Lords Sitting of 15 March 1883

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—National Gallery (Loan) (18); Sale of Liquors on Sunday (Ireland) (17).
Report—Payment of Wages in Public-houses Prohibition (1–21).
The Lord O'HAGAN—Chosen Speaker in the absence of the Lord Chancellor and the Lords Commissioners.
House adjourned during pleasure; and resumed by the Lord Chancellor.

NATIONAL GALLERY (LOAN) BILL.
(The Earl Granville.)
NATIONAL GALLERY (LOAN) BILL.

  (NO. 18.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  EARL GRANVILLE,in rising to move that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that the National Gallery was an institution in which the country felt a just pride, for its merits were on a level with the most distinguished galleries in the world. The object of this Bill was to enable the Directors and Trustees to make loans of pictures to Provincial museums and institutions, and to extend the present buildings. With regard to the works by the Old Masters, there were very few of them which could be 16nt, for they were either of intrinsic value in themselves, or, what was just as important, were instructive as furnishing a history of Art and representing different schools. But as to modern pictures, to which his observations would more particularly apply, there were a certain number that might be dispensed with, and it was quite clear that to lend to galleries in the Provinces pictures that were not wanted in the National Gallery would be a gain to all parties concerned. With regard to the extension of the National Gallery, he might say that the Government proposed to ask the other House to grant a sum of money, £5,000, for the purpose, in order that more space might be provided for the National Collection. He would now move the second reading.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a".—(The Earl Granville.)
  VISCOUNT HARDINGE,as one of the Trustees of the National Gallery, said, the Bill would be a great boon, because it would give some room for the rearrangement of the pictures it contained. At present it would be difficult to carry out that re-arrangement, owing to want of space. The weeding-out, however, would not give the Trustees much more room, as it must not be supposed that they would part with any of their gems of art; but they would lend what modern pictures they could spare. What they wished to do was to distribute to Provincial museums as many pictures of the British school as they could, thus benefiting the artists, the museums, and the public. As for the enlargement of the Gallery, he was glad that a Vote for the purpose was intended to be proposed by the Government. That extension could be very well made in the rear of the present building, and he would suggest that the barracks at present existing in that quarter should be removed, as they only accommodated three companies, and they could easily be provided for in other barracks in the Metropolis, especially at Chelsea, where there were very extensive ones. On behalf of the Trustees, he heartily thanked the Government for the measure.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

PAYMENT OF WAGES IN PUBLIC- HOUSES PROHIBITION BILL.—(No. 1.)
(The Earl Stanhope.)
PAYMENT OF WAGES IN PUBLIC- HOUSES PROHIBITION BILL.—(No. 1.)

