Lords Sitting of 4 July 1884

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 4)* (163); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 7)* (164); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 8)* (165); Local Government Provisional Order (Poor Law) (No. 14)* (166); Local Government Provisional Order (Poor Law) (No. 15)* (167); Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (Labourers Act) (No. 4)* (161); Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (Labourers Act) (No. 7)* (162); Indian Marine* (170); Post Office Protection (172); Educational Endowments (Ireland) (173).
Committee—Report—Fisheries (Oyster, Crab, and Lobster) Act (1877) Amendment* (135).
Report—Improvement of Lands (Ecclesiastical Benefices)* (131).
Third Reading—Tramways Provisional Orders (No. 3)* (151); Artizans' and Labourers' Dwellings (Scotland) Provisional Order* (148); Public Health (Scotland) Provisional Order (No. 2)* (149); Newcastle Chapter* (130), and passed.

REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL.
  NOTICE OF QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF LIMERICKgave Notice that when the noble Duke opposite asked Her Majesty's Government the Question which he understood he intended to put to them—namely, Whether they would undertake to introduce a Bill for the redistribution of seats at the first opportunity, and use their best endeavours so that it might come into operation before another General Election? he would ask a further Question of the Government to the following effect:—Whether, if Her Majesty's Government did undertake to introduce a Bill for the redistribution of seats on the first opportunity, it would not be open to them to abandon such Bill if important Amendments were inserted in the other House, or for any other reason, and to force an Election (supposing the Representation of the People Bill were passed this Session) under the extended franchise without any scheme for the redistribution of seats?

EGYPT (TERMS OF THE AGREEMENT WITH FRANCE)—THE VOTE OF CENSURE.—EXPLANATION.
EARL GRANVILLE: I have to apologize for troubling the House again with respect to the anecdote of the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) on Tuesday last; but having rashly promised your Lordships that I would make further inquiries I think it right to mention the result. The noble Marquess said—
"I am told, on very good authority, that the two Gentlemen whose duty it is to marshal the forces of the Government were, during that division, at the door of the Lobby into which the Government and the Opposition went, and that, when asked by Liberal Members which way they were to go, instead of replying with enthusiasm, as might be expected, 'Of course, you are to follow Mr. Gladstone,' they immediately replied, 'The bulk of the Party is going the other way.'"—(3 Hansard, [289] 1777.)
Last night the noble Marquess said that he referred not to Lord. Richard Grosvenor and Lord Kensington, but to Mr. Duff.
LORD ELLENBOROUGH: And Mr. Cotes.
EARL GRANVILLE: I have not the slightest objection to add Mr. Cotes. I stated yesterday that both Lord Kensington and Lord Richard Grosvenor had entirely denied the statement as far as they were concerned. I have now to say that Mr. Duff has written to me as follows:—
"When the Division took place on Monday I was sitting on the Cross Bench by the door, and was obliged to remain there on account of the rush of Liberal Members into the 'No' Lobby. No one appealed to me as to how they should vote; but several Members said in a laughing way—'You had better come with us.' I replied—'The Government go the other way.' From where I was sitting the spontaneous movement of the Party into the 'No' Lobby was so obvious that it would have been useless to interfere either way, and I never attempted to do so."
The noble Lord (Lord Ellenborough) has reminded me of Mr. Cotes; but Mr. Cotes says that he knows nothing of the matter, and that it is entirely without foundation so far as he is concerned. I have again to apologize for wasting your Lordships' time upon this subject; but I think your Lordships will concur with me in expressing a wish that this will not deter the noble Marquess for the future from enlivening our debates by well-placed anecdotes when they occur to him.

