid on each cwt. He sells 1s. 3d., and the exporter 1s. 4d., besides certain other perquisites. The butter when received is inspected by officers appointed by the Trustees, and the Inspector who values and classifies it is always accompanied in his inspection by the broker to whom it is consigned. The same price is paid for all the first-class or second-class butter, so that there is no inducement to the producer to make butter of any higher quality than that which will entitle it to the first brand. Some attempt has been made to establish a higher class butter; but its operation has been plight. The result of this system has been disastrous. There certainly is not in the United Kingdom—I doubt whether there is in the world—land capable of producing better butter than Limerick and some of the adjacent counties; yet while the import of Danish butter has in 20 years increased from 300,000 lbs. to 2,000,000 lbs., Irish butter has been almost entirely cut off from the London Market. The Duke of Richmond's Committee had reported—
  "The present arrangements of the Cork Butter Market have evidently tended to reduce the value of the higher classes of butter and to unduly raise the value of the lower classes."
  It has been well described as the best market for bad butter and the worst for good. Under these circumstances, a deputation of a most influential character, headed by my noble Friend (the Marquess of Waterford), waited on Earl Spencer, and the result of that deputation was the introduction of the present Bill, framed by my noble and learned

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  Friend the Lord Justice of Appeal, by the Corporation of Cork, except in one particular. The Bill seems to be an excellent and admirable one. It creates a new Governing Body. It requires that within six months a new code of bye-laws, to be approved of by not less than two-thirds of the Trustees, be formed; and it gives power to the Privy Council, in case these bye-laws are not framed, to direct the Local Government Board to prepare them. It requires, also, that an open market be established, to which all who wish it may carry their goods. But, my Lords, my experience teaches me that the best laws, if not administered by those who desire to carry them out in the spirit as well as the letter, avail little. I cannot consider the constitution of the Board of Trustees fair to the producers of butter. There are to be six representatives of the brokers, six of the merchants, three of the Corporation, and six appointed by the County Cork Grand Jury, 15 to represent the non-producers, six to represent the producers. I cannot think that this is a settlement, to use Earl Spencer's words, satisfactory to the producers of butter. The only change that I desire to be made in this Bill is to add to the Board of Trustees three dairy farmers, selected by the Grand Jury, having each in their possession for the last year at least 30 cows. That change will, I think, give confidence to the farmers in the fair working of the market.
  THE MARQUESS or WATERFORDsaid, he thought that the Bill was most decidedly a step in the right direction. Although some of their Lordships, by merely reading its title, might imagine it referred to only a small matter, yet it was one of the greatest possible importance to Ireland. The Cork Butter Market, in fact, regulated the price of butter throughout the country, which, as their Lordships were aware, was one of the most important productions which came to this country from Ireland. Last year he attended a deputation to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland on the subject; and he (the Marquess of Water-ford) believed the present Bill was in some respects due to, and was an answer to, that deputation. The state of the Cork Butter Market, in its present form, left much to be desired. It was governed entirely by a close Corporation; in fact, their Lordships would
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  hardly believe that seven exporters and seven brokers possessed the entire control of the market. Butter was often stored away by these buyers for some time, and then it was sent into England branded as Cork "firsts," with the inevitable result that the Irish, butter got a bad name. The Bill under their Lordships' consideration, although it promised an improvement on the present system, was not, he was afraid, altogether satisfactory. There was, however, a distinct improvement on the old Committee of seven brokers and seven buyers. They were to be reduced to six each, and members, to be nominated by the Grand Jury, were to be put on the Committee. For his own part, however, he thought the producers should be represented as well, and this had been recommended by his noble Friend (Lord Emly), who urged that three producers should be nominated to serve on the Committee. He thought the thanks of people in Ireland were due to his noble Friend and the noble and learned Lord opposite (Lord Fitzgerald) for the trouble they had taken in, the matter. He hoped the noble and learned Lord would accept the very moderate proposition that had been made; and he would further recommend that any decisions arrived at by the Committee in regard to the regulation of the market should be laid on their Lordships' Table.
  VISCOUNT POWERSCOURTcordially endorsed the views expressed by the noble Marquess, and expressed a hope that the Bill would not meet with any opposition at their Lordships' hands.
  THE EARL OF LIMERICKsaid, there was a very considerable feeling as regarded this Bill. It had a peculiarity as an Irish Bill, and that was that everybody appeared to wish it well. He wished to point out that the Irish landlords joined with the farmers in expressing a desire to increase the number of the Committee of Management of the market by adding three Irish butter producers to it. He hoped that the Bill might become law, but that the Amendment would be introduced into the measure in the interests of the consumer and producer.
  LORD FITZGEEALDsaid, that he desired to explain his connection with the Bill in a few words. Complaints had been made of abuses alleged to

