Lords Sitting of 11 February 1884

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILL—First Reading—Law of Evidence Amendment* (9).

PRIVATE BILLS.
Ordered, That this House will not receive any petition for a Private Bill after Friday the 7th day of March next, unless such Private Bill shall have been approved by the Chancery Division of the High Court of Justice; nor any petition for a Private Bill approved by the Chancery Division of the High Court of Justice after Tuesday the 6th day of May next:
That this House will not receive any report from the Judges upon petitions presented to this House for Private Bills after Tuesday the 6th day of May next:
Ordered, That the said Orders he printed and published, and affixed on the doors of this House and Westminster Hall. (No. 10.)

ARMY—CONSTITUTION OF THE ARMY.

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  THE EARL OF GALLOWAY, in rising to move an Address for a
  "Copy of the official return from which General Lord Wolseley, G.C.B., quoted in a recent speech at the Artists Volunteers' Dinner, in allusion to 'the whole of the Army at the present
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  moment comprising men of 91 per cent. over 20 years of age, and 20 per cent. over 30; 58 per cent. over 5ft. 7in. in height, and 83 per cent. over 35in. round the chest; and 78 per cent. over two years' service,'"
  said, that the statements to which his Motion referred were made by the noble and gallant Lord on the 26th of January, at the dinner in question, when in the course of some remarks, referring to some unfavourable statements in circulation bearing upon the effective state of the Army, he was also reported to have said—
  "Among other accusations against the Army which I have read is this—that although we talk a great deal about the number of men we can get we do not get them; but during the last two or three days certain figures have been published which nullify this theory."
  As the noble and gallant Lord, however, was quoting from the figures of the preceding 12 months, he was undoubtedly in error, and it was therefore desirable that the matter should be cleared up. He would move for the Address of which he had given Notice.
  Moved, "That an humble Address he presented to Her Majesty for copy of the official return from which General Lord Wolseley, G.C.B., quoted in a recent speech at the Artists Volunteers' Dinner, in allusion to 'the whole of the Army at the present moment comprising men of 91 per cent. over 20 years of age, and 20 per cent. over 30; 58 per cent. over 5 ft. 7 in. in height, and 83 per cent. over 35 in. round the chest; and 78 per cent. over two years' service.'"—(The Earl of Galloway.)
  THE EARL OF MORLEYsaid, that the noble and gallant Lord who had made the statement referred to (Lord Wolseley) was not in the House, and that he (the Earl of Morley) must, therefore, trouble their Lordships with a few observations. The noble and gallant Lord had mentioned to him that, in the speech to which attention had been drawn, he had undoubtedly made use of the figures in the Military Returns for the year ending January 1, 1883, as if they had been the figures for the year ending January 1, 1884. He (the Earl of Morley) need hardly say that he did so inadvertently, and with no intention of misleading the public. Their Lordships must be well aware that, as a matter of fact, it would be impossible, even by this time, to have ready the Returns for the Army up to January 1 of this year. His noble and gallant Friend was, therefore, exceedingly sorry and annoyed that such a mistake should have occurred; but it