THE WEST INDIA ISLANDS—GRANADA, ST. VINCENT, TOBAGO, AND ST. LUCIA—REPORT OF THE ROYAL COMMISSION.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD BALFOUR, in rising to call attention to the Report of the Royal Commission on the islands of Grenada, St. Vincent, Tobago, and St. Lucia; and to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether Her Majesty's Government intended to carry out any of the recommendations of the Commissioners in regard to the future government and internal administration of these islands? said, there was in the Report of the Commission ample justification for the course taken by the Government in appointing it. Those islands had been in the possession of the Crown of this country for a period of nearly 100 years. As their Lordships were aware, works were in progress for the construction of the Canal in the Isthmus of Panama, and this fact would show their Lordships that those islands were likely in the near future to become places of very much greater importance than they were at the present time. Those islands were distant from the Isthmus of Panama not more than 1,000, or, at the most, 1,200 miles. He thought there was also ample evidence in the Report to show that whatever the future intention of this country might be with respect to those islands we had not hitherto adequately discharged our obligations to the people who inhabited them. Considering the position of those islands, their fertility, and their natural resources, it was naturally to have been expected that something more would have been done for them, or, at least, that the people would have been encouraged to do something more for themselves, by the Colonial Office of this country, than seemed to have been the case. Nothing was more necessary for such countries, which depended largely upon the produce of the soil for their prosperity, than a good system of roads. He found from the Report of the Commission that the islands were very badly supplied with roads, and that their prosperity was greatly retarded in consequence of a want of complete arterial communication. In another place the Report, speaking more particularly of the Island of Grenada, pointed out that considerable sums of money had been spent on

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  the roads that existed; that the expenditure had not been very judicious; and that, considering the large sums of money spent on these roads during the past five years, their present condition was very disappointing. The Report also brought out very clearly the defect in the present system of administration. The first question which he wished to put to the Government was to ask what were their intentions, if they had formed any, as to carrying out the recommendations of the Report, and as to the confederation of those islands into one Colony. The Report brought out clearly that the administration was at present unnecessarily costly, and, he thought, not very efficient. This circumstance, he believed, largely arose from the fact that the administration was separate. If the islands were confederated, even if economy was not the result, a very considerable increase in efficiency would almost certainly ensue. The population of the islands was 141,000, and the sum paid in salaries and allowances to officials amounted to £50,889. St. Lucia had a population of 39,000 persons, and it spent £13,800 on salaries and allowances to officials; St. Vincent had a population of 41,000, and spent £13,000; and Grenada, with a population of £43,000, spent £17,000. The Report went on to say that if the present system of administration was continued no further economy was possible. At present, in each island, many different offices were held by the same person. For example, the Inspector of Schools and the Road Surveyor were one and the same person, and magistrates were liable to be called upon to act as Revenue officials. Any hope of reform in this matter must lie in the direction of confederating the islands, and putting the administration of the different islands under one responsible head, with the seat of the Government either at St. George's, in Grenada, or some other place that might be chosen. The size of the islands and the distances between them offered no obstacle to this proposal. The advantages of such a system were obvious. There would be a considerable saving of expenditure and a great increase in the efficiency of the administration. More capable men would be got for the discharge of the duties, while the duties themselves would be rendered more important. There would then be
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  a justification for the separation of those islands from the administration of the Island of Barbadoes, a separation which, as far as he could learn, was ardently desired, because the interests of the Island of Barbadoes were, in some respects, not the same as those of the other islands. This would enable the Government of the four islands and the administration of justice, police, and schools to be united. He did not think there would be any very serious opposition made to this proposal. The Report showed that on several occasions efforts to unite the islands had been made with more or less success. Since 1876 he believed public opinion had advanced in this direction, and that any opposition would be likely to die out if a comprehensive scheme were prepared by the central Government. He desired to know whether the Government could see their way to carry out any such scheme as that recommended in the Report; and, if so, whether they would adopt some plan whereby those living in the islands might be permitted to elect some gentlemen to represent them on the Legislative Council? They would not ask for a large representation; but it was strongly urged that such representation would lead to a closer watch being kept on the expenditure, and to the general advantage of the administration. He also desired to know whether it would not be possible for the Government to offer any encouragement or advice with regard to a plan whereby a loan for road-making, harbour accommodation, and water-supply might be carried out? A large part of the industry of these islands consisted in the growing of sugar, and a great deal of discussion had taken place on the subject of countervailing duties which, might diminish the evil effects of the system of bounties which existed in other countries. He did not wish to enter into that subject now; but he might say that he had never been able to understand what were the real objections to endeavouring to put some import duty upon an article like sugar, when it was made the subject of bounties in other countries which were competing with us and our dependencies. It was the object of these countries to crush out the sugar trade of this country, so as to get a monopoly. If the Colonial plantations were allowed to go out of cultivation, and the