  REPORT.
  Amendment reported (according to Order).
  LORD BRAMWELLsaid, he rose for the purpose of calling their Lordships' attention to one or two obvious defects which existed in the provisions of the Bill. For instance, in one of the clauses the prohibition extended to every house for the sale of spirituous or fermented liquors, "or other house of entertainment." This, as he understood, would even include coffee-taverns—an effect which he imagined was not contemplated by the promoters of the Bill. Again, by the prohibition of payment of wages in public-houses, a public-house keeper would be prevented from paying his own servants in his own public-
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  house; besides which, a beershop keeper, who might himself be in the employ of another person, could not receive his earnings on his own premises. It might also include the case of a labourer laid up with illness in a country public-house. He would suggest that it might be advisable that justices of the peace should have power to overrule the operation of this provision in certain cases. He really could not help thinking that their Lordships had had very imperfect material on which to base this change in legislation. The noble Earl who introduced the Bill (Earl Stanhope) seemed to have simply applied to this matter the law passed in respect of miners, and to have concluded that what was good for miners was good for all mankind.
  EARL STANHOPEsaid, that the noble and learned Lord who had just spoken (Lord Bramwell), while objecting to some of the provisions of the Bill, had not brought forward any counter proposal. The words quoted were intended to apply to places attached to public-houses, and not to coffee-taverns; and it was certainly not contemplated that a publican should be prevented from paying his own servants. He hoped their Lordships would agree to the Report, and allow the Bill to go to the other House, where, no doubt, it would receive revision in Committee, and possibly some of the noble Lord's objections might be removed, if they were there thought to be really valid defects.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, it would not be creditable to their Lordships' House to send a Bill to the Commons on the chance of its being amended there. He thought the words referred to must have got into the wrong place. The clause clearly could not remain in its present form, and he would therefore move, as an Amendment, the omission of the words "or other house of entertainment," in order that wages might be allowed to be paid in a temperance house.
  Moved, in Clause 3, page 1, line 25, to omit the words ("or other house of entertainment.")—(The Earl of Kimberley.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he cordially approved of the Amendment, and hoped it would be agreed to.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBUBYsaid, that, in his opinion, the criticisms of the noble and learned Lord (Lord Bramwell) deserved careful consideration. He (the Marquess of Salisbury), as he had previously stated, could not approve of the principle of the Bill, and he therefore hoped the Amendment before their Lordships would be accepted, for the purview of the Bill ought not to be extended beyond what was absolutely necessary.
  EARL STANHOPEsaid, he would accept the Amendment.
  Motion agreed to; words omitted accordingly.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he would further point out the inconvenience arising from a sick workman lodging in a public-house, or of one who might be taken ill therein, being prevented by the Bill from receiving his wages therein. Some alteration ought to be made in the Bill in order to remove this objection.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that under the Bill as it stood the noble Earl himself could not receive his official pay, if he happened to be staying at the time it was due at an hotel.
  EARL STANHOPEpromised to consider the point suggested by the noble Earl (the Earl of Kimberley), and to endeavour to meet it on the third reading, though it would be very difficult to find words which would have the effect desired.
  Bill to be read 3a To-morrow; and to be printed as amended. (No. 21.)

SALE OF LIQUORS ON SUNDAY (IRELAND) BILL.—(No. 17.)
(The Lord Privy Seal.)
SALE OF LIQUORS ON SUNDAY (IRELAND) BILL.—(No. 17.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Beading read.
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRIVY SEAL),in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that their Lordships would remember that the existing Irish Sunday Closing Act passed through that House and became law in 1878, and it would expire in the present year. The object of this Bill was to perpetuate the Act, and to remove from it the exception of the five enumerated towns. The Bill of 1878 was introduced by a private Member; but, although it was
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  greatly favoured by the Government of the day, it experienced in "another place" a very troublesome and difficult course, having met with a very strenuous resistance from a small minority. It had been represented to the Government, and they were themselves convinced of it, that public opinion in Ireland was very strongly, indeed, in favour of the continuance of the measure, and the Government, having been requested to take it into their own hands, had thought it their duty to do so. It was therefore as a Government Bill that he asked their Lordships to give the measure a second reading. As to the success of the Act, which had been in operation a sufficient time to give it a good trial, there had been a war of statistics carried on between the friends and the opponents of the Act; the Irish Temperance Association on the one hand, and the Dublin Licensed Victuallers' Society, representing the trade, on the other. With these statistics he should not attempt to trouble the House at any length. They were not very clear in their effect, and they had, at all events, been pushed beyond the reason of the case by both the friends and the opponents of the Bill. For instance, the friends of the Bill had pointed out that, within the last few years, there had been a decrease in the consumption of spirituous liquors in Ireland to the amount of £2,000,000, and that fact was claimed, more or less, as a result of the Act. He did not himself doubt that the Act had contributed in some measure to that result, neither did he doubt that, on the whole, the effect of the statistics was decidedly in favour of the operation of the Act. But it was equally certain that there had been other causes which had contributed to the result; a growing general feeling in favour of temperance, and also the distress of the country which had led to a smaller consumption of spirituous liquors. But, then, the opponents of the Bill had pointed out that, for two or three years, a similiar diminution of consumption had taken place on this side of the Channel, especially in Scotland. In Scotland, however, the consumption had, he believed, risen again to its original rate; whereas, in Ireland, nothing of the kind had occurred, and the diminution held its ground. The opponents of the Bill then said that the apparent diminution must

