Lords Sitting of 24 April 1884

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (The Labourers Act) (Enniscorthy, &c.) * (64.)
Third Reading—Army (Annual) (59); Fresh-water Fisheries Act Amendment* (43–65), and passed.

ARMY (ANNUAL) BILL.—(No. 59.)
(The Earl of Morley.)
ARMY (ANNUAL) BILL.—(No. 59.)

  THIRD READING.
  Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 3a." —(The Earl of Morley.)
  THE EARL OF LONGFORDwished to know from the noble Earl whether there was any prospect of progress being made with the erection of a new War Office for which plans were exhibited two years ago? There could be no doubt that the Army administration suffered materially from the great inconvenience arising from the fact that the business of the Department was conducted in several buildings not near to each other.
  THE EARL OF MORLEYsaid, he did not see what relation there would be between his Motion and the question of the noble and gallant Earl. He however, quite admitted the importance of it; but it was one which ought to be addressed to the Commissioner of Public Works rather than to himself. He could

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  not say more than that measures had been taken for carrying into effect the proposals which had been made with regard to the erection of new offices, and he believed that a large number of designs for those offices had been sent in; but no designs had as yet been selected. He sympathized with the desire of the noble Earl that the administration of the Army should be under one roof.
  Motion agreed to;Bill read 3a accordingly, and passed.

AFRICA (WEST COAST)—THE INTERNATIONAL AFRICAN ASSOCIATION.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF FIFE,in asking whether Her Majesty's Government had any intention of recognizing the International African Association, and whether they could give any information as to the status of this organization in S. W. Africa and its relation to the lives and trade of British subjects, disclaimed any intention of dealing with the question of the Congo Treaty, as he could not see what better arrangement could have been made unless we were prepared for wholesale annexation on the South-West Coast of Africa. He maintained that the Lower Congo, although possessing at present what little trade there was now in those regions, led practically nowhere, and that the recent labours of Mr. Stanley and Mr. Johnston abundantly proved that the real route in the future by which to reach Central Africa was the Kwilu River. The successful exploration of the Kwilu, the establishment of seven stations on the river, and the mapping out of the practical route to Stanley Pool, was accomplished last year in the name of the International African Association, a society formed eight years ago by the King of the Belgians, and which had now virtually assumed possession of a vast territory stretching from the shores of the Atlantic to the confines of the Soudan. It was the anomalous position and extraordinary constitution of that society that he was anxious to call attention to, and to inquire what official cognizance Her Majesty's Government had taken or were about to take of it. They had lately heard that the United States had decided to recognize it as a Government. Did the British Government contemplate
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  any similar course? The founders of this peculiar organization disclaimed all national rivalries, and professed to carry on a purely philanthropic and noncommercial undertaking; but he found an intrepid American traveller extending his sway over 4,250 miles of waterway and 49,000,000 of population, supported by 13 steamers, 1,800 Natives, and some hundreds of Europeans. Was it possible that one man, aided by a few clever and adventurous spirits taken from all countries of Europe, could maintain order without some organized force, and keep up a semblance of justice over such limitless areas? On the coast it was ominously asserted that the White men considered there was no law. Could this state of things continue when the interior should have been opened to the markets of the world? What was, or what was to be, the status of that gigantic association flying its own flag over half a continent, and what powers for the defence of lives and property was it to have over British subjects whose number was likely to increase in those newly-discovered lands? It had been suggested by M. Emile de Laveleye that the Valley of the Congo should be neutralized, and an international control had also been spoken of to be established by the European Powers. It seemed to him that it was high time to secure for Great Britain some influence and share in the management of an association which, if recognized and developed, might be made to serve the ends of civilization. It would seem that the French had recently come into possession of Loango, and Black Point, south of the mouth of the Kwilu River, and considerably south of their old Possessions in the Gaboon— indeed, separated from them by the Kwilu Province, which Mr. Stanley was very anxious not to see in the hands of the French or Portuguese. In view, therefore, of the newly-acquired French Possessions, the altered Portuguese frontier, and the establishment of the International African Association as a great power covering 200 miles of the coast, it could not be denied that the position and status of that association was a matter of great importance, and on eon which it was not unreasonable to ask for some information from Her Majesty's Government.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, the noble Earl had referred to a very large, im-

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  portant, and difficult matter, in regard to which he was not prepared to give a definite answer on the present occasion. The noble Earl had very accurately described the character of the International African Association. He understood that that Association was promoted by the King of the Belgians, not as a Sovereign, but as an individual who had carried out the scheme on philanthropic grounds with immense munificence. The Association was not altogether separated, he thought, from commercial objects, and under the energetic conduct of its leader (Mr. Stanley) very large and important results had been achieved. With regard to the recognition of the Society by Her Majesty's Government, he might say that the noble Earl had correctly referred to the recognition of it by the Government of the United States. He had himself to-day received a telegram showing that the Government of the United States had recognized the flag of the Association as that of a friendly Government. The whole question of the constitution of the Society was, of course, very important; but Her Majesty's Government had not under consideration at present the particular Question which the noble Earl had put, and they would have to go much further into detail as to the matter and the view which was held by the Government of the United States before giving any definite answer to the Question.
  THE EARL OF FIFEsaid, he should again call attention to the question on an early day.

  EGYPT (EVENTS IN THE SOUDAN)—RELIEF OF BERBER AND GENERAL GORDON.—QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsaid, that, before the House rose, he would like to ask the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether, in view of the information which had been received in this country, it was the intention of the Government to take any steps for the relief of Berber or of General Gordon?
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he must adhere to the line which he had always followed, and which was also the tradition of their Lordships' House, in declining to answer a Question of which Notice had not been given in the ordi-
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  nary way, and of which the noble Earl had not taken the trouble to give him Notice in writing of his intention to put it.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDERS (THE LABOURERS ACT) (ENNISCORTHT, &c.) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to confirm Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board for Ireland under the Labourers (Ireland) Act, 1883, relating to the Unions of Enniscorthy, Clonakilty, Gorey, Killadysert, and Shillelagh—Was presented by The Lord MONSON; read 1a. (No. 64.)
  House adjourned at Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.