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  production of sugar were given up, it would take several years before the industry could revive, and people would hesitate to embark capital in an industry which had been destroyed by the action of other Governments, while our Government stood by without assisting it. So far as the islands mentioned in the Question were concerned, the mischief, he feared, had, except in the Island of St. Lucia, already been committed. In St. Lucia there was a considerable industry in the exportation of sugar, and he should be glad to hear that something would be done to prevent the sugar industry of that island being crushed out. He made no apology for bringing this matter forward. These islands were important possessions, and when the Isthmus of Panama was open they would become still more valuable. It would be a great pity if, through neglect on the part of the Home Government, and consequent disaffection on the part of the inhabitants, these islands were to pass into the hands of any other, and, perhaps, a hostile Power.
  THE EARL OF POWISsaid, he wished to call the attention of Her Majesty's Government to a kindred question—the state of the islands in respect to the administration of justice. It was at once cumbrous and costly, and constructed upon the lines of the old Courts at Westminster Hall, and out of all proportion to the amount of business they had to transact. The smallness of the White population showed that the mass of business must be more suited to County Court procedure or to that of the Civil Bill Courts in Ireland. Many of the islands were inferior in population to the Isle of Wight. He hoped something might be done to diminish the burden of those Courts, and to render the administration of justice more ready and expeditious.
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, his noble Friend who had just sat down had gone into the general question of the judicial establishment of the West Indies, which he had said was unnecessarily cumbrous and expensive. That, however, was not covered by the Question on the Paper, and as he had not looked into the matter of late he was not then prepared to express any definite opinion upon it. As to the general tenour of the noble Earl's remarks, it was always found, whatever might be done or attempted in the way
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  of economy, that the administration of justice was more expensive, taking it per head of population, in a population which was divided into a number of small and scattered communities than in a population which was composed of a single community. For instance, though one Judge with £5,000 a-year might be able to satisfy the requirements of 1,000,000 of people living within a limited area, if the same population were divided into 20 or 30 small communities at a distance from one another they could not be adequately served at the same rate of expenditure. Moreover, wherever a judicial establishment was suppressed there would be a considerable amount of local prejudice and local jealousy; and if it happened by any chance that there were delays in the administration of justice, there would be a great outcry against the system, and a great demand that the community so dealt with should again have a separate judicial establishment for itself. With regard to the more specific Question raised by the noble Lord who put the Notice on the Paper, he agreed in the general tenour of his remarks as to the importance of this group of islands, though he did not go with him when he said that in consequence of the opening of the Panama Canal they would probably become of more vital importance than they were now. The difficulty which necessarily occurred in such cases as this was that they could not undertake small local works out of the Imperial funds, and that they could not put on any heavy local taxation. It might, no doubt, be said that the money required to carry out the recommendations of the noble Lord might be borrowed; but he did not think that it would be safe to go into a very large expense with borrowed money. In dealing with communities of this class it was necessary to be very cautious in the matter of loans. Their resources did not increase like those of Canada or Australia; and it was not for him to state how far the Government were prepared to go upon the Report of the Commissioners. It would be remembered that there was the group of four islands called the Windward Islands, and also a larger Island called Barbadoes; and, taken in importance as judged by population and revenue, Barbadoes was pretty nearly equal to the

