Lords Sitting of 1 December 1884

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Tramways and Public Companies (Ireland) Act Amendment* (8).
Select Committee—Infants,* nominated.
Committee—Representation of the People (5), discharged.
Royal Assent—Income Tax [47 & 48 Vict. c. 1.]

COMMISSIONERS OF NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND)—CONVENT NATIONAL SCHOOLS—GRANTS IN AID.
LORD FITZGERALDsaid, he had to ask the Lord President a Question of some importance, of which he had given him private Notice—namely, Whether any action had been taken in reference to the recommendation of the Commissioners of National Education, made in 1879 and in subsequent years, that the remuneration of the teachers of the Irish Convent National Schools should be augmented?
LORD CARLINGFOED (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL): The question of payments to the Convent Schools is now under the consideration of the Government. But certain Rules which restricted the grants to Convent Schools have lately been considered by the National Board of Education, who, with the full approval of the Government, have made the following changes in their Code:—(1). Rescinded a Rule which prohibited grants to more than one school in connection with the same convent; (2), rescinded a Rule which excluded a nun from being a teacher in an industrial department of a National School; (3), rescinded a Rule which ex-

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cluded monks and nuns not only from building grants, but also from the teacherships of 2,200 Vested Schools.

REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL.—(No. 5.)
(The Earl of Kimberley.)
REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL.—(No. 5.)

  COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that he thought it would be better, perhaps, to adhere exactly to the arrangement originally made, that the Committee stage should be taken on Thursday, when the Redistribution Bill was read a second time in the other House. There was also another reason. They understood, when they separated, that there would be no contentious matter introduced that evening. He believed a noble Friend behind him (Lord Denman) was desirous to raise the question of Woman's Suffrage. He was not prepared to support his noble Friend; but, as that was contentious matter, he thought it would be better to adjourn the Committee stage till Thursday.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he thought that they might, perhaps, have disposed of the question of Woman's Suffrage that night; but as it was contentious it could be dealt with when they were in Committee on Thursday. He would not resist the appeal of the noble Marquess to postpone the Committee till that day; and if no Amendments were then made they might fix the third reading for Friday next.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBUEYsaid, there would be no objection to that course if the Redistribution Bill were read a second time in the other House on Thursday. If there were any resistance to passing that Bill in the other House their Lordships might have to consider what course they would pursue.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)said, he could not see why there was any necessity for such extreme haste. They ought to know what was going to be done in the other House upon the question of redistribution before they allowed this Bill to pass from their hands. The question was one of very serious importance, for supposing that there was a breakdown, and their Lordships had passed
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  this Bill and sent it back to the House of Commons, amended or unamended, the effect might be that this Bill would be in operation and applied to the existing constituencies, instead of what both sides had agreed to—namely, that a Redistribution of Seats Bill should come into operation at the same time as the franchise. There was no doubt of the readiness of the House to pass this Bill; but it was reasonable that they should know what course the other House would take as to the Redistribution Bill before giving up all control whatever over it. There was no need for being in haste. There was plenty of time.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he did not wish to be supposed to agree with the noble Earl. He did not apprehend the danger which the noble Earl feared—that the Franchise Bill would come into operation without a Redistribution Bill. He did not object to the postponement of the present stage of the Bill until Thursday.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he wished to say a word with respect to the statement of the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees (the Earl of Redesdale), who seemed to apprehend that the Franchise Bill would come into operation without the Redistribution Bill, and apply to the existing constituencies. That seemed to him (the Marquess of Salisbury) to be absolutely impossible. The Government had given a pledge to resign if the Redistribution Bill did not pass. Of course, their resignation would be followed by consequences in the other House which they all understood.
  LORD BRAMWELLsaid, that he had carefully read the clauses of the Bill, and he found that there were no less than 13 matters which, as it seemed to him, ought to be altered, or, at least, made plainer than they were at present. It might be said that the right thing to do would be to give Notice of Amendments; but he was in this difficulty—that if he gave Notice of a particular Amendment in order to clear up an ambiguity in the Bill, he might be giving Notice of something contrary to the intention of the Government, which he had no desire to do; still, there were points of difficulty which should be cleared up. For instance, there was the question of what was called the service franchise. He (Lord Bramwell) could not tell whe-

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  ther that was meant to include any number of men, or whether it should apply to one only. Again, the household and lodger franchises were to be given if the qualifying premises were situated in a county. Whoever drew that clause had forgot that all boroughs were situate in counties; so that, as the Bill stood, it might be contended that a lodger or householder in a borough would be entitled to vote for the county, which surely could not be intended. He had written out his difficulties, and sent a copy of them to the noble and learned Earl (the Lord Chancellor), the noble and learned Earl (Earl Cairns), and the noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Salisbury). If he could get any information from their Lordships as to how those doubts should be removed he should be glad.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he had received the Paper referred to by his noble and learned Friend with some regret, because nothing was less desirable than that verbal criticism should be applied to the clauses of the Bill without adequate necessity. So far as the points raised by his noble and learned Friend could be regarded as raising any questions of substance, he could assure him that they had been fully considered, and a satisfactory explanation of them could be given. He did not apprehend that the slightest difficulty would arise in interpreting the Bill as it stood.
  LORD BRAMWELLsaid, that that was precisely what he did apprehend. An interpretation might be put on the Bill in that House; but the Bill might come before others who were as incapable of interpreting it as he was. He did not want to indulge in verbal criticism; but the clauses should be made clear to all, and not be discreditable to the House which passed them.
  EARL GRANVLLLEremarked, that nothing could be fairer than that the noble and learned Lord should raise the objections which occurred to his very acute mind as being of importance; but the points in question could be considered in Committee. The noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) had said that the Government had bound themselves to resign if the Redistribution Bill failed to pass. They had bound themselves to make the Redistribution Bill a vital question but there was another alternative to resigning.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBUEYsaid, that as the noble and learned Lord (Lord Bramwell) had alluded to him, he might state that he had been assured that his Amendments were being carefully considered by the Government. He thought it would be better, however, to defer any discussion of them till Thursday.
  Order discharged; and House to be put into Committee on Thursday next.

  AUSTRALIA—CONFEDERATION OF THE COLONIES.—QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce during the present Session a Bill to enable the Australasian Colonies to carry out the scheme of federation lately agreed to by the Intercolonial Conference in Australia?
  THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, I am glad that the Question which has been put to me by my noble Friend gives me an opportunity, which I very much desire to have, of explaining how this matter really stands. I have seen suggestions in various quarters that the Government have not made up their minds about this Australian Bill; that they are hesitating whether to proceed with it; and that that is the cause of the delay in bringing it in. For that statement there is no shadow of foundation. We are pledged to bring in the Bill, and we have not the least wish to withdraw from our pledge; and I am sanguine enough to believe that it will meet with very little opposition either here or "elsewhere." It is, in fact, the carrying into effect of the policy which, on the part of the Colonial Office, I suggested last year; and I am, therefore, the last person likely to be indifferent to its success. The reasons which have prevented me from bringing it in during this Autumn Session have been various. There was the inevitable uncertainty until within the last few days as to the duration of our Sittings, and the Business that would come before us; and on examining the draft of the Bill we have found various points of detail on which Amendments seem desirable; and before introducing these Amendments we have thought it well to consult the Governments of the various Colonies. We shall have their answer early in the

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  spring, and practically no time will be lost. It will be an additional advantage if the Legislatures of New South Wales and New Zealand should so far reconsider their present view as to be willing to join; but as the Bill does not create any compulsory union, but only empowers Colonies to act together for certain purposes, if they choose to unite, unanimity among the Colonies is not necessary.
  House adjourned at Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.