HL Deb 15 March 1883 vol 277 cc519-27

Order of the Day for the Second Beading read.

LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRIVY SEAL),

in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that their Lordships would remember that the existing Irish Sunday Closing Act passed through that House and became law in 1878, and it would expire in the present year. The object of this Bill was to perpetuate the Act, and to remove from it the exception of the five enumerated towns. The Bill of 1878 was introduced by a private Member; but, although it was greatly favoured by the Government of the day, it experienced in "another place" a very troublesome and difficult course, having met with a very strenuous resistance from a small minority. It had been represented to the Government, and they were themselves convinced of it, that public opinion in Ireland was very strongly, indeed, in favour of the continuance of the measure, and the Government, having been requested to take it into their own hands, had thought it their duty to do so. It was therefore as a Government Bill that he asked their Lordships to give the measure a second reading. As to the success of the Act, which had been in operation a sufficient time to give it a good trial, there had been a war of statistics carried on between the friends and the opponents of the Act; the Irish Temperance Association on the one hand, and the Dublin Licensed Victuallers' Society, representing the trade, on the other. With these statistics he should not attempt to trouble the House at any length. They were not very clear in their effect, and they had, at all events, been pushed beyond the reason of the case by both the friends and the opponents of the Bill. For instance, the friends of the Bill had pointed out that, within the last few years, there had been a decrease in the consumption of spirituous liquors in Ireland to the amount of £2,000,000, and that fact was claimed, more or less, as a result of the Act. He did not himself doubt that the Act had contributed in some measure to that result, neither did he doubt that, on the whole, the effect of the statistics was decidedly in favour of the operation of the Act. But it was equally certain that there had been other causes which had contributed to the result; a growing general feeling in favour of temperance, and also the distress of the country which had led to a smaller consumption of spirituous liquors. But, then, the opponents of the Bill had pointed out that, for two or three years, a similiar diminution of consumption had taken place on this side of the Channel, especially in Scotland. In Scotland, however, the consumption had, he believed, risen again to its original rate; whereas, in Ireland, nothing of the kind had occurred, and the diminution held its ground. The opponents of the Bill then said that the apparent diminution must be accounted for by an increase in the production and consumption of illicit spirits. But the Government had satisfied themselves that that was an entire mistake, and that the Act had not led to any increase of illicit distillation, as was predicted when it was about to pass. He would not go any further into the statistics of general intemperance in Ireland, although they had been much made use of on this subject on both sides; but he would like to tell the House the figures as to Sunday intemperance, which, of course, had more immediate bearing on the Bill. So far as this came within the province of the police by arrests for Sunday drunkenness, these figures appeared to him to be very decidedly in favour of the operation of the Act. It had been ascertained roughly that during the three and a-half years preceding the enactment of this law the number of Sunday arrests in all Ireland, except the five exempted towns, amounted in round numbers to 16,000, and that in the three and a-half years since the Act came into operation, the number had been only 6,000, or a diminution of 60 per cent. Taking the five exempted towns, which, however, were subjected to the very important change of losing the last two hours they formerly had for keeping open in the evening, the Sunday arrests had diminished from 10,000 to 6,500, or 33 per cent. So much for the statistics of the case. Now, as regarded the general success of the measure, and still more as to its increasing and now prevailing and preponderant popularity in Ireland, he thought there could be no doubt whatever. The Government had not failed to use all the means in their power to ascertain the effects of the Act all over the country and the public feeling on the subject, and they had satisfied themselves that upon every point upon which prophecies of evil had been made when the Act was passing those prophecies had not been fulfilled, and that in the general results, with very trifling exceptions, the Act had been highly favourable to the cause of sobriety and good order. They had satisfied themselves that the Act had not had the effect of increasing the number of so-called "shebeen" houses, which was confidently predicted; that the amount of unlawful sales had gone on to a very limited extent; and that the most confident prediction of all— namely, that illicit distillation would increase—had not been fulfilled. On the whole, the Irish Government were satisfied that, all over the country, the preponderant public feeling was in favour of the continuance of the Act, and that that was the feeling of the working classes themselves. Then came the only practical question which he thought would be at issue in the two Houses of Parliament—whether the Act should be extended to the five exempted towns? There was every reason to believe—and that formed the strongest possible argument for the extension of the Act—that, if it had originally included the exempted towns, there would have been the same amount of feeling in its favour in those towns as in the rest of Ireland; and that, in those towns, the great weight of public opinion was on the side of the extension of the Act. It was asserted at the time by its strongest opponents in the other House that there was no reason for exempting those towns, and that every reason given for the Bill applied at least as strongly, if not more strongly, to those towns than it did to the rural districts and the smaller towns of the country. But the exemption was admitted for the sake of peace, and as a matter of precaution and prudence, and to secure the passing of the Bill. Great pains had been taken to ascertain what was the general opinion entertained by the inhabitants of the towns which would be affected by the measure—by a house to house canvass, for instance, and by a circular addressed to all the clergy and the various leading classes of the respective cities and towns—and making every possible allowance for any amount of uncertainty or misconception there might be in such a mode of ascertaining public opinion, the enormous preponderance of the opinions given against the exemption left no doubt at all that the exempted towns were in favour of being brought within the operation of the Act. He submitted that the Act, after a considerable trial, had proved itself to be a success, and that it was viewed with favour by the great majority of Irish. Members of all Parties, because in this case no division of Party whatever was to be found; and he trusted, therefore, that their Lordships would give the Bill a second reading, and that it might become law during the present Session.

Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Lord Privy Seal.)

THE EARL OF MILLTOWN

said, he was satisfied that the Act had proved beneficial to Ireland; and he hoped that, in renewing it, steps would be taken further in the direction either of repealing or modifying the bonâ fide Traveller Clause, which, at present, rendered the Act a mockery, delusion, and a snare, and had proved a stumbling-block alike to the public, the police, and the magistrates. That clause had been differently interpreted in different localities. The Act provided that no one was to be deemed a bonâ fide traveller who had not lodged more than three miles by the shortest road from the house where he obtained his refreshment; and the consequence was, that persons who resided in villages could proceed to other villages beyond the three-mile range, and could enjoy themselves to their heart's content in public-houses during the whole of the Sunday, because the clause had been generally interpreted to mean that anyone who did so reside was thereby constituted a bonâ fide traveller. He did not think there was any advantage in retaining the clause, or that it was the intention of the Legislature that such persons should be regarded as bonâ fide travellers; and, accordingly, when the Bill reached its Committee stage, should it be thought necessary to retain it, he should move Amendments in it, with a view of making certain modifications as regarded it.

THE EARL OF BELMORE

said, he was not a new convert to the policy of the Act, having been all along a warm friend of it, and was glad the Government had taken the question of its amendment and perpetuation, a proceeding he most heartily supported. He quite agreed with the noble Lord the Lord Privy Seal, that the sort of statistics put forward for and against the measure were not very trustworthy; but perhaps he might be allowed to refer to the opinion of a gentleman who was well qualified to speak on this subject. He referred to Mr. J. N. Richardson, who was a very large employer of labour, and had erected, in connection with his linen mills, a large village called Bessbrook, near Newry, in which there was not a single public-house, and who had thought it his duty quite recently to address a letter to the Prime Minister, which he had printed and circulated to Members of both Houses of Parliament. This was what he said— I am firmly convinced that if the Ministry had done their first work, and had braved the opposition of the spirit trade, they would have had a greater blessing on their labours for Ireland as well as England. It is a well-known fact that not a meeting for rapine and murder takes place in Ireland at which whisky does not play a prominent part, and that our poor countrymen would be incapable of committing the outrages which have taken place without the stimulus of whisky. It is well known, too, that the amount drunk in whisky and beer at least equalled the rental paid during the last throe years, and we hare proof that where least rent was paid, most whisky was sold. God only knows how many murders were hatched in public-houses, or how many publicans licensed by the Government have taken part in the disturbances. And then in another letter, which Mr. Richardson had addressed to a well-known Member of the other House who took great interest in this matter, the writer said— Did it never strike you, in connection with the temperance cause, that Parliament, having for the public benefit considered itself justified in depriving Irish landlords of not less than one-fourth of their income, ought, as a special duty, to consider those who have suffered by its action in these cases? For the serious taxation necessary to support the lunatics, paupers, and criminals manufactured by the drink traffic falls with undiminished weight upon those whose incomes have thus been lessened, and who have been thereby rendered less capable of sustaining it. Why should the brewers, distillers, and publicans be more tenderly dealt with than these Irish landlords, especially as the former are the direct means of this expenditure? Now, he (the Earl of Belmore) knew from his own knowledge, sitting as a magistrate in petty sessions, that that was undoubtedly quite true. He often presided in a town, where the sessions were held once a week, and after the weekly fair day an appalling number of cases of drunkenness came before the bench. They were generally undefended, and did not take long. He should vote for the Bill as a step in the right direction; and he hoped that, at a future date, the licensing laws might be further considered by the Government. With regard to what the noble Earl behind him (the Earl of Milltown) had said as to the bonâ fide Traveller Clause, he believed he was right in describing its effect, and that the magistrates were right in interpreting it as they usually did. This question, however, affected Sunday closing not merely in Ireland, but in England, and was a very large subject, if his noble Friend moved the Amendment he had foreshadowed, he should probably support him; but he wished to reserve himself to see what the proposal really was. He cordially supported the second reading of the Bill.