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  other four put together. The recommendation of the Commissioners was that the four smaller islands should be separated from Barbadoes and united in themselves. On receiving that Report he thought it desirable at once to consult the Legislature of Barbadoes. They took up the idea very warmly, and they had undertaken, if this policy should be adopted, to provide an adequate salary for a separate Governor. That arrangement would, he hoped, effect considerable saving. In principle, the Government had decided upon accepting the policy of separation of the four small islands from Barbadoes; but the question of bringing the former into closer union with one another was a work more of detail, and not of so simple a character. He expected soon to have an opportunity of consulting with Sir William Robinson, and he did not think it desirable to go into a question of detail of that kind without having an opportunity of consulting with him and hearing his views upon the subject. Therefore, as far as that part of the Report was concerned, he should prefer to suspend his judgment. He had no hesitation in saying that the general policy sketched out in the Report was one which the Government considered worthy of adoption, and which they desired to carry into effect. It would undoubtedly lead to efficiency and economy. He was ready now to say that the Government were prepared to act upon the recommendations of the Commissioners if there were no insuperable local difficulty; but they could not act in such a matter without taking the opinions of the various local Legislatures concerned, and giving the people interested in the matter an opportunity of considering it.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, he was of opinion that what the noble Earl proposed to do was very reasonable and right. He could not lose that opportunity of bearing testimony to the successful result of the labours of the Commissioners, who had performed their task with singular care and accuracy, and had produced a very valuable Report. Their Report was valuable from the good temper and caution which they had displayed and the sound common sense which had characterized their recommendations. He wished to refer briefly to three points of very great importance
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  —namely, the reconstitution of the Civil Service, the question of taxation upon food, and the burning question of immigration. With regard to the Civil Service generally, he thought it essential that a reduction of expenditure should be made; but he should be sorry to see reduction made in connection with the Medical Service or the Constabulary. We owed a certain duty to the large Negro population and the other ignorant and helpless inhabitants of the islands in question. It was our duty to see that they were provided with medical assistance. Then, with regard to the Constabulary, it should be borne in mind that we had withdrawn our troops from the islands, and that the Constabulary had since then performed their duties efficiently. He could not impress too strongly upon his noble Friend opposite the duty of paying attention to the prisons of the West Indies. In many cases their condition was not satisfactory, and the Report recommended the establishment of one central prison for all the islands. That recommendation seemed to him to be extremely wise. As to the question of taxing food, of course it was generally undesirable to levy taxes of that kind. But the amount of tax which the Commissioners proposed was very moderate, and would press very lightly upon the labouring classes. It must be remembered that if a tax was not levied upon food, the whole of that class would be absolutely free from taxation. Looking at all the circumstances, he agreed with the fairness of the proposal of the Commissioners upon this subject. He came next to the question of immigration. The islands, so fertile by nature, were in many parts uncultivated. The planter threw the blame for this upon the Negro, and the Negro threw the blame upon the planter. The Negro was certainly very indisposed to work if he could possibly avoid doing so. It had been said that a Negro who occupied an acre of land in the West Indies could, in one single month, provide sufficient food for himself and his family for a whole year, besides making a certain amount of money. Eleven months of the year were, consequently, given up to idleness. The Negro population was also said to be diminishing. In these circumstances, the planters were extremely anxious to obtain labour, and were ready to submit

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  to considerable sacrifices in order to obtain it. There could be no doubt that immigration had been successful in British Guiana, Trinidad, and Mauritius. The desirability of further immigration was proved, and the only question to be settled was the very difficult question who should bear the expense, and in what proportion. The recommendation of the Commissioners on this point appeared to him to be a very fair one. He was of opinion that in some matters consolidation would be very much to the advantage of all the West Indian Colonies. It had been said in this country that the Crown Colony form of Government had been expensive, on the ground that the Civil Service Estimates had, during the last 10 or 15 years, nearly doubled their original amount. In reality, no blame for this increased expenditure attached to the form of Government under which it had arisen, because the Crown Colony form of Government had been the means of introducing numberless reforms, which would not have been introduced if that form of Government had not been established. If, for example, the state of the prisons and of the Constabulary was 50 per cent better than it was 10 or 15 years ago, the improvement was due to the existence of the Crown Colony form of Government. He was, therefore, anxious to refute the current fallacy that that form of Government had in these and similar matters been productive of unnecessary expenditure.
  LORD BALFOURsaid, that he did not recommend the expenditure of money from Imperial taxation, nor the expenditure of loans upon works which would be unproductive. He hoped, however, that the noble Earl opposite would not overlook the fact that the Commissioners had said that expenditure was fully justified to improve the harbours, the water supply, and the roads, and that the resources of the islands were sufficient to authorize a loan of £75,000 to be expended for that purpose, which, besides being a benefit to the islands, would be in itself reproductive.

