HL Deb 10 July 1884 vol 290 cc655-65
VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH

, in rising to move for— Returns of fighting and sea-going ships of the Royal Navy, specifying also the state of forwardness (1) of ships now building; (2) of those under repair; (3) the condition of the boilers of ships in commission; (4) the draught of water of each ship known and estimated when all her weights are on board; and, for a Return of the new boilers now in store in Her Majesty's Dockyards, and of boilers in a state of preparation, said, he wished to examine some of the statements that lately fell from the noble Earl the First Lord of the Admiralty (the Earl of Northbrook), and especially his assertion that the present Government had gone far in advance of their Predecessors in laying down ships. It was, no doubt, quite true that there were no very large shipbuilding operations carried on by the late Government; but there were many ships in a bad state of repair, and they laid out large sums of money in that way. Not only that, but the circumstances of this country were then altogether different to what they had been since the present Government came into Office. The noble Earl forgot to state that the whole gravamen of the charge against the Admiralty was that, whereas from 1874 to 1880 we were on excellent terms with Franco, and had no apprehension of serious naval difficulties, the case was different now. In 1882–3 the French Government spent £2,000,000 additional on its Navy. He (Viscount Sidmouth) did not wish to say that that outlay was made with any hostile intentions towards this country; but he did say that an advance of £2,000,000 in the French Naval Estimate for shipbuilding was an incident which should have made Her Majesty's Government bestir themselves in the matter of shipbuilding. But it was not the French Navy alone that was increasing. The German Navy was increasing in an extraordinary degree, and was being met by no corresponding increase in the English Navy. Spain, too, was moving in the same direction, having nearly doubled the number of vessels she formerly possessed, the result being that she would soon possess a very considerable Naval Force. Great energy, too, was being exerted by Italy in the matter, and she had turned out some of the most powerful iron-clads in the world. Other countries in all parts of the world were also increasing their Navies. France had got now a very important Naval Station within a short distance of Malta, and was active in all parts of the world. He mentioned these matters, not as wishing to urge Her Majesty's Government to regard those steps with any jealousy, but simply as showing the importance which was attached by all the Powers of Europe to an increase of Naval Force as Colonies spread, and as we became more and more connected with distant parts of the world. There were 110 vessels on active service in Her Majesty's Navy, and 500 returned as effective; but at least 71 ought to be struck off the list as utterly unworthy to appear there as seagoing fighting ships. As the matter now stood, there was about an equal number of first-class English and French vessels. We might give ourselves, perhaps, the benefit of one more than the French Navy. The Italians had a most powerful array of ships, which might be, in possible events, added to any other Naval Power; and the Russian Navy was by no means an unformidable one. The Returns he moved for would so far satisfy the country by their seeing exactly what the state of the sea-going ships was at present; and he, therefore, hoped the noble Earl would grant them. A naval officer, who had written to him, pointed out that, since 1872, the year 1877–8 was the best shipbuilding year, and that was when the Conservatives were in Office. Naval officers looked back with regret to the time when the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Somerset) was at the head of the Admiralty. The Navy was then in a flourishing condition; but the Estimates were £2,000,000 a-year more than now. That was soon afterwards largely reduced, and no Government had since had the courage to raise it to the old figure again. He was told by naval officers of high authority that, notwithstanding all the large display which we had on paper of seagoing fighting ships, only six first- class ships were worth anything at all for fighting. He believed also that the Reserve Forces, so frequently paraded before the country as an important line of our defence, was really, for fighting purposes, absolutely worthless. In fact, it was hard to speak of it as defensive at all. The ships comprising it would be blown out of the water by certain foreign ships. We used to be able to meet any combined Fleet. He was satisfied that we did not spend enough money in the construction of ships; and, so far as he could see, very little was being done to place the English Navy in that condition of superiority which it ought to hold over that of other Powers. It was well known how long it took to build a vessel now, and he was informed that vessels were now waiting until the best model was decided upon. Another superiority which Continental Navies had over our own was, that almost all their vessels were armed with breech-loading guns, while the vessels of our own Navy were very deficient in that respect. As to the boilers, he asked the noble Earl for a Return upon that subject; and he could see no reason why it should be objected to, unless it were that the boilers were not in such a state as the noble Earl would wish to appear before the country. He himself was afraid, from what he could make out, that the boilers in the ships at present employed were in a very deficient state; and also that, in the event of a large and sudden demand being made for new ones, the supply of boilers in the Dockyards was not such as would enable the Admiralty to meet it. The next question, relative to the draught of large vessels, was, no doubt, obvious, the object of it being to ascertain what vessels of large size were capable, in the event of an emergency, of passing through the Suez Canal. This matter had been taken into consideration by Foreign Powers in the construction of their ships; and he thought it was highly important that the Admiralty should turn their attention to this subject, and take care that, in the event of the necessity arising for naval operations in the Indian and China Seas, a sufficient force was always in readiness and capable of passing through the Suez Canal. He hoped the force of the future would be of such construction and power as would enable Her Ma- jesty's Government, at any time, to send a sufficient force in the event of complications arising with other European Powers. He would also urge the protection of the various stations which were connected with the defence of the Colonies. Anyone acquainted with the position of the Colonies must be aware how very dangerous it would be if an unexpected and powerful force were to swoop down upon them. The Colonial Governments, certainly, were using strenuous endeavours to create a Navy of their own; but, unless they were cordially supported by the Government at home, it was quite impossible that they should get officers of that experience and reputation which would enable them to assume such a position as they ought. The only other point he would urge upon the attention of the House was the enormous advantage which other Powers possessed, in the event of a sudden outbreak of war, in their system of training the seafaring population along the coasts. France had upwards of 170,000 men, more or less, drilled to fight on board ship. Although the seafaring population of this country was, perhaps, superior to that of other countries, that advantage was, to a very great extent, diminished by the circumstance that war ships were not now managed by naval skill alone. It had always been understood that the safety of England depended upon the superiority of her Naval Force. He feared, however, that the country might be caught napping, as it had been in previous wars, the prevalent desire to reduce expenses having affected the Navy more than any other branch of the Public Service. He appealed to the Government to explain to the country that the money spent in the construction of ships was insufficient. Sooner or later more money must be spent upon the Navy; and, in his opinion, the Government would have little difficulty in persuading the country to acquiesce in the expenditure. He begged to make the Motion in his name on the Paper.

