Lords Sitting of 7 February 1884

EGYPT (EVENTS IN THE SOUDAN)—VOTE OF CENSURE.

  NOTICE OF MOTION.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I propose on Tuesday next to make the following Motion:—
  "That this House, having read and considered the Correspondence laid on the Table by Her Majesty's command, is of opinion that the recent lamentable events in the Soudan are due in a great measure to the vacillating and inconsistent policy pursued by Her Majesty's Government."

EGYPT (EVENTS IN THE SOUDAN)—GENERAL GORDON.

  QUESTIONS.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I have deferred putting a Question about General Gordon till the last moment, as the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs is not in his place, and I will now put it to the most dignified Member of the Government present, the Lord President of the Council. Is the noble Lord able to toll me whether there is any truth in the news which has been spread about London that General Gordon is taken?
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL): I have only this moment heard of the report, but not from any official quarter.
  Earl GRANVILLE having at this moment taken his place—
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYagain rose and said: I wish to ask the noble Earl, whether there is any foundation for the report which is prevalent in London that General Gordon is taken?
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I was informed about an hour ago that the second edition of The Daily News contained a telegram to the effect stated by the noble Marquess. We have had no information of that kind. Not being able to get the second edition, I sent to The Daily News office to know the particulars, and I have just received a note from the editor, in which he says that they had received a telegram to that effect, but they did not publish, it be-

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  cause they did not attach any weight to it.

CRIMINAL LAW AMENDMENT—LEGISLATION.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE BISHOP OF ROCHESTER,in rising to ask, What wore the intentions of Her Majesty's Government with respect to the "Criminal Law Amendment Bill, for the better protection of Women and Children," said, the subject was one of considerable importance, and was viewed with very great anxiety by all classes of Her Majesty's subjects. It would be in the recollection of their Lordships that a Bill dealing with the question was introduced in that House last Session. That Bill was founded upon the Report of a Special Committee, and many of their Lordships took a very great interest in it. He was sorry to say, however, that although the measure passed through all its stages in their Lordships' House it fell through owing to the pressure of Business in "another place." No doubt, the miscreants who got their living by plying this detestable trade were only too glad to be left alone. But he trusted that their Lordships would come to the conclusion that the matter should not be allowed to rest where it was at the present moment. He knew the deepest interest was taken in the Bill by the noble Lord who had charge of it last Session, and he hoped the Government would now be in a position to inform the House that they intended to bring in a judicious measure upon the subject without delay.
  THE EARL OF DALHOUSIE,in reply, said, he was afraid he could not give an answer to the Question which the right rev. Prelate would be likely to think altogether satisfactory. The subject was discussed last year, and it was found to be one of considerable difficulty. All he could say was that in the present state of Public Business it was almost impossible for the Government to decide what course they would take with the Bill; but when Public Business was more advanced they would consider how they could best deal with the matter.

FRANCHISE (IRELAND),

  MOTION FOR A RETURN.
  THE EARL OF LIMERICK,in moving for a Return showing the population in each county, city, and borough in Ire-
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  land returning Members to Parliament; together with the acreage, the valuation of rateable property, the number of registered voters, the number of lands, tenements, or hereditaments, and the number of inhabited houses in each, at their different ratings, said, that a Return very like this was moved for in 1880. It only, however, referred to cities and boroughs, whilst the Return he now ventured to move for extended to counties. It was a matter of great interest to many Irishmen at the present time to know certain particulars about the population, valuation, and other details connected with the counties, cities, and boroughs of Ireland. The Return which he moved for had been drawn up in consultation with various Gentlemen, some of them belonging to the House of Commons, and they had expressed the opinion that it would be a most desirable Return for the Government to grant and for them to have. Their Lordships would see the object of it. They had been told that there was some chance, this year, of legislation dealing with the extension of the occupation franchise to Ireland, and it was well that they should know what class of persons would be enfranchised by any measure the Government might introduce, what was the nature of the inhabited houses in the various counties, cities, and boroughs in Ireland, and whether a large number of those houses were not occupied by persons very little above the pauper class. He could not think that the Return would take any very great time in preparing, and if the Government intended to introduce a Franchise Bill, the information was no doubt in their possession. They must, he thought, have considered the details which he asked for if they had come to the conclusion to bring in such a measure. He might mention that the previous Return, referring only to boroughs, was so easily obtained that although the Order of their Lordships' House was obtained on the 24th June, 1880, the Return was ordered to be printed on the 5th July, 1880, so that it practically took less than a fortnight to secure the Return.
  Moved, "That there he laid before this House, Return, showing—

  1. The population in each county, city, and borough in Ireland returning members to Parliament.

  2. The acreage of each of the same.

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  3. The valuation of rateable property in each of the same.

  4. The number of registered voters in each of the same.

  5. The number of lands, tenements, or hereditaments in each county as above, rated at

  (1.) £12 and over;

  (2.) Over £4 and less than £12;

  (3.) £4 and under.

  6. The number of lands, tenements, or hereditaments in each city and borough, as above, rated at

  (1.) Over£4;

  (2.) £4 and under.

  7. The number of inhabited houses in each county, city, and borough as above, rated at

  (1.) £12 and over;

  (2.) Over £4 and less than £12;

  (3.) Over £1 and not exceeding £4;

  (4.) £1 and under."—(The Earl of Limerick.)