INDIA (BOMBAY)—THE BIKANIR FIELD FORCE.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD WAVENEYsaid, that in consequence of the revolt of the Thakor of
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  Bidasir and other Chiefs against the Maharajah of Bikanir the attention of the Indian Government had for some 18 months been called to the disturbed state of the districts in question, and alarm had been created on our frontier. The Indian Government at length sent out a force for the purpose of restoring order and arranging matters between the recalcitrant Chiefs and the Maharajah. A small contingent of the Maharajah's men accompanied the troops, and the surrender of one of the forts, held by 3,000 resolute men, was effected. That he took to be an exploit creditable to the force and useful to the Government of India, as it enabled them to show that there was at their command a force of military police capable of maintaining order on our frontier and within our frontier. The troops started from their base of operations on the 16th of December, 1883, and the fort was surrendered on the 25th of that month. It struck him that it was one of those operations which did more to impress upon the Indian mind the power of the British arms than larger and more ambitious operations. The first Question he had to ask the noble Lord the Secretary of State for India was, whether any Report had been transmitted by the Indian Government of the operations of the Bikanir Field Force, 16th December, 1883, which resulted in the surrender of the Thakor of Bidasir and other Chiefs in revolt against His Highness the Maharajah of Bikanir and the capture of the strong force of Bidasir on 25th December, 1883? He knew the rule of the Service was that if an officer commanding in the field did not think a particular action of sufficient importance to make a special report upon it, it did not become the subject of special notice. But in India it must have a most unfortunate tendency if any action creditable to the force engaged should be overlooked, instead of having a mark of honour against the name of every man who took part in it. His second Question was, whether it was not desirable that all operations in the Field should be communicated by the Indian Department to the War Office and Horse Guards for the information of the military authorities at home, and for record of war services of officers of Her Majesty's Forces, British and Indian?
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he was sorry to say that he was not aware of any omission in this case until his noble Friend called his attention to it. It was the invariable rule and practice that information of any movement sent home from India was at once communicated to the War Office; but in this case unfortunately, through some oversight, that was not done. The facts were correctly stated by the noble Lord. It appeared that there was a rebellion against the Ruler of Bikanir, and he, being unable to suppress it, applied to the Indian Government, which sent to his assistance 1,800 men, under the command of General Gillespie. They marched into the country, and he was happy to say that there was no bloodshed whatever, and that the troops were not called upon to act beyond blowing up some forts which surrendered. That was the whole, the beginning, and the end of it. He had no desire to depreciate the service rendered by General Gillespie. He might say that the authorities at Bombay had expressed their entire satisfaction with the conduct of the expedition. Colonel Pottinger, Military Secretary to the Government of Bombay, in forwarding (17th January, 1884) to the Government of India a letter from the Quartermaster General respecting the operations of the Bikanir Field Force, states—
  "I am to express the satisfaction of his Excellency the Governor in Council with the judicious and complete arrangements made under the orders of his Excellency the Commander-in-Chief and the Lieutenant General commanding the Mhow division for the service required by the Government of India, whereby success was assured and every precaution taken for the efficiency and health of the troops engaged."
  The Quartermaster General of the Bombay Army, in the communication referred to, says—
  "The Commander-in-Chief desires me to express his Excellency's entire satisfaction with the management of the expedition, which was carried out ably and judiciously by Brigadier General Gillespie. General Hardinge has read with pleasure the favourable report on Lieutenant Coles, R.E., and is glad to record that the conduct and health of the troops were all that could be desired."

POST OFFICE PROTECTION BILL.
(The Lord Thurlow.)
POST OFFICE PROTECTION BILL.

  (NO. 172.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD THURLOW, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, the object of the Bill was to provide an easy process enabling the Post Office to obtain legal redress for a class of offences of more or less frequent occurrence, and for which the only remedy at present was a civil suit for damages. In some cases the damage was only intended, and had not occurred; while in others, perhaps, it was small as compared with what was intended, or with the inconvenience caused to the Department and to the public. For example, at present if a boy put a match into a pillar letter-box he could only be proceeded against for malicious injury, and if no injury was caused he escaped punishment altogether. The penalties provided in the Bill were light, mostly small fines such as would be now imposed on convictions if obtained in suits for malicious injury to property.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Thurlow.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.

