Lords Sitting of 25 April 1884

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading —Marriages Legalisation (Wood Green Congregational Church) * (66); Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (London)* (68); Local Government Board (Ireland) Provisional Order (Dundalk Waterworks)* (69); Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders* (70).
EGYPT (EVENTS IN THE SOUDAN)— RELIEF OF BERBER AND KHARTOUM.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: My Lords, I rise for the purpose of putting a Question to the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, of which I have given him private Notice. It is, Whether Her Majesty's Government have arrived at any resolution as to the steps that should be taken for the relief of Berber, and for securing the safety of General Gordon at Khartoum? The Question is almost identically the same as that which I put yesterday, and I wish to disclaim either any design of discourtesy to the noble Earl (Earl Granville) or desire to disregard the Rules of the House by putting it then without Notice. It struck me at the time that this was a matter of very general interest; and I thought, possibly, some information
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  could be given which would have been satisfactory to this House. I am not sure that I was not to some extent justified in this course, because on referring this morning to the usual channels of information that action has been foreshadowed "elsewhere," which, if confirmed, will lend increased value to any communication that may be made by the noble Earl. I take it that we have it now as a matter of fact that Her Majesty's Government recognize that there is extreme danger at Berber; and if in the interest of the public service it is not considered desirable to enter into details, I will not, under the circumstances, unduly press the noble Earl; but what I and others feel is this—that, if it were possible, we should like to know what the actual danger is at Berber at this moment; whether it is a danger of so grave a nature that it requires to be dealt with immediately, or whether it is one which will allow the Government time to consider what course they will take; and I should like, in the latter event, to know how soon the noble Earl thinks he will be able to make some announcement with regard to the intentions of the Government on the subject? Then with regard to Khartoum. Here I come to what I consider to be the very important admission which the Government have made to the country. There are two statements in the papers this morning; one is that, in the opinion of the Government, General Gordon is in perfect safety at Khartoum, and the other is that Mr. Power is in very considerable peril in the same place and at the same time. These two statements cannot be reconciled. We are also told that Her Majesty's Government thoroughly recognize the obligations they are under for General Gordon's safety, and that, recognizing it, it is their duty to put themselves in a position to discharge it should the occasion arise. To anybody with a certain amount of common sense who reads these words, they must appear to foreshadow some action; and I am. at a loss to know whether, when Her Majesty's Government have undertaken the responsibility which I assume they have undertaken from these words, how that responsibility will be increased by giving the public information as to what they intend to do; and I also believe a statement of what they intend

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  to do will have a very great effect in. bettering the position of General Gordon, and also the position of the garrison at Khartoum. I would also like to ask the noble Earl another Question. I see in The Morning Post to-day a telegram which states that at an extraordinary Cabinet Council held yesterday at Cairo, a resolution was adopted declaring that the immediate despatch of an expedition to Upper Egypt was imperatively necessary, and that Nubar Pasha had been instructed to communicate that resolution to Her Majesty's Government. I wish to know whether anything of the sort has been done; and whether the noble Earl is able to inform us what steps Her Majesty's Government intend to take with regard to that expedition?
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Earl for having given me Notice this morning of his intention to put this Question. I am quite sure that, being a good Conservative, he will be satisfied in conducting the Business of the House in a regular way. I can quite understand the great anxiety and curiosity that the noble Earl feels on this subject, and which is not peculiar to himself, but is common to all your Lordships. The noble Earl speaks of the responsibility which we have undertaken; but we are also under responsibility in regard to the answers which we give to Questions put to us. I do not think I have much to add to the answer which I gave the other day to almost the same Question put by the noble Earl (the Earl of Carnarvon) who sits on the front Benches opposite. With regard to Berber, our information is that it is in immediate danger; but I cannot go beyond what the Prime Minister said not many hours ago, that we have received communications from Berber, and have replied to them. As far as Khartoum is concerned, I am really not aware that "elsewhere" anything more was said than I said on Tuesday, when I stated, in the strongest manner possible, the obligations under which Her Majesty's Government felt themselves to be, in common with the country, in regard to the safety of General Gordon. That acknowledgment of obligations involves the responsibility of carrying out the duties imposed by those obligations; but I am not prepared to give the noble Earl any further infor-
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  mation on the point which has been raised by the noble Earl, though he has said something new. The noble Earl has said that he learnt something new yesterday—namely, that though I said I did not consider Khartoum or General Gordon in military danger, Members of the Government in the other House were of a very different opinion in consequence of the intimation we had given to Mr. Power. But this intimation was given very nearly a month before General Gordon had left this country. His position is not different now from what it was then. Is it to be held, because we said we believed there is no military danger to General Gordon at this moment, that we are insensible as to his position, and feel no interest or sympathy with him? It has been a consolation to me this afternoon to have had a conversation with that very distinguished man, Sir Henry Gordon, who repeated to me what he had said before—that he believes his brother is in no military danger at Khartoum, whatever cause of danger might exist elsewhere. He read to me a letter from his brother, dated the 12th or 15th of March, in which General Gordon said he should be more powerful two months hence, when the waters of the Nile began to rise, than he was two months ago. I am sorry I cannot give the noble Earl more information; but the noble Earl will probably appreciate the feeling that there are responsibilities under which Her Majesty's Government believe that they ought not to say at any moment exactly what they will or what they will not do.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, it is not my intention to press the noble Earl, after his last declaration, on any matter connected with the intentions of Her Majesty's Government; but I wish to make one observation with respect to the mode in which he received the Question of my noble Friend last night. The noble Earl stated that it was the uniform practice of this House that Notice, public or private, should be given of Questions which it was intended to put in this House. I will not attempt to traverse his opinion in that respect, his experience in this House having been so much larger than my own; but I desire to call attention to the difference between the conduct of the Government in the other House and that in this