  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL),in reply, said, he was afraid there would be very great difficulty in preparing the Return. With respect to the first four heads of the Return, there would be, of course, no difficulty in obtaining the information which would come under them, which information would be easily accessible without preparing such a document. The difficulty lay in the heads 5, 6, and 7, which required an elaborate classification of all lands, tenements, and hereditaments throughout Ireland, and also of the inhabited houses in the cities and boroughs there. He had received a full statement from the Commissioner of Valuation in Dublin, in which that gentleman stated that it was absolutely out of his power at this time of the year to undertake that classification. The Commissioner stated that the whole of his staff were engaged upon the work of the annual revision of the valuation of Ireland, work which must be completed under Statute by a certain day, and that it would be absolutely impossible for him to withdraw them from that work. The Commissioner added that it would make such an important addition to his work, that it would take away the greater portion of his staff for two months from the revision of the valuation. Under those circumstances, he (Lord Carlingford) did not see how it would be possible for the Government to require the Commissioner of Valuation at the present time to perform the work of preparing the Return which the noble Earl desired to obtain.
  THE EARL OF LIMERICKsaid, the really valuable part of the information
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  would be under heads 5, 6, and 7. As to the details being elaborate, those of the Return of 1880 were as elaborate, and yet he would remind the noble Lord that no difficulty was experienced in supplying them in about 10 days. He thought that before any measure was proposed by the Government for extending the franchise in Ireland, they ought to know what class of persons would be introduced upon the registers. Unless his Motion were agreed to, he should divide the House upon it.
  On Question? Their Lordships divided:—Contents 38; Not-Contents 34: Majority 4.

  CONTENTS.

  Northumberland, D.

  Brabourne, L.

  Chelmsford, L.

  Salisbury, M.

  Clanwilliam, L. (E. Clanwilliam.)

  Cadogan, E.

  Clinton, L.

  Doncaster, E. (D. Buccleuch and Queensberry.)

  Colville of Culross, L.

  Douglas, L. (E. Home.)

  Egerton, L.

  Feversham, E.

  Ellenborough, L.

  Fortescue, E.

  Foxford, L. (E. Limerick.) [Teller.]

  Hardwicke, E.

  Jersey, E.

  Gerard, L.

  Leven and Melville, E.

  Hay, L. (E. Kinnoul.)

  Lucan, E.

  Ker, L. (M. Lothian.)

  Mount Edgcumbe, E.

  Lamington, L.

  Redesdale, E.

  Penrhyn, L.

  Romney, E.

  Raglan, L.

  Stanhope, E. [Teller.]

  Shute, L. (V. Barrington.)

  Stradbroke, E.

  Wharncliffe, E.

  Silchester, L. (E. Longford.)

  Cranbrook, V.

  Stratheden and Campbell, L.

  Ashford, L. (V. Bury.)

  Wemyss, L. (E. Wemyss.)

  Bagot, L.

  NOT-CONTENTS.

  Selborne, E. (L. Chancellor.)

  Carlingford, L.

  Carrington, L.

  Clifford of Chudleigh, L.

  Bedford, D.

  Grafton, D.

  Dorchester, L.

  FitzGerald, L.

  Camperdown, E.

  Gwydir, L.

  Derby, E.

  Hothfield, L.

  Granville, E.

  Lyttelton, L.

  Kimberley, E.

  Ramsay, L. (E. Dalhousie,)

  Morley, E. [Teller.]

  Northbrook, E.

  Romilly, L.

  Sydney, E.

  Sandhurst, L.

  Saye and Sele, L.

  Sherbrooke, V.

  Strafford, L. (V. Enfield.)

  Exeter, L. Bp.

  Sudeley, L.

  Auckland, L.

  Thurlow, L.

  Belper, E.

  Tweeddale, E. (M. Tweeddale.)

  Blachford, L.

  Boyle, L. (E. Cork and Orrery.) [Teller.]

  Waveney, L.

  Wrottesley, L.

  Resolved in the affirmative.

THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND)—MR. PARNELL.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  EARL FORTESCUEsaid, he rose to ask Her Majesty's Government, Whether Mr. Parnell, M.P. for Cork, has not ceased to be on the Commission of the Peace; and, if so, when he ceased to be so, and whether it was by his own resignation or by removal from the Magistracy? The noble Earl said that two years ago he put a corresponding Question to the Government. After the passing of the Coercion Act, during which Members of the Government so strongly denounced the proceedings of the Land League, of which Mr. Parnell was President, he was told, to his surprise, that Mr. Parnell was still a Justice of the Peace. He then lost no time in putting a Question to the Government on the subject, and the Lord President answered him with much complacency that Mr. Parnell had been 10 years a magistrate for the County of Wicklow and was so still. He thought nothing more of the matter until the recent remarkable removal of Lord Rossmore from the Commission of the Peace. Then, looking to the list of magistrates in Thom's well known Directory, he found that Mr. Parnell's name had disappeared therefrom. He therefore begged to ask how this removal had occurred?
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)said, that he had obtained the necessary information from the Lord Chancellor's Office in Dublin. It appeared that Mr. Parnell was removed from the magistracy. The warrant for the writ superseding him as Justice of the Peace for the County of Wicklow was signed by the Lord Chancellor on the 14th of October, 1881; the writ of supersedeas had been forwarded to the Clerk of the Peace in Dublin on the 15th of October, and it was handed to Mr. Parnell while under arrest in Kilmainham on the 18th of October.
  House adjourned at Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.