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  exist in the Cork Butter Market, and a weighty deputation, headed by the noble Marquess, waited on Earl Spencer. The Lord Lieutenant had taken the matter into his consideration, and had stated to that deputation that the matter was one which ought to be dealt with by the Corporation of Cork in conjunction with the butter merchants and exporters. His Excellency suggested that they should come to such an agreement as would remedy the evils complained of, thinking it undesirable that the Government should interfere in a matter of this sort except in the last resort, and then only in the event of its being proved that substantial injustice was being done to a class of persons unable to look after their own interests, or that the existing arrangements were such as materially to retard the development of an important branch of industry. The Corporation, acting on His Excellency's suggestion, promoted a Bill against which many Petitions were presented. He (Lord Fitzgerald), having been requested to act as arbitrator between the parties interested, had at first refused, but finally, at the request of the Lord Lieutenant, consented to act, and having received the statements of witnesses before the Richmond Commission, and a variety of Reports, he proceeded to Dublin, and there held a careful and full inquiry. From the evidence it seemed that the parties were agreed that legislation was expedient, and he decided that it was essential that the market should be established on a firm legal basis, and for that purpose receive the sanction of Parliament, but that it should be left as far as practicable to the guidance of its Governing Body—a body untrammelled by unbending Legislative Rules. The noble and learned Lord then gave, in effect, the terms of his award upon which the present Bill had been founded. If the question had come before a Select Committee of the House, its consideration would have occupied months, and although a great deal of money might have been spent, no result might have been obtained. Such had been the fate of a Water Bill promoted by the Corporation of Newry, upon which £14,000 had been spent. No one up to the present had said a word against his award; the Bill founded on it had passed the House of Commons without opposition, and there had been no
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  Petitions against it. The city and the county of Cork, and the county of Kerry, the two most important counties concerned, were in favour of the measure. The Amendment proposed by his noble Friend (Lord Emly), to add three producers of butter to the Board of Trustees, he could not accept. The old Management of the market consisted of 21 persons, annually elected, seven by the butter merchants and 14 by the export merchants, a Body voluntary and unincorporated. This Body had managed the market, and made it a success, and had dealt with butter amounting to £1,500,000 in value every year. The property in the market was theirs, as were the profits of the management, and Parliament could not interfere with them against their consent without giving them full and fair compensation. Under this Bill there would be a new Governing Body, and one which he considered would be unexceptional. It had been formed under a compromise. Among the principal objects to be obtained were increased production of pure butter, improvement in its manufacture and quality, increased facilities for its sale in the butter market, careful and impartial inspection and classification, prevention of frauds and adulteration, the collection and diffusion of intelligence respecting improvements in the production, manufacture, and sale of butter, and the establishment of a market or markets containing, as far as possible, the advantages of a free market, with such regulations or restrictions only as experience had shown, or might prove, to be necessary or useful. Six of the new Body would represent the exporters, six would represent the merchants, and six would be selected by the Grand Jurors of the county of Cork, and three more would be selected by the Corporation of Cork from the merchants of the highest respectability not connected with the butter trade, making in all 21 members of the Committee to manage the market; and he might remind his noble Friend that those elected by the Grand Jury would represent the butter producers, and so would the exporters or brokers, whose great object, would be that the best butter should be produced and brought to market, and the largest quantity of it sold and exported. Under Clause 34 provision was made to secure competency and skill on the part of the Butter Inspectors.