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  House. In the other House Questions are constantly put to Ministers on the spur of the moment, and they are not disposed of in the cavalier manner which has been adopted by the noble Earl in this House. Some answer is almost always given. It may, of course, be in. the public interest that answers should not be given to Questions such as that of the noble Earl, especially without Notice; but I think I am right in calling attention to the curt and—if I may use the word in this House—the snubbing rejoinder that no information can be given unless Notice is given beforehand, is not the manner in which the Government receive Questions in the other House put at a time of crisis like this, with respect to which the interest of all Her Majesty's subjects is urgent and extreme. I think the noble Earl presses the tradition and practice of your Lordships' House too far, and that he might have given information in this House which is not refused in the other. I can only explain the noble Earl's conduct in one way—he has been embarrassed by the somewhat effusive language of the Prime Minister in the other House, and thinks it necessary to hear what the right hon. Gentleman has said before giving an answer himself. That is a position which I can easily understand; but I think he exposes his apprehensions in too nude a manner.
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, although it is irregular, I must ask to be allowed to say a few words in reply to what has been said by the noble Marquess. I have been a great many years a Member of this House, and have long held official and semi-official positions; but this is the first time I have been accused of want of respect to your Lordships' House. Without regard to the differing practices in the two Houses, one thing is quite clear, and that is, that yesterday, in regard to the chief Questions put in the other House of Parliament, Notice, either public or private, had been given; and I cannot conceive that anyone should have thought it necessary to make an innovation here. I put it to the noble Marquess himself, who has had so much experience, whether there is any possible advantage, either to this House, to the Government, or to the public, that noble Lords, having Questions to put to Ministers in regard to which they must have made
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  up their minds in the course of the day, should jump up at the very last moment, and I am sure without the slightest intention of doing so, taking by surprise the Minister to whom the Question is addressed. I believe the tradition of this House is an excellent one, and one which should be acted upon; and, as far as I am concerned, I shall try to adhere to it, whether in Government or in Opposition. If the noble Marquess likes to break this rule, of course, he can do so; but I do not mean to be deterred by any taunts of his from reserving to myself the right to have some Notice given of very important International Questions before they are put to me.

  ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL
  ORDER CONFIRMATION (LONDON) BILL [H. L.] (NO. 68.) A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Education Department under the Elementary Education Act, 1870, to enable the School Board for London to put in force the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845, and the Acts amending the same: And
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER (DUNDALK WATERWORKS) BILL [H. L.] (NO. 69.) A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order of the Local Government Board for Ireland relating to Waterworks in the town of Dundalk:
  Were presented by The LORD MONSON; read 1a

  PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the General Pier and Harbour Act, 1861, relating to Aldborough, Baltimore and Skibbereen, Carlingford Lough, Chatham, Cromer, Cullen, Dawlish, Eyemouth, Fraserburgh, Hove, and Newlyn—Was presented by The Lord SUDELEY; read 1a. (No. 70.)
  House adjourned at a quarter before Five o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Eleven o'clock.