LORD O'HAGAN

said, that, in his belief, the Irish Government had had the fullest possible opportunity of knowing what was the real state of the case, both with reference to opinions and to facts. He knew that protestations had been made very earnestly, on one side and the other; and he thought that, in fulfilment of their duty to the country, the conclusion to which the Government had come when they determined to introduce the Bill was a wise conclusion, and one which would be for the benefit of Ireland. He remembered very well the opposition with which the last Bill was received when it was first brought in in the other House of Parliament. It was a most violent and a most persistent opposition. Riots, they were told, would occur if the Bill was passed. They were told that it would be a Bill fraught with the most injurious consequences to Ireland, and that if it were passed it would be productive of all manner of discontent and disturbance in the country; above all, illicit distillation would be certain to ensue. Well, those predictions had been entirely falsified. There was no discontent, no disturbance, no rioting, and no increase of illicit distillation. In point of fact, nothing had occurred since the passing of the Act that would warrant that House in departing from the principle of the measure. On the contrary, everything tended to show that its operation ought to be continued and extended to the exempted towns. The Act had undoubtedly a most beneficial effect on that portion of the country to which its operation extended, and, a fortiori, there was no reason whatever to believe that its effects on the places exempted would not be equally beneficial. They had the best possible evidence that the public opinion of Ireland was in its favour. The result of the inquiries made by the Government, and the large number of Memorials that had been presented to the Government from time to time, showed that in Ireland there was a most marvellous unity amongst men of all classes and creeds in favour of the Act, asking that it should be continued and extended to the exempted towns. The Protestant clergy, the Roman Catholic clergy to a very large extent, and the Presbyterian ministry, had declared in favour of the measure; and their opinion was sustained by the considerable diminution in the consumption of liquor during the time the Act was in operation, and also by the diminution of those peculiar crimes produced by drunkenness in the districts in which Sunday drinking prevailed. There could be no stronger evidence that the measure as it stood was successful, and every consideration that could be presented was now offered to the House to show that it would be successful if it were extended. It was impossible to contend that opinion so expressed should not command the respect of Parliament, and he hoped that the unanimity which that House exhibited when the Bill was before them on the former occasion would be repeated on this, and that it would have an effect on its fate "elsewhere." He gave his most hearty support to the Bill.

THE EARL OF LIMERICK

said, he did not rise to oppose the second reading of the Bill, but to express his regret that the House had not before it more decisive statistics, one way or the other, on a matter which affected considerably the freedom of the working classes. But, as the noble Lord the Lord Privy Seal had said, the statistics could be made to prove anything in favour of either party. They certainly appeared to have been made to prove anything on this occasion, for there were statistics on one side to show that the Act had increased drunkenness in the protected districts, while, in the unprotected towns, it had decreased; and, on the other side, there were statistics to prove the exact reverse. As it was, they must make the best of the somewhat conflicting statistics which they had before them. He could speak from a personal knowledge of the ill effects of Saturday night's drinking, and he could say that the Sunday drinking in a Militia regiment with which he was connected was larger than on any other day of the week, except Saturday. Experience showed that drinking was commenced on Saturday, and continued on Sunday; and, if possible, more drinking and disturbances took place on the Saturday night than on Sunday. In fact, if he might be allowed to say so, the Sunday drinking began on Saturday night. There was one most essential point which he desired to press upon Her Majesty's Government, and that was the horrible length to which adulteration was carried. In his opinion more drunkenness, or rather poisoning, arose from a small consumption of bad spirits than from that of a larger quantity of wholesome drink. He had known men to leave barracks, and in a quarter of an hour to be found in the streets in a state of absolute madness, arising from the bad liquor they had drunk. In the lower sort of public-houses there was no doubt that adulteration of a most injurious kind was carried on to an enormous extent, and to a degree that was positively injurious to health. He hoped that at some future day the Government would seriously take into consideration this question of adulteration.

Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.