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  Penalties, would be imposed for counterfeiting brands and the power of issuing search warrants given in cases where fraudulent practices were suspected. Provision was also made for the auditing of the accounts of the Trustees. The Bill had been prepared with great care; it had been improved in the House of Commons and also by the Chairman of Committees; and he had no hesitation in saying that he entertained a hope that if it passed in its present shape it would establish the Butter Market of Cork as the best and the largest in the world. The Bill represented an experiment of importance—-that was, whether local Bills of this and a similar character might not be investigated by a local tribunal, the facts ascertained, the character of the measure agreed on, and then brought before Parliament for its sanction. The expenses of the investigation in Dublin had been nil, and the cost of the promotion of this Bill before Parliament would be represented by a few hundred pounds in place of many thousands.
  THE EARL OF LONGFORDregretted that the noble and learned Lord who had just spoken was opposed to the proposal that the constitution of the Board should be moderately fortified in the way suggested. He hoped that before the stage at which Amendments could be moved was reached the matter would be reconsidered.
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)said, that it was important for those who knew the extreme necessity for some reform in the Cork Butter Market to consider that this was a Private Bill; and he had every reason to believe that if their Lordships altered it in the way proposed, the promoters, the Corporation of Cork, would withdraw it, and things would be left as they were before. That would be a great misfortune.
  Motion agreed to;Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed.

BENEFICES (TIVERTON PORTIONS) CONSOLIDATION AMENDMENT BILL.
(The lord Bishop of Exeter.)
BENEFICES (TIVERTON PORTIONS) CONSOLIDATION AMENDMENT BILL.

  (NO. 72.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE BISHOP OF EXETER, in moving that the Bill be read a second time,
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  said, that it was intended to provide a remedy much desired by the clergy and parishioners for certain evils in a parish in his diocese. The parish was very large and had four rectors, who had charge in turn of the whole parish, and of the principal church, and also of a chapel of ease. The result was a good deal of friction, things did not go on well, and the people were very much dissatisfied. The practical object of this Bill was to extend the general law to this particular case.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a." —(The Lord Bishop of Exeter.")
  Motion agreed to;Bill read 2a accordingly.

GREAT SEAL BILL.—(No. 83.)
(The Lord Chancellor)
GREAT SEAL BILL.—(No. 83.)

  REPORT OF AMENDMENTS.
  Amendments reported (according to order).
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, he wished to direct their Lordships' attention to the more Constitutional view of the measure. It was admitted, he believed, that the Bill involved the abolition of the Office of Lord Privy Seal. He held that that Office was of great value, as it was one of those Cabinet posts to which a small salary was attached; and as there had lately been a great growth of Public Business, that growth had a tendency to increase, and it was very difficult for any Cabinet Minister to keep abreast with the mere routine work of his Department. If they added to that work the business of Deputations, the business of the Cabinet, and the Business of Parliament, there remained no time whatever for the consideration of larger and graver questions. The remedy put forward, they all knew, was the division of work and the increase of Cabinet Offices. Anyone, however, who knew anything of Cabinet work must know that a small Cabinet could accomplish more than a large one. The Office of Privy Seal had been specially held by old statesmen, who were not capable of undertaking the heavy labour of a large Department; and it would have been unfortunate if the men who had held that Office in recent years had not taken a part in the Councils of the nation. This was a matter for the Government of the day to decide; but he was sure that a majority of those

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  who were likely to take part in the Government of the country in the future would regret the unfortunate change brought about by the Bill.
  Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT—PARISHES OF ROTHWELL AND YETMINSTER.