EDUCATIONAL ENDOWMENTS (IRELAND) BILL.—(No. 173.)
(The Lord President.)
EDUCATIONAL ENDOWMENTS (IRELAND) BILL.—(No. 173.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL), in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, the subject with which it dealt was one of very considerable interest and importance in Ireland, and one which had had a very strange and melancholy history. For more than a century past the Irish Endowed Schools had been a subject of perpetual complaints and inquiries—the inquiries always to a large extent justifying the complaints—and yet of perpetual inaction. The Journals of the Irish Parliament were filled with complaints of these Schools. Early in the century there was a Royal Commission on the Irish Endowed Schools, and it was reported by the Commission that the schools had not been conducted according to the intentions of their founders. In the year 1813 Sir Robert Peel did something, which certainly was not effectual. He created a body, which was called the Commissioners of Education

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  in Ireland, for the purpose of superintending and controlling the Endowed Schools; but he unfortunately failed to confer upon that body powers which would enable it to perform its duties with success, and the consequence was that that body of Commissioners, for the last 80 years, had—not through any fault of its members, but owing to deficiency of power—carried on a comparatively useless existence. In 1835 a remarkable Committee of the House of Commons sat, under the Presidency of that able educationist, Sir Thomas Wyse, to consider and report upon the subject. In 1854 a Royal Commission was appointed, commonly called Lord Kildare's Commission, which recommended the appointment of a new Board with large controlling powers. Again, in 1870, a Commission, presided over by the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Powis), recommended that these Endowed Schools should be revised upon the English plan. That was the plan upon which the Bill now before their Lordships was framed. All these inquiries, as he had said, had met with the same fate. All the recommendations made had been so many dead letters. The late Government had carried a very important Education Act, of which the friends of education in Ireland thought a great deal—namely, the Intermediate Education (Ireland) Act; but that measure did not touch Endowed Schools. However, in 1878, the Lord Lieutenant—the late Duke of Marlborough—taking, as their Lordships knew he did, a very deep interest in this subject, and feeling the urgent necessity for legislation upon it, adopted the course of instituting one further inquiry. His Grace appointed a Royal Commission, presided over by Lord Rosse, commonly called "Lord Rosse's Commission." At the end of 1880 that Commission reported, and furnished a large and most valuable collection of facts and information; but it made no direct recommendations as to legislation, or as to the means to be taken to remedy the evils which were found to exist, because it was not authorized to make recommendations. The present Bill, he might say, had been drawn up by the Irish Government upon the lines clearly indicated by the Report of Lord Rosse's Commission. The endowments which would come within the scope of the Bill were attached to 278 Primary Schools
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  under the National Board, and to 415 other schools, making a total of 693. Many of the endowments were extremely small; but others were important. The whole amount of landed property possessed by the various endowments was 76,000 acres; and the income derived from that property was something like £56,000 a-year. There were also trust funds upon the whole amounting to £27,000 a-year, making altogether, in round numbers, a sum of rather more than £80,000 per annum. The Endowed Schools which would be dealt with by the Bill were first the Royal Schools—schools which, he hoped, would hereafter be much more important than they were at present. Then there were the Erasmus Smith's Schools, and the schools of the so-called Incorporated Society, which were originally intended for the conversion of Roman Catholics, but which entirely devoted their attention to youthful Protestants. In addition to these there was a large variety of schools managed in various ways. The Royal Schools, which he had mentioned, were, with a good many others, under the supervision of the Commissioners of Education—a body which had been severely criticized both by the last and by former Commissions; but that body itself had been as desirous as anyone outside of it could be to have its powers increased and rendered efficient; and its failings had mainly arisen, as he had said, from want of proper powers. They had, for example, no power to appoint or dismiss a teacher, or even to pay inspectors to go and inquire into the condition of the schools, and none to alter the management and disposition of the endowments. As to the Royal Schools, in order to give some idea of what amount of work they were performing — an amount of work which appeared to all the Commissions and to the Government quite inadequate to what might fairly be expected from them — he might mention that six Royal Schools had, the year before last, an average attendance, all taken together, of 283 pupils; they had an expenditure of £6,500, out of which the sum of £1,300 went for exhibitions and prizes. In some particular cases the contrast between expenditure and result was even more striking than that indicated by the figures just quoted. He took the Royal School of Dungannon, which had an

