HL Deb 15 July 1884 vol 290 cc1088-94
LORD INCHIQUIN

said, he rose, pursuant to Notice, to move that the following clause be added to all Tramway (Ireland) Provisional Orders:— No capital authorised by this Act shall become guaranteed capital until it has been certified by the Board of Trade to have been expended on the undertaking: Provided, that the Board of Trade shall not give any less certificate than for a sum of £10,000 (where the capital is over £100,000, or £5,000 where it is under that sum); and the Board of Trade shall not give their final certificate in respect of any such capital until twelve months after the opening of the line for traffic, when, being satisfied that the line has been duly completed and is in working order, they may issue a certificate for the balance of capital authorised by the Act. He had been much, disappointed at finding that in those Provisional Orders there was no provision whatever for the security of the money which it was proposed under the Tramways Act that the counties in Ireland were to guarantee. The Treasury, it was true, took very good care of themselves, because their contribution was not to come into operation until the line had been made and completed. On the other hand, in the case of the counties, the moment the capital was paid up it became guaranteed; so that the promoters had nothing to do but to issue their capital, and as soon as it was paid up it became, as a matter of course, guaranteed by the counties under those Provisional Orders. It was a usual provision in contracts that when a contractor undertook to execute a work he should be paid as the work proceeded; and he thought that contractors who proposed to carry out such large works as were contemplated by those Provisional Orders should have a certain amount of capital of their own. He proposed that the whole of the money should not be handed over to the promoters, or, in other words, to the contractors, because, under that Act, in nine cases out of ten, the promoters and the contractors were practically the same persons; and the object of the promoters was to get the contract for themselves. The power of raising the money should be placed in the hands of the Board of Trade, and should be paid to the promoters by instalments on the certificate of that Board. He asked their Lordships, in the interests of the counties in Ireland, to step in and protect those counties from what he was very much afraid would be a very heavy tax indeed, and which would probably involve them in great loss. Under the present arrangement there was nothing to prevent the promoters, if they were dishonest enough, only expending £50,000 on a line, although they might raise £100,000 in respect of it. Under the old guarantees for railways the guarantee never came into operation until the work was completed, and there was no reason why the promoters of these lines would not be able to raise the money on that condition. He asked their Lordships to remember that the Grand Juries, who were the acting parties in this matter, were a fluctuating body, and that, therefore, there was more need in this case for protection than in the case of a County Board. In large operations of this kind it was not, he thought, too much to ask their Lordships to see that sound men with a fair amount of capital should undertake work of this kind. He thought the proposal he had made was a reasonable one, and trusted that the Government would give their favourable consideration to the matter.

Moved, That the following clause be added to all Tramway (Ireland) Provisional Orders:— No capital authorised by this Act shall become guaranteed capital until it has been certified by the Board of Trade to have been expended on the undertaking: Provided, that the Board of Trade shall not give any less certificate than for a sum of £10,000 (where the capital is over £100,000, or £5,000 where it is under that sum); and the Board of Trade shall not give their final certificate in respect of any such capital until twelve months after the opening of the line for traffic, when, being satisfied that the line has been duly completed and is in working order, they may issue a certificate for the balance of capital authorised by the Act."—(The Lord Inchiquin.)

THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORD

said, he thought it was necessary, when the Tramways Act was passing through their Lordships' House, that some provision should be inserted in order to prevent the money being expended in the manner suggested. At the same time, he could not help saying that if this Motion was carried in its present form it would have the effect of preventing tramways being constructed in Ireland at all. He was, unfortunately, one of those persons who had suffered from his county having given a guarantee; therefore, he was not much in favour of a guarantee. He was aware, however, that railways and tramways could not be made without a guarantee; but he should like to hear the noble Lord suggest some manner in which the counties should be protected, as undoubtedly they ought to be. Every noble Lord connected with Ireland was anxious that encouragement should be given to the working of those tramways; but unless a protection of some kind was afforded to those counties who gave the guarantee in these Provisional Orders, they would prevent the Grand Juries giving any guarantee at all. For his own part, he thought that, as capital was already so difficult to obtain in Ireland, a Proviso of the kind contained in this Motion, with respect to the Board of Trade not giving any less certificate Than for a sum of £10,000 where the capital is over £100,000, or £5,000 where it is under that sum, would have the effect of preventing lines being made. He suggested, in the absence of any proposal from the Government, the advisability of considering whether a smaller sum would not be equally efficacious, say, £3,000 or £5,000. He thought, however, it was necessary that some protection should be given to the counties in Ireland, a protection which ought to have been inserted in the original Act.

THE EARL OF BELMORE

said, there was a tramway in prospect in both of the counties in which he had property, and, subject to the decision of the House on the Provisional Order Bills, the promoters had every reason to hope that the lines would be made; but he was informed that the promoters felt that if his noble Friend's proposition was carried it would be quite impossible for them to raise any capital. It was said that the promoters and the contractors were one and the same persons, and that it was not right that a large sum of money should be handed over to those persons; but if they were one and the same persons, the only way the promoters could obtain capital was by selling their shares. He was afraid, however, if this clause was passed they would not be able to sell their shares, and all the trouble that had already been taken in the North of Ireland would be brought to nothing. With regard to what the noble Marquess had said, something might be enacted which would prevent any misapplication of the money. If that was to be done, it ought to be done by a Public Bill, and not by a clause in a Provisional Order Bill.