  RESOLUTION.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY, in rising to call the attention of the House to the action of the Education Department in forcing a School Board, without notice, on the parish of Rothwell, in spite of the vote of the ratepayers, and at a time when there was no actual deficiency of school accommodation, and when the managers of the National School had offered to provide any additional accommodation which might be necessary; also, to the conduct of the Education Department with respect to Yetminster, Dorsetshire; and to move to resolve—
  "That, in the opinion of this Mouse, such action is contrary to public policy and to the intention of the Education Act of 1870,"
  said, he would state the facts of the Rothwell case. There was in the parish a National School with 510 children, and classed "excellent," also a British School with 175 children. The National School managers offered to supply any extra accommodation needed, and the School Board was negatived at a poll of the ratepayers, notwithstanding which a School Board was ordered to be formed. This order was maintained, notwithstanding remonstrances. A majority of Churchmen had been returned on the Board, and it was now determined to do what was originally intended—namery, build an additional school by voluntary subscription. Mr. Mundella thus failed in his avowed object, but had succeeded in forcing heavy expenses on the parish for Party purposes. Mr. Mundella had objected that the acceptance of the offer of the National Society would have allowed one religious body to monopolize the whole of the school accommodation; but he was fully aware that no religious teaching could take place during school hours. If the conduct of the Education Office had been bad, their arguments were worse; for it had come to this— the Vice President maintained that religion was taught in Board Schools, and the cost of teaching School Board reli-
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  gion was paid out of the rates; whereas the whole cost of teaching religion in Voluntary Schools was paid by private contributions. The country had been wheedled into endowing either a Nonconformist or a new religion in Board Schools, while it had disestablished the Church of England, the Catholic, and the Wesleyan religion in every public Elementary School. In the case of Yetminster, the action of the Education Office appeared to have been even more uncalled for than at Rothwell. The boys were provided for by Boyle's Endowed School, and formed no part of the present contention, which regarded only the girls' and infants' National School. Here the Vicar," owing to his age and infirmities, had been the cause of a School Board being formed. He died six months after this, and the new Vicar and managers were prepared to carry on the school. The School Board offered to accept a transfer of the National School sufficient for the district; but the managers refused to transfer it. The Education Office, declining to accede to the views of the majority of the Board, insisted on their building a new school. The Education Office assorted that there were 120 girls and infants to be provided for, whilst the Vicar could not find more than 70 of school age. Could the Lord President explain this discrepancy? At Staines the Education Office had insisted on room being provided for children of three years old, for which there was no authority under the Act. Complaints were made that the conduct and language of the Education Office was disingenuous. Would anyone, after reading Dr. Crichton Browne's letter in The Times of Monday, say that the replies of that Department in this or the other House were candid? And was it candid of the Vice President, on Monday last, when replying to remonstrances against over-pressure, not to state that in future overpressure would be greatly diminished, since that very day the Law Courts had decided that compulsion as to home lessons was illegal?
  Moved to resolve—
  "That, in the opinion of this House, the recent action of the Education Department with regard to the parishes of Rothwell and Yetminster is contrary to public policy and to tho intention of the Education Act of 1870."—(The Lord Stanley of Alderley.)
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)said, he was glad to be able to give an explanation of the Rothwell and the Yetminster cases. He did not think the Rothwell case raised any difficult controversy; indeed, both were simple cases, in which no new departure had been taken by the Department, and in which it had maintained the policy of the Act of 1870 in conformity with the practice adopted since 1870. He could not go into the question of over-pressure then, but should be ready to do so on a future occasion if desired. The Rothwell case was the creation of a School Board contrary to the view of the majority of the ratepayers. In the case of Yetminster no question was raised, or could be raised, as to the necessity for the creation of a School Board; and the question was, whether a Board having been created, it was to be required to supply the school deficiency, or whether it was to be at liberty to accept the accommodation from a Voluntary School. The parish of Rothwell, for the last 20 years, had been supplied with education by two schools —a Church School and a British School, a Nonconformist School—which supplied education to a considerable minority of_ the parish. The Education Department were compelled to address requirements to the British School, which the latter were unable to fulfil. More accommodation was wanted, which the British School could not supply. The result was that the British School closed its doors. In these circumstances, the Education Department adopted the ordinary course of requiring the parish to set up a School Board. Then followed two important facts. First, the managers of the Church School professed themselves ready to undertake the schooling of the whole parish; and, secondly, a majority of the ratepayers—310 to 255—voted against setting up a School Board; but that majority represented the friends and supporters of the Church Schools; and it was not the duty, and had not been the practice, of the Department to be absolutely governed in such cases by the vote of the majority. The only way in which they could insure that sufficient school accommodation should be provided without delay was by taking the course they had taken. In "another place," Mr. Forster had given a long list of cases in which the Department had acted
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  in opposition to the majority of the ratepayers. In a parish under the circumstances of Rothwell, it would not have been proper to allow the whole management of education to be centred in one religious body, which, in that case, happened to be the Church of England, but in other cases might be a Dissenting body, or might be the Roman Catholic Church. Such a course would have completely changed the conditions which had existed for 15 years, and would have raised much ill-feeling, and caused grave difficulties in the parish. It had even been stated that if they were to increase the Church School, it would be impossible to compel Dissenters to send their children, and that many of them would be fined rather than do so. If, in such a case, when the creation of a School Board was the best way of dealing with the matter, they had instead provided one Denominational School, they would have outraged the feelings of a large, portion of the parishioners. The case of Yetminster was a singular one. The managers of the National School, which was a girls' and infants' school, unanimously determined to close the school. The clergyman of the parish was chairman of the managers, and being unable to execute repairs, proposed to hand over the education of the parish to a School Board, which was accordingly set up. That clergyman died, and his successor wished to carry on the school again on the voluntary principle. The School Committee and the School Board applied to the Department to be allowed, instead of the School Board's carrying on the school, to accept the revived school. The Department had, however, been obliged to decide, in accordance with many former decisions, that they had no power to accept such an offer. Under the terms of the Act, when once a School Board had been created, the Education Department was bound to require that the School Board should itself supply the deficiency of school accommodation on account of which it was brought into being. Doubts had been expressed on this point, and a case had been prepared and laid before the Law Officers of the Crown, who were asked to advise whether there was an imperative obligation on the Education Department to require that the deficiency should be supplied by the School Board, or whether the Department could accept