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  be accounted for by an increase in the production and consumption of illicit spirits. But the Government had satisfied themselves that that was an entire mistake, and that the Act had not led to any increase of illicit distillation, as was predicted when it was about to pass. He would not go any further into the statistics of general intemperance in Ireland, although they had been much made use of on this subject on both sides; but he would like to tell the House the figures as to Sunday intemperance, which, of course, had more immediate bearing on the Bill. So far as this came within the province of the police by arrests for Sunday drunkenness, these figures appeared to him to be very decidedly in favour of the operation of the Act. It had been ascertained roughly that during the three and a-half years preceding the enactment of this law the number of Sunday arrests in all Ireland, except the five exempted towns, amounted in round numbers to 16,000, and that in the three and a-half years since the Act came into operation, the number had been only 6,000, or a diminution of 60 per cent. Taking the five exempted towns, which, however, were subjected to the very important change of losing the last two hours they formerly had for keeping open in the evening, the Sunday arrests had diminished from 10,000 to 6,500, or 33 per cent. So much for the statistics of the case. Now, as regarded the general success of the measure, and still more as to its increasing and now prevailing and preponderant popularity in Ireland, he thought there could be no doubt whatever. The Government had not failed to use all the means in their power to ascertain the effects of the Act all over the country and the public feeling on the subject, and they had satisfied themselves that upon every point upon which prophecies of evil had been made when the Act was passing those prophecies had not been fulfilled, and that in the general results, with very trifling exceptions, the Act had been highly favourable to the cause of sobriety and good order. They had satisfied themselves that the Act had not had the effect of increasing the number of so-called "shebeen" houses, which was confidently predicted; that the amount of unlawful sales had gone on to a very limited extent; and that the most confident prediction of all—
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  namely, that illicit distillation would increase—had not been fulfilled. On the whole, the Irish Government were satisfied that, all over the country, the preponderant public feeling was in favour of the continuance of the Act, and that that was the feeling of the working classes themselves. Then came the only practical question which he thought would be at issue in the two Houses of Parliament—whether the Act should be extended to the five exempted towns? There was every reason to believe—and that formed the strongest possible argument for the extension of the Act—that, if it had originally included the exempted towns, there would have been the same amount of feeling in its favour in those towns as in the rest of Ireland; and that, in those towns, the great weight of public opinion was on the side of the extension of the Act. It was asserted at the time by its strongest opponents in the other House that there was no reason for exempting those towns, and that every reason given for the Bill applied at least as strongly, if not more strongly, to those towns than it did to the rural districts and the smaller towns of the country. But the exemption was admitted for the sake of peace, and as a matter of precaution and prudence, and to secure the passing of the Bill. Great pains had been taken to ascertain what was the general opinion entertained by the inhabitants of the towns which would be affected by the measure—by a house to house canvass, for instance, and by a circular addressed to all the clergy and the various leading classes of the respective cities and towns—and making every possible allowance for any amount of uncertainty or misconception there might be in such a mode of ascertaining public opinion, the enormous preponderance of the opinions given against the exemption left no doubt at all that the exempted towns were in favour of being brought within the operation of the Act. He submitted that the Act, after a considerable trial, had proved itself to be a success, and that it was viewed with favour by the great majority of Irish. Members of all Parties, because in this case no division of Party whatever was to be found; and he trusted, therefore, that their Lordships would give the Bill a second reading, and that it might become law during the present Session.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Lord Privy Seal.)