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  average attendance of 31 pupils and distributed prizes and exhibitions among them amounting annually to £468. That was not an expenditure which ought to be longer tolerated. He might give many cases of abuse among those schools; and, to say the very least, of totally inefficient results obtained from the expenditure of the endowments. He might mention the school in the borough of Swords. It was a curious case. The borough of Swords was disfranchised at the time of the Union; and for some reason or other which he did not quite understand it received from Parliament as compensation for its disfranchisement a sum of money which now amounted to £24,000 in Government Stock, which produced an annual income of £741. That income was professedly devoted to the maintenance of the school, which, according to its foundation and its charter, was established to promote education in the Christian religion, morality, industry, cleanliness, order, and so forth. But how did the endowment perform its services under those terms? The parish had about 2,200 inhabitants, of whom 250 were Protestants, and all the rest were Roman Catholics. The school contained only 63 pupils; it was taught by a Protestant clergyman, and was in all respects an exclusively Protestant school. That was a case which eminently required to be looked into. Without giving further instances, he might say that the £83,000 a-year belonging to the Irish endowed schools was now producing results utterly incommensurate with the benefit which the interests of education ought to derive from such an income. It was known that a large amount of good was being done by the Intermediate Education Commissioners with their comparatively moderate income; and one could well conceive how much support and assistance their operations would receive from the due application of some portion of the endowments of which he was now speaking. Now, it was provided in that Bill that the Commissioners should have power, in framing their schemes, to hand over some of the endowments intended for secondary education to the Commissioners of Intermediate Education, and also to hand over endowments intended for primary education to the National Board in Dublin. It was quite evident that unless assistance
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  could be obtained from those endowments for the object in view, the Commissioners of Intermediate Education would before long make very strong, and, he thought, irresistible application to Parliament for the purpose of increasing their means of carrying on the great work in which they were engaged. There was no more need for inquiry. Inquiries had been conducted ad nauseam. The time had now come for action; and the Government proposed to take action in the same way as it had been taken both in England and Scotland on the subject of educational endowments. The Bill which he had brought in did not attempt to deal directly and in detail by Parliamentary action with those endowments. It did not seek to impose upon Parliament the task of re-organizing them; but, as in the case of England and Scotland, it proposed to create an Executive Commission which would undertake that work. The Bill was framed almost entirely on the lines of the Scotch Endowment Act of the year before last; the powers of the Commissioners and the definition of the endowments which were to be dealt with by the Commissioners were, he thought, almost identical. There was, indeed, one respect in which the definition of those endowments in the Bill differed from the Scotch Act, but agreed with the English Act—namely, that the Commissioners should not have power to deal with any endowment made within the last 50 years. Under that Bill, as in the English and Scotch Acts, schemes would be framed either by the Commissioners or by the Governing Bodies themselves, and would come before the Lord Lieutenant and Privy Council, and be dealt with throughout with the usual forms of notice and inquiry, and with the same power as in former Acts of application to Parliament in the case of an opposed scheme. Every scheme framed would contain provisions for inspection and audit of accounts—a matter which had been long desired, and which was considered to be of vital importance. It was not intended that the Commission should be prolonged beyond the end of 1886. It was not likely that beyond that time there would be work for the Executive Commission. He did not know that he need describe the Bill in more detail; but he trusted that their Lordships would give it a good reception.

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  He could not help hoping that at last Parliament would thus secure to Ireland by means of those endowments for all time to come far greater benefits than had ever been derived from them before. The noble Lord concluded by moving the second reading of the Bill.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Pesident.)
  THE EARL OF BELMOREsaid, he did not intend to oppose the Bill at that stage; but he wished to call the attention of their Lordships to one or two points in the measure. He did not know that the second reading of the Bill was to be taken that day. Although he had heard rumours as to what the Bill proposed to do, he found that the Bill, to a certain extent, did what he expected. There were some things which he had hoped the Bill would have contained, but which he did not find in it. For instance, he did not find that any power was given to the Irish Education Board to sell their landed estates. This power was very desirable, because, although in the present state of Ireland they might not be able to sell them to any great advantage, yet, if a Bill introduced in "another place" should pass, it was not unreasonable to expect that by degrees those estates of the Irish Education Board might be disposed of. They produced £5,000 or £6,000 a-year; but of late years it had been extremely difficult to get any rent. He could not find that this power had been given in the Bill; but he expressed the hope that something might be done in this respect. He believed the provisions of the Bill would give rise to a great deal of discussion in both Houses.
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)said, the suggestions of the noble Earl would be carefully considered before the next stage was taken.
  THE EARL OF COURTOWNasked that some delay should take place before the Committee stage was taken, in order that the Bill might be considered in Ireland.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday the 14 th instant.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Seven o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Eleven o'clock.