Moved for— Returns of fighting and sea-going ships of the Royal Navy, specifying also the state of forwardness (1) of ships now building; (2) of those under repair; (3) the condition of the boilers of ships in commission; (4) the draught of water of each ship known and estimated when all her weights are on board; and for a Return of the new boilers now in store in Her Majesty's Dockyards, and of boilers in a state of preparation."—(The Viscount Sidmouth.)

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

said, that no one had a stronger feeling on the matter than he had, that the Navy of Great Britain should be sufficiently powerful not only to undertake whatever work might be required of it, but that, at the same time, it should be equal to perform all the work which could be undertaken by any other Power in the world. He was of opinion that Her Majesty's Navy was not sufficiently strong, and was not what the country ought to have, unless it was able, in European waters, to meet any combination it might be called on to fight. He considered it was not sufficiently strong to fulfil its duty, if an unexpected strain was likely to be placed upon it; and he should, therefore, like to see a much larger sum of money placed at the disposal of the Admiralty than was possible under existing circumstances. He had no doubt, also, that the noble Earl the First Lord of the Admiralty (the Earl of Northbrook) would be only too glad if he had a larger sum of money at his disposal to increase the efficiency of the Navy. They all knew, of course, that the great difficulty in these cases was not with those who were in authority in the different Departments, but with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who was responsible to Parliament and the country, which made comparisons of the Expenditure of various Governments at election times. For his part he (the Marquess of Lothian) should be only too glad if the Naval and the Military Departments could be taken out of the category of Party consideration altogether, and that the country were given to understand that a sufficient sum of money should be placed at the disposal of the Admiralty in order to make our Navy worthy of the country. Having said that, he was sorry that he could not support the noble Viscount in asking for the two last heads of his proposed Return. The two first heads of the Motion of the noble Viscount, relating to ships building and those under repair, he made no objection to; but he was sorry that the third head, relating to boilers, and the fourth head, having reference to the draught of water of each ship, should have been asked for. What would be the result, if the Return asked for was laid upon the Table? It would immediately get into the hands of the Foreign Powers, which would be most undesirable. No doubt, they all took great interest in the Suez Canal, and he thought the present Government took as much interest in it as they (the Conservatives) did; but if the Return were made, whenever a ship was sent out, Foreign Powers would look at the Return, and would at once see exactly how far such a ship could go. He hoped, under these circumstances, the noble Earl would not accede to the demand for a Return under the two heads he had mentioned. No doubt, the Return would be an interesting one; but he thought it would be better not to have such a Return, however interesting, when they knew that it would give information to other Powers which it was desirable to keep from them. He was sorry that the noble Viscount had thought necessary to cast discredit on the Navy. He said that out of 500 ships at least 71 were only fit to be broken up. It could not be expected that every ship should be in an equal state of efficiency, and his impression was that all these ships were more or less efficient.

VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH

said, he wished to explain that the vessels he referred to were not all fighting ships, but vessels of all kinds.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

said, however that might be, with regard to the Motion of the noble Viscount, he must protest against the idea of issuing forth to the world a Return from which foreign nations could learn the state of the boilers on our vessels, and their draught of water.

THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK

said, that the noble Viscount opposite (Viscount Sidmouth) had suggested that, on a former occasion, he (the Earl of Northbrook) omitted two skips from his enumeration of the number laid down in 1883 by the French Government. The noble Viscount, who referred to the Charles Martel and another vessel, was, however, mistaken in thinking that those ships had been laid down. In fact, he (the Earl of Northbrook) doubted whether, as originally designed, they ever would be laid down. It was true that, in the French Estimates for 1885, money was asked for the construction of part of the ships in question; but the French, in their Estimates, were a year in advance of us. It was of little use to discuss what might be done at the end of this year, or during next year. The question for the public to consider was, what ships were actually being built in France and in England. The fact was that, from 1880 to 1883, we had laid down eight ships to the French four; and in 1884, up to the present time, we had added one, and the French none. He referred only to fighting ships, and did not include gunboats; because many of those being built by France were only suitable for river use. Therefore, so far from overstating the case with regard to the proceedings of the Admiralty, he had rather understated what had been done up to the present time. With regard to the future he would say nothing. When the noble Viscount and the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Lothian) said that it would be desirable that the Admiralty should have an unlimited amount of money to spend on the present type of ships of war, he felt bound to say he was not of that opinion.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

said, he wished to explain that what he said was as to the present state of the Navy.

THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK

said, it would, he thought, be an extravagance to spend £2,000,000 of money in the construction of large iron-clad ships. The great difficulty the Admiralty would have to contend with, if they were granted £3,000,000 or £4,000,000 to-morrow, for the purpose referred to, would be to decide how they should spend the money. The House must be aware, or at least anyone who had paid attention to the progress made in the construction of guns must be aware, that the guns put on board the newest type of ships would be able to destroy any armour which could be put on a vessel. We were now obliged to leave portions of our ships undefended, and to protect only certain vital parts. In every new ship the armour had to be thicker; and unless the vessels were built of a larger size a great portion of them must be penetrable. Therefore, the difficulty at the present time was, whether it was desirable to increase the number of those enormous ships of war; and that was a difficulty felt not only by our Admiralty, but, as he knew, by those who had to conduct the naval affairs of other countries. There was, therefore, a great probability that, in future, the number of these vast and costly machines would not be increased; and he was not prepared to say that, even if the money were voted by Parliament, it would be desirable to spend it for that purpose. Then there was another consideration, which made it doubtful whether it would be wise or politic to spend a great sum of money now upon such ships. Some of the best naval officers in the country thought that, in the event of another naval war, the torpedo would be the most powerful weapon of offence, and would be able to dispose of the most formidable ships in the service of this or any other country. Therefore, it would be very imprudent greatly to increase the number of these enormous machines. The noble Viscount had made some comparisons between the numbers of the French and English Navies fit for service at the present time. For his own part, he (the Earl of Northbrook) always tried to avoid such comparisons. But when the noble Viscount told the House that in first-class ships England and France stood on an equality, or that we exceeded France only by one, he begged to assure the noble Viscount that he was mistaken. It was very difficult to say what a first-class ship was. Some thought that tonnage was the best test, others took another test. But he could assure the noble Viscount that, taking what he believed to be a fair test of what a first-class ship was, so far from the two nations being on an equality in that respect, England had 10 first-class ships to the French three actually ready for service. The noble Viscount and the noble Marquess had alluded to the number of vessels in The Navy List. It was by no means intended to represent that all the ships put in The Navy List were fighting ships. He doubted whether anyone who ever looked at The Navy List supposed that they were. It was perfectly true, also, that ships in the Channel Squadron and the Reserve Squadron, now usefully employed, were not of the latest type, and that, as compared with the most recent class, they would be termed obsolete. But of first-class ships, with the biggest guns, very few existed in the world. Supposing a naval war to break out between two countries, in all probability the first-class ships would be soon placed hors de combat, and the nation that had the greater number of other vessels would be able to sweep the seas. No doubt, there had been some considerable delay in completing ships. The reasons were, the improvement in artillery, the great size of the guns we had to put on board, and the difficulty of completing and making perfect the machinery which was to load and work the guns. It was a great satisfaction to the Admiralty, and it might be to their Lordships, to know that we had no more difficulty in mastering those technical impediments than other nations. But progress must be slow and expensive; for nothing could be more costly than building ships, and making alterations to render them perfect. It was always a question of degree. We tried to build fast; but, when a question of importance arose, it was right to submit to some delay, and go to some expense, rather than turn out a ship in an inferior manner. The noble Viscount had mentioned that our great Australian Colonies had taken the greatest interest in developing especially their naval defences, and that they were now in a condition to hold their own against any probable attack that might be made upon them. He rejoiced at the fact quite as much as the noble Viscount; for there was nothing that the Admiralty had more at heart than to assist, by every means in their power, the most laudable and liberal efforts which the Australian Colonies were making. He was glad to be able to say that, only very lately, one of the ablest captains in the British Navy had gone out to place his services at their disposal, and the Admiralty would be glad to assist them in every way. With respect to the Returns moved for by the noble Viscount, he would that night lay on the Table a Return, which had been presented to the other House of Parliament, in which his noble Friend would find everything which could be properly stated with regard to our ships. He agreed with the noble Maquess (the Marquess of Lothian) that it would not be desirable to publish information as to the state of the boilers of our Navy. By an oversight, some years ago, such a mistake was made; but it was not exactly a proper thing to place such information in the hands of foreign nations. The Admiralty would be glad to obtain such information with respect to the ships of Foreign Powers; and, having said that, he thought their Lordships would see it was hardly advisable to give this information to other Powers. He thought that he could say that, not only in his own opinion, but in the opinion of professional officers of the Navy, there had never been a time when the boilers of Her Majesty's ships had been in a better condition than that in which they now were. In 1874, a Committee had been appointed to make an examination into the condition of the boilers of the Navy, and to make suggestions for their better preservation. The result of that Committee had been a Report, giving elaborate instructions for the preservation of boilers which had been of the greatest value. At the present time there were ships—as, for instance, the Alexandra—now serving their third commission in the Mediterranean, with no diminution of boiler pressure; and, generally speaking, the boilers in the rest of the fighting ships of the Navy were equally good. He would be glad to agree to the Motion in reference to the boilers if the noble Viscount would amend his Motion accordingly; and as to the whole of the rest of the noble Viscount's Motion, he thought that in the Papers which he should have the honour to lay upon the Table the noble Viscount would find most of the information which he required.

VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH

said, that as to the comparison between the two Fleets of England and France, he had gone carefully over both the French Estimates and our own. France had on the Estimates 15 ships of the first class, 12 of the second class, and eight gunboats. These gunboats, of which the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Northbrook) had spoken somewhat contemptuously, were actually very powerful, and the money spent upon them was equal to that spent upon a first-class ship. Against that, as far as he could make out, we had only 10 ships of the first class on the Estimates and 16 of the second. As to the state of efficiency of the French ships, he had, of course, no means of judging; but from the amount of money spent upon them he thought that they were kept highly efficient. Again, in inquiring into the state of the Navies of the two countries, he had found that only 14 of the 26 British ships on the Estimates had longitudinal bulkheads, which were so neces- sary for the safety of a ship, only 14 had steam steering gear, and only 12 had breech-loading guns. The noble Earl had told them it was best to wait. That was all very well if we had time; but war might come at a very short notice, and then we should be at a disadvantage. With regard to his Motion, he would consent to amend it as suggested by the noble Earl.

Motion amended, and agreed to.

Return of the new boilers now in store in Her Majesty's Dockyards, and of boilers in a state of preparation: Ordered to be laid before the House.