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  was entirely owing to a misapprehension. Nor was the mistake due to the fault of any officials at the War Office. His noble and gallant Friend asked for the last Returns, and they were given to him, and he used them. Of course, they could only be the Returns for the year ending January 1, 1883; but, unfortunately, the noble and gallant Lord inadvertently used them as if they were the Returns for the year ending January 1, 1884. He hoped to be able to lay upon the Table, by the end of the next month, a preliminary Return for the Forces at home, which would give the noble Earl a great deal of the information he required. A preliminary Return of that kind was first presented last year, and the precedent was to be followed this Session. It would, in his opinion, be better to postpone discussion on the subject of the quality of recruits until the publication of the Return, and he believed that the figures which would then be laid on the Table of the House would not compare unfavourably with those of preceding years.
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOK, in allusion to a further statement made by the noble and gallant Lord (Lord Wolseley) on the same occasion, that the Army at home was to a certain extent deficient in numbers in consequence of the demand made upon it by the Army of Occupation in Egypt, asked whether there was any truth in the rumour that the Government intended to increase the number of recruits so as to supply that deficiency?
  THE EARL OF MORLEY, in reply, said, that undoubtedly the Army of Occupation in Egypt did lead to a difficulty of the kind indicated; but he was sorry that he could not, at that moment, give the exact figures, or explain the steps which would be taken in connection with the matter. He hoped, however, that the course which the Government had in view would soon be made known, as, when the Estimates were forthcoming, they would supply the necessary information as to whether it was necessary to ask for an increased number of men.
  THE EARL OF GALLOWAYsaid, that when his noble Friend (the Earl of Morley) had said that it would not be desirable to have a discussion on the subject, he at once determined to comply with his intimation. He must, however, at the same time contend it was a
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  matter of very grave and serious importance. That a distinguished officer holding the position of Adjutant General for the Army, who had been selected by both Parties in the State for high command in circumstances of great difficulty, and whose words must, therefore, have great effect on the minds of the people generally, should actually volunteer at a dinner to make a statement with regard to the Army, which now proved to be entirely wrong, was a matter of grave importance. The noble and gallant Lord made it a matter of great importance by having actually volunteered to make the statement in regard to the position of the Army, and which, it now turned out, was entirely erroneous. His noble Friend said that it must have been well known to everybody that the statement was erroneous; but it should be remembered that the speech was made on the 26th of January, 1884, and it had not been contradicted till now, when his noble Friend informed their Lordships that the noble and gallant Lord was talking of the state of the Army as on the 1st of January, 1883. The noble and gallant Lord at the time was answering statements which had been made during the previous two or three months, and quoting figures which had been published, and for the purpose of nullifying those statements. Now, an officer in such a high position should take care to satisfy himself of the truth of the matter before he made a speech of such an entirely erroneous character. However, after the statement of the noble Earl opposite that the Return would be issued as soon as possible, he asked leave to withdraw his Motion.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

METROPOLIS (WATER SUPPLY).

  MOTION FOR A PAPER.
  THE EARL OF LONGFORD, in rising to move for—
  "A Return showing the charges that the several companies supplying water within the Metropolitan District are authorised by law to levy, quoting clauses of Acts of Parliament under which their rating powers are claimed; with sketch map, coloured to show the districts supplied by each company,"
  said, that he had to ask for information which he could not find in a convenient

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  form elsewhere; it was not his object to make a case either against or for any of the water companies. He had no dispute of any kind with the water companies; but he simply appeared in the character of a perplexed householder. He had to pay Queen's taxes, parochial and other local rates, which for convenience of collection were lumped together; and these water rates upon three different valuations of the same premises, none of which corresponded with the rental. The facility with which Parliament had granted rating powers to various bodies and the cheerful growth of the rates levied under the superintendence of those bodies might be aptly illustrated by the case of the London School Board, who were expected to do their work upon a rate of 3d., but whose rate had already reached 8½d., and promised a brilliant future. He would only add that it would be desirable to many persons if the facts as to the rates which were charged by the water companies could be ascertained and made known throughout the Metropolis with certainty; and therefore, without pledging himself to proceed further in the matter or otherwise, he begged to move for the Return above-mentioned.
  Moved, That there be laid before the House—
  "Return showing the charges that the several companies supplying water within the Metropolitan District are authorised by law to levy, quoting clauses of Acts of Parliament under which their rating powers are claimed; with sketch map, coloured to show the districts supplied by each company."—(The Earl of Long-ford.)
  LORD CARRINGTONsaid, that Her Majesty's Government had no doubt that such a Return was required, and would be of practical value. They therefore assented to the Motion, and he could assure the noble Earl that there would be no delay in the preparation of the Return.
  Motion agreed to.

  LAW OF EVIDENCE AMENDMENT BILL. [H.L.]
  A Bill further to amend the law of Evidence—Was presented by The Lord BRAMWELL; read 1a. (No.9.)
  House adjourned at a quarter before Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.