  THE EARL OF MILLTOWNsaid, he was satisfied that the Act had proved beneficial to Ireland; and he hoped that, in renewing it, steps would be taken further in the direction either of repealing or modifying the bonâ fide Traveller Clause, which, at present, rendered the Act a mockery, delusion, and a snare, and had proved a stumbling-block alike to the public, the police, and the magistrates. That clause had been differently interpreted in different localities. The Act provided that no one was to be deemed a bonâ fide traveller who had not lodged more than three miles by the shortest road from the house where he obtained his refreshment; and the consequence was, that persons who resided in villages could proceed to other villages beyond the three-mile range, and could enjoy themselves to their heart's content in public-houses during the whole of the Sunday, because the clause had been generally interpreted to mean that anyone who did so reside was thereby constituted a bonâ fide traveller. He did not think there was any advantage in retaining the clause, or that it was the intention of the Legislature that such persons should be regarded as bonâ fide travellers; and, accordingly, when the Bill reached its Committee stage, should it be thought necessary to retain it, he should move Amendments in it, with a view of making certain modifications as regarded it.
  THE EARL OF BELMOREsaid, he was not a new convert to the policy of the Act, having been all along a warm friend of it, and was glad the Government had taken the question of its amendment and perpetuation, a proceeding he most heartily supported. He quite agreed with the noble Lord the Lord Privy Seal, that the sort of statistics put forward for and against the measure were not very trustworthy; but perhaps he might be allowed to refer to the opinion of a gentleman who was well qualified to speak on this subject. He referred to Mr. J. N. Richardson, who was a very large employer of labour, and had erected, in connection with his linen mills, a large village called Bessbrook, near Newry, in which there was not a single public-house, and who had thought it his duty quite recently to
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  address a letter to the Prime Minister, which he had printed and circulated to Members of both Houses of Parliament. This was what he said—
  "I am firmly convinced that if the Ministry had done their first work, and had braved the opposition of the spirit trade, they would have had a greater blessing on their labours for Ireland as well as England. It is a well-known fact that not a meeting for rapine and murder takes place in Ireland at which whisky does not play a prominent part, and that our poor countrymen would be incapable of committing the outrages which have taken place without the stimulus of whisky. It is well known, too, that the amount drunk in whisky and beer at least equalled the rental paid during the last throe years, and we hare proof that where least rent was paid, most whisky was sold. God only knows how many murders were hatched in public-houses, or how many publicans licensed by the Government have taken part in the disturbances."
  And then in another letter, which Mr. Richardson had addressed to a well-known Member of the other House who took great interest in this matter, the writer said—
  "Did it never strike you, in connection with the temperance cause, that Parliament, having for the public benefit considered itself justified in depriving Irish landlords of not less than one-fourth of their income, ought, as a special duty, to consider those who have suffered by its action in these cases? For the serious taxation necessary to support the lunatics, paupers, and criminals manufactured by the drink traffic falls with undiminished weight upon those whose incomes have thus been lessened, and who have been thereby rendered less capable of sustaining it. Why should the brewers, distillers, and publicans be more tenderly dealt with than these Irish landlords, especially as the former are the direct means of this expenditure?"
  Now, he (the Earl of Belmore) knew from his own knowledge, sitting as a magistrate in petty sessions, that that was undoubtedly quite true. He often presided in a town, where the sessions were held once a week, and after the weekly fair day an appalling number of cases of drunkenness came before the bench. They were generally undefended, and did not take long. He should vote for the Bill as a step in the right direction; and he hoped that, at a future date, the licensing laws might be further considered by the Government. With regard to what the noble Earl behind him (the Earl of Milltown) had said as to the bonâ fide Traveller Clause, he believed he was right in describing its effect, and that the magistrates were