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  the offer of volunteers to supply the requisite accommodation. He was confident that there had been no change of policy on the part of the Education Department.
  LORD NORTONcomplained of the action of the Privy Council. They had, in the first place, caused a deficiency of school room at Rothwell, and then, when a body of persons came forward to supply the deficiency, the Department refused the offer on the ground that it was made by Church people, who were the majority of the inhabitants there. Now, he wished to ask what right the Office had to refuse any such offer, and especiallyuponreligiousgrounds? There being a Conscience Clause to protect all children, it was impossible to say that the minority of Dissenters could not use it, or that their feelings would be outraged. He understood the noble Lord's statement to amount to this—that when Church people were a majority in a parish, and offered to supply any schoolroom deficiency, the Department had no alternative but to refuse that offer, and compel the formation of a School Board. That was contrary to the spirit of the Act and to the interests of education. The Yetminster case involved a still greater assumption on the part of the Office—that when once a School Board was formed, no other body, however much it was desired by the parish, could afterwards supply any school-room. He could not think the Law Officers would indorse this bye-legislation of the Office.
  THE EARL OF DENBIGHsaid, it was clear, from the Vice President's statement, that a new School Board could always supplant the Voluntary Board. He was glad to know that in the present case many Dissenters had sufficient respect for religion to stand up against the action of the Board in this matter. When once a School Board got into a parish, there it would stay, if the interpretation placed on the Act of 1870 by the Department was correct.
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PBESIDENT of the COUNCIL)said, that the Education Department had no confidence whatever in this case that the deficiency of accommodation could have been supplied by the Voluntary Schools; and he believed that, under all the circumstances of the case, they had done their duty by the parish. The noble Earl said it would make no difference what-
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  ever to Nonconformist children, whether they were required to go to a Board School or a National School. But the fact was, that a Nonconformist child in a Board School had religious instruction. [Lord ELLENBOROUGH laughed.] He did not know whether the noble Lord understood what he was laughing at. In a Board School a Nonconformist child obtained religious instruction of a kind which suited it, because creeds and catechisms were not taught; but in a Church School he might have to walk out while the religious instruction was given. The difference, therefore, was between a child receiving the religious instruction he required, and not receiving any religious instruction at all.
  LORD ELLENBOROUGHremarked, that he had heard of a case in a Court of Justice the other day of a child nine years of age who had never heard of the Deity, did not know what the New Testament was, and did not know the alphabet.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY, in reply, said, the Lord President had cited precedents for this arbitrary conduct from Mr. Forster's administration; but could he cite any such under Lord Sandon? Why were popular votes overridden only by Liberal Administrations, and, if so, what was the use of extending the franchise?
  EARL DE LA WARRsaid, with regard to the noble Lord's (Lord Carlingford's) remarks as to the religious education being given in Board Schools, in the Birmingham School Board no religious education was given at all.
  On Question? -Resolved in the negative.