LORD LECONFIELD

said, he should support the Motion of the noble Lord. He thought if it were adopted it would be very useful as affording protection to the Grand Juries of the counties, who would become under the Act liable for the completion of the work should the contractor fail; and if it were not adopted by the Government in its integrity, they ought, at least, to make some partial change in that direction.

THE EARL OF LIMERICK

did not think that if the Standing Order proposed by the noble Lord (Lord Inchiquin) was adopted, it would stop tramway schemes. At any rate, he thought it was very important that some protection should be given to the cesspayers. It must be remembered that very large sums were being dealt with under this Act, and that in some cases they would fall on a very poor class of persons. He really did not think, if the promoters of these Companies were acting bonâ fide, that it would be too much to expect that the guarantee would only be for sums actually expended, as suggested in the Motion of his noble Friend. He hoped the Lord President would give a friendly consideration to this proposal.

LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)

said, he had been glad to hear more than one noble Lord pointing out to the House the dangers that would probably arise to the successful working of the Tramways Act if so stringent a clause as that proposed by the noble Lord were to be inserted in every tramway scheme. The Irish Privy Council, who were, of course, familiar with this subject, and who took a deep interest in the working of this Act, had examined the noble Lord's proposed clause with great care, and had come to the conclusion that it would be very unsafe for Parliament to adopt it. They believed that it would be, in many cases, injurious, if not disastrous, to the working of the Tramways Act. The Irish Privy Council had, of course, full power to introduce into these Provisional Orders any clause they might think necessary to secure that the guarantee was only applied to such amount of capital as was properly expended on the scheme. That power they had exercised, and would continue to exercise. They had exercised it in the case of one of the two Tramway Orders at present before the House, and had inserted a clause providing that the capital should only be issued as required from time to time. The effect of passing the noble Lord's clause would be that a different requirement, and very much more stringent, would be inserted in the Order Bills yet to be passed. His noble Friend proposed to lay down a hard-and-fast line for all these Orders. The clause would immediately apply to the two Orders before the House, one of which contained a clause which, in the opinion of the Irish Privy Council, afforded sufficient protection. With respect to all future Orders, the Council would be prepared to deal with them on their merits, and consider what clause ought to be inserted for the purpose of obtaining the object which his noble Friend had in view. But the Privy Council strongly objected to laying down a hard-and-fast line which might be injurious, if not fatal, to all tramway enterprize.

LORD INCHIQUIN

said, the Privy Council, he had no doubt, would, in future, exercise their power in this matter; but the Bills now before the House would not again go before the Privy Council, and in those Bills there was no security of any sort for the cess-payer. This Act was so entirely novel, that he did not think the Grand Juries quite understood or appreciated it. On the particular Grand Jury of his county he thought there were very few people who understood the matter at all. They did not appreciate the various points to be considered in connection with it. There was one provision for securing the county which the Grand Jury desired to be inserted; but when he, as an appellant, came before the Privy Council on the matter, he was ruled out of Court, as the point was not referred to in his appeal. He was perfectly willing to alter the figures in his Motion, if the Government desired; but if they did not consider the matter favourably, he would be bound to go to a Division on it. He did not at all desire to defeat the Bill by a side-wind; all he was anxious to do was to protect the county.

THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)

pointed out that in one Bill a provision was inserted that the money should be advanced from time to time as required, and asked why that provision should not be inserted in both Bills?

LORD FITZGERALD

appealed to the noble Lord to withdraw his Motion. He believed it would be most mischievous in its effects. In his opinion, if the guarantee were withheld for a year great difficulty would be experienced in obtaining local capital. This was what one who had a good deal of experience wrote to him regarding that matter— Lord Inchiquin has a Motion in the House which would destroy all our tramway undertakings.

LORD INCHIQUIN

Name.

LORD FITZGERALD

said, the name of the gentleman was John Walter Burke, a man of great intelligence and great experience. The proposition of the noble Lord was altogether contrary to the spirit of the Act of last year, and he was afraid that the mere fact that it was proposed there would have the most injurious effect on the financing of those undertakings.

LORD INCHIQUIN

asked whether the noble Lord the President of the Council did not think the contractors should be paid on production of the certificate of the Board of Trade?

LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)

said, it did not appear to him that the Board of Trade ought to be brought in at all; and he should object to making use of the Board of Trade for this purpose.

LORD INCHIQUIN

said, that if the noble President postponed the consideration of the Tramway Orders he would withdraw his Motion, and bring up another that might meet the views he had expressed, otherwise he would press his Motion to a Division.

LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)

said, he would not object to postpone them for a very short time.

LORD INCHIQUIN

suggested a week.

LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)

That is too long.

THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)

explained that the Orders could not be committed to the Whole House before next week.

Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.