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  right in interpreting it as they usually did. This question, however, affected Sunday closing not merely in Ireland, but in England, and was a very large subject, if his noble Friend moved the Amendment he had foreshadowed, he should probably support him; but he wished to reserve himself to see what the proposal really was. He cordially supported the second reading of the Bill.
  LORD O'HAGANsaid, that, in his belief, the Irish Government had had the fullest possible opportunity of knowing what was the real state of the case, both with reference to opinions and to facts. He knew that protestations had been made very earnestly, on one side and the other; and he thought that, in fulfilment of their duty to the country, the conclusion to which the Government had come when they determined to introduce the Bill was a wise conclusion, and one which would be for the benefit of Ireland. He remembered very well the opposition with which the last Bill was received when it was first brought in in the other House of Parliament. It was a most violent and a most persistent opposition. Riots, they were told, would occur if the Bill was passed. They were told that it would be a Bill fraught with the most injurious consequences to Ireland, and that if it were passed it would be productive of all manner of discontent and disturbance in the country; above all, illicit distillation would be certain to ensue. Well, those predictions had been entirely falsified. There was no discontent, no disturbance, no rioting, and no increase of illicit distillation. In point of fact, nothing had occurred since the passing of the Act that would warrant that House in departing from the principle of the measure. On the contrary, everything tended to show that its operation ought to be continued and extended to the exempted towns. The Act had undoubtedly a most beneficial effect on that portion of the country to which its operation extended, and, a fortiori, there was no reason whatever to believe that its effects on the places exempted would not be equally beneficial. They had the best possible evidence that the public opinion of Ireland was in its favour. The result of the inquiries made by the Government, and the large number of Memorials that had been presented to
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  the Government from time to time, showed that in Ireland there was a most marvellous unity amongst men of all classes and creeds in favour of the Act, asking that it should be continued and extended to the exempted towns. The Protestant clergy, the Roman Catholic clergy to a very large extent, and the Presbyterian ministry, had declared in favour of the measure; and their opinion was sustained by the considerable diminution in the consumption of liquor during the time the Act was in operation, and also by the diminution of those peculiar crimes produced by drunkenness in the districts in which Sunday drinking prevailed. There could be no stronger evidence that the measure as it stood was successful, and every consideration that could be presented was now offered to the House to show that it would be successful if it were extended. It was impossible to contend that opinion so expressed should not command the respect of Parliament, and he hoped that the unanimity which that House exhibited when the Bill was before them on the former occasion would be repeated on this, and that it would have an effect on its fate "elsewhere." He gave his most hearty support to the Bill.
  THE EARL OF LIMERICKsaid, he did not rise to oppose the second reading of the Bill, but to express his regret that the House had not before it more decisive statistics, one way or the other, on a matter which affected considerably the freedom of the working classes. But, as the noble Lord the Lord Privy Seal had said, the statistics could be made to prove anything in favour of either party. They certainly appeared to have been made to prove anything on this occasion, for there were statistics on one side to show that the Act had increased drunkenness in the protected districts, while, in the unprotected towns, it had decreased; and, on the other side, there were statistics to prove the exact reverse. As it was, they must make the best of the somewhat conflicting statistics which they had before them. He could speak from a personal knowledge of the ill effects of Saturday night's drinking, and he could say that the Sunday drinking in a Militia regiment with which he was connected was larger than on any other day of the week, except Saturday. Experience showed that