HOUSE OF LORDS — ELECTRIC LIGHTING.—QUESTION.
LORD GREVILLEasked, Whether any steps are about to be taken as to the lighting of this House with the electric light; also, having in view the very great importance of obtaining the best and most economical results, whether Her Majesty's Government will ask the leading Companies in Great Britain to tender for the same?
LORD SUDELEY: In reply to the noble Lord, I am unable to say exactly when this House and Libraries will be lit up by the electric light; but the First Commissioner of Works has at

785
present got the lighting of both Houses under his consideration. As a considerable amount of money will have to be expended, the plans connected with it naturally require most careful looking into; and, as a portion of the work has been carried out by one Company, the First Commissioner is unable to say to what extent it will be possible to invite public competition, but he hopes he may be able to do so.

MOROCCO—THE SHERIF OF WAZAN— A FRENCH PROTECTORATE.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  EARL DE LA WARRasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether he can give any information with regard to the present position of affairs in Morocco, and the relations now existing between that country and France; also, whether any Papers and Correspondence can be laid upon the Table of the House? The noble Earl said, that the reports which had reached them relative to the state of affairs in Morocco and the recent action of France could not but cause very grave apprehensions. He wished in no way to sound a note of alarm, as what was stated in that House might sometimes produce a greater effect than was intended, but there were occasions when silence became a fault. He thought that what had taken place was sufficient reason for his asking the noble Earl the Questions on the Paper. He fully recognized the Constitutional principle that the Foreign Policy of this country was in the hands of Her Majesty's Government — that by them Treaties might be made or annulled, and war even declared, without consulting Parliament. He would only say that Constitutional powers might sometimes be pressed too far, and they were not without instances of that in recent times which had involved the country in serious foreign complications. He might be told by the noble Earl opposite that a perfect understanding existed between France and Morocco. It might be so; but he wished to ask whether it was not true that a proposition had been made to rectify the frontier between Algeria and Morocco by extending the territory of France to the River Mulaya, thereby making a very considerable addition to Algeria; and whether the French Minister at Morocco, M. Ordega, had
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  not recently admitted to French protection and the privileges of a French subject an influential religious leader, the Sherif of Wazan, who sympathized with the discontented portion of the population in opposition to the Emperor; and whether the French Minister had not received several deputations of Chiefs of Tribes soliciting his protection? As showing in some measure the view taken of the present position of affairs in the country, he would read a passage from a newspaper published at Tangier, The Réveil du Maroc —
  "We are not able to pronounce at present in a definitive manner upon the real bearing of these facts; we may, nevertheless, affirm that the sympathies of Mussulmans for France become more and more keen; the populations, discontented with the administration of their Governors, rally round the Sherif of Wazan, and a movement is caused in Morocco which may lead to an unforeseen result."
  Neither did it seem that all this was disallowed in France. The Journal des Débats said—
  "This is why France desires above everything that a revolution may not take place to disturb the progress of her pacific and civilizing policy in the countries bordering upon her great African Colony."
  It sounded very plausible to talk of civilizing and pacific progress, though he confessed he had some doubts of the advantages of European civilization in Oriental countries; but that was the very justification offered for the invasion of Tunis. It was repeatedly stated by the then French Minister of Foreign Affairs, M. Barthélemy St. Hilaire, and repeatedly affirmed by the noble Earl opposite, that there was no intention of annexation or permanent occupation on the part of France with regard to Tunis; but what had happened? Why, the French were permanently established there, and everything was under French rule. The Capitulations had been abolished, and British subjects, some 12,000 or more in number, were handed over to the jurisdiction of the French Courts. It was impossible to overlook these facts. He hoped that the noble Earl would be able to explain what had taken place. His own apprehensions were that the same thing now beginning in Morocco would go on as in Tunis. These were no longer diplomatic secrets, as they had been made known and published in Italy, and the French movements were closely watched by Spain.

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  Though he did not wish to sound a note of alarm, he thought he had not exaggerated the facts of the case, which, indeed, were patent to all, and could not remain unnoticed.
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I have no doubt that a considerable feeling of anxiety and excitement has been produced in Morocco and also in Spain and in Italy by the reports with regard to the threatening intentions of the French with respect to Morocco. Complaint is also made by the Sultan of Morocco with regard to the French taking the Sherif of Wazan under their protection. I have no official information in regard to what the noble Earl said about other Sherifs seeking the protection of the French, or as to the manner in which any such advances have been received by the French. But I have received, both from Lord Lyons and M. Waddington, the most formal assurances on the part of the French Government that there is no truth whatever in the reports regarding any aggressive intentions on their part, or any wish either to annex or to protect, or cause trouble in any other way in Morocco. They desire the maintenance of the status quo, and the only negotiations passing now between France and Morocco are negotiations with regard to certain affairs in the interior. These assurances are exactly in accord with those which I had previously received from M. Barthelemy de St. Hiliare, M. Gambetta, and afterwards from M. de Freycinet. I have reason to know that these assurances have also been given in the most formal manner to Italy and Spain. We have communicated with our Minister at Morocco, directing him to communicate the assurances in question to the Sultan of Morocco.

AFRICA (SOUTH COAST)—ANGRA PEQUENA.

  MOTION FOR PAPERS.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHmoved for the production of Reports addressed by the Naval Commander-in-Chief on the Coast of South Africa to the Lords of the Admiralty in reference to the Bay of Angra Pequena and adjacent islands and mainland. The noble Viscount said, that he believed that evidence was now obtainable with reference to British rights in the locality to which his Ques-
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  tion referred. He had a copy of a list of Islands which were handed over by the Cape Government to an English firm, and a copy of a document from a Native Chief which made over a portion of the mainland and a large portion of the Bay of Angra Pequena to another Company. He thought these matters ought to be taken into consideration in the negotiations with Germany. He was convinced of the importance of the Bay eight years ago; and he then wrote a letter to The Times, pointing out the great advantages that would result to the mariners of the country if they made use of the Bay. He regretted now that he did not then urge the Government to assert their rights.
  Moved, "That there be laid before this House, Reports addressed by the Naval Commander-in-Chief on the coast of South Africa to the Lords of the Admiralty in reference to the Bay of Angra Pequena and adjacent islands and mainland."—(The Viscount Sidmouth.)
  THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: Since the noble Viscount questioned me the other day, I have looked at the Reports from the Naval Commander-in-Chief at the Cape, and I find that there is no professional Report, in the ordinary sense of the word, upon the Bay of Angra Pequena; but there is a Report of a visit paid by one of Her Majesty's ships to the place in consequence of some apprehended disturbance in connection with rival claims to land. This Report is connected with the negotiations which are proceeding between Her Majesty's Government and the German Government; and, therefore, it would not be expedient to make it public at present.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHwished to say that his remarks on a former occasion had been misreported in some newspapers. He was represented in those papers as having said that there was a resident magistrate at Angra Pequena, whereas what he really said was that a magistrate had been appointed at Wallfisch Bay.
  In reply to The Earl of CARNARVON,
  THE EARL OF DERBYstated that the Papers were in the Foreign Office; but the Government thought that it would not be desirable at present to produce them to Parliament.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVON: In that case, his noble Friend must wait for some time to come; because the communica-

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  tions had been going on for some two years already.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

  IMPROVEMENT OF LANDS (ECCLESIASTICAL BENEFICES) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to prohibit charges for improvements upon Ecclesiastical Lands otherwise than with the consent of the Patron and Bishop—Was presented by The Lord Archbishop of CANTERBURY; read 1a. (No. 131.)
  House adjourned at a quarter before Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.