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  drinking was commenced on Saturday, and continued on Sunday; and, if possible, more drinking and disturbances took place on the Saturday night than on Sunday. In fact, if he might be allowed to say so, the Sunday drinking began on Saturday night. There was one most essential point which he desired to press upon Her Majesty's Government, and that was the horrible length to which adulteration was carried. In his opinion more drunkenness, or rather poisoning, arose from a small consumption of bad spirits than from that of a larger quantity of wholesome drink. He had known men to leave barracks, and in a quarter of an hour to be found in the streets in a state of absolute madness, arising from the bad liquor they had drunk. In the lower sort of public-houses there was no doubt that adulteration of a most injurious kind was carried on to an enormous extent, and to a degree that was positively injurious to health. He hoped that at some future day the Government would seriously take into consideration this question of adulteration.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

ARMY (AUXILIARY FORCES)—THE MILITIA.

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  THE EARL OF GALLOWAY,in rising to call attention to the disastrous results to recruiting for the Militia caused by the changes in the mode of training instituted by Mr. Childers in 1881; and to ask the Under Secretary of State for War, whether it is owing to the 20 per cent diminution thus caused in the strength of the fourth Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers that it has been just officially decided to reduce its establishment by two companies or 200 men, and officers and non-commissioned officers in proportion, from the 1st of April next; also, if any other Militia battalions are to be similarly reduced; also, to move—
  "For a Return showing the loss in numbers occasioned to Militia battalions trained at the brigade depots under the new system compared with those Militia battalions detached from depots, and, in consequence, permitted to train as heretofore,"
  said, he must remind their Lordships that it was not yet two years ago since
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  he brought before them two special points connected with the Military Service. One was with regard to the then impending re-organization of the Army, which had since become an accomplished fact; and the other was in regard to the waste of the Army. On neither occasion did he receive any support from the Government side of the House, nor on his own side, except from his lamented Friend the late Lord Airey. But now that he had read the Report of the Inspector General of Recruiting for this year, and the article of Sir Lintorn Simmons in The Nineteenth Century, he could not say that he had any cause for regret in having troubled their Lordships, and he thought also this present Notice was more than ever desirable. Much had been said in one place and another with regard to the immense benefits the nation had derived from the re-organization introduced within the last three years by Mr. Childers; but he thought there were only three points on which that right hon. Gentleman could be congratulated. The first was for having been induced to increase the term of service for the Army; secondly, having permitted the re-engagement of non-commissioned officers; and, thirdly, having seen fit to increase the strength of the battalions forming the first Corps d'Armée, so as to keep it always ready for foreign service. For those measures the country was indebted to Mr. Childers; but he would remind their Lordships that those three points were recommended by Lord Airey's Committee. He should like to have been able to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the success of a fourth point—namely, in having raised the age of recruits from 18 to 19. As had been anticipated, however, the Report of the Inspector General of Recruiting showed that the alteration had not answered, and that there was a difficulty in obtaining recruits. The subject of the waste in the Army and the Militia was also a matter for most serious consideration. It had been ascertained that, in the three years previous to the Report of Lord Airey's Committee, there was an annual waste in the Army of an average of 9,000 men, at a cost of £500,000. That Committee made two recommendations with regard to waste in the Army. One was, that there should be established large training centres, the object being to check

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  the large amount of fraudulent enlistments; and the other was, that of unlinking the battalions so as to obviate the shifting of soldiers from one battalion to another. He was sorry to say these recommendations had not been carried out, and that the authorities, while neglecting the recommendations of the Committee, had created a number of phantom battalions of Militia. Of about 30 fourth Militia battalions, only half were as yet formed. He wished specially to call attention to the Report of the Inspector General of Recruiting. Last year, that officer wrote of the system of drilling Militia recruits on enlistment, that it was too early as yet to form a correct opinion of the probable results of the plan. He stated, however, that, during 1881, there had been a diminution of the waste of the Militia, and that the saving had occurred chiefly among the absentees, and among the men discharged as invalids. He added, however, that it was anticipated that, as the new system of drilling became more general, the waste would be still further reduced. It was to be regretted that this anticipation was not realized, and that, in the following year, the Inspector General should, on the contrary, have had to report a considerable increase of waste. The figures with regard to deserters in the Army again were by no means satisfactory. In the five years 1876–1880, the average number of deserters was 2,631; in 1881, the number was 2,560, and in 1882, 2,612. The statistics of invalids in the Army were as follows:—In 1876–1880, the average number of recruits was 27,614, of whom there were discharged as invalids, in 1876, 408, or 14·7 per 1,000; in 1881, 287, or 10·9 per 1,000; and in 1882, when only 23,801 men were enlisted, 284, or 11·9 per 1,000 were discharged as invalids. Bearing these facts in mind, it seemed to him most unwise to reduce the number of the Militia at present. It appeared from the Inspector General's Report that, according to an actuarial calculation, the number of recruits required for 1883 would be 18,000; and, if the demands of the Service did not exceed its normal requirements, the number would probably be obtained; but the deficiencies from last year, and the increased waste, made it necessary to obtain as many as 22,500 recruits. It was to meet the ad-
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  mitted deficiency that some special measures were necessary; and therefore the manner in which to solve the problem, the Secretary of State for War appeared to think, was to reduce the number of the establishment they already had. According to actuarial calculations of the number of recruits really needed, there must be a deficiency at the end of the year of 5,720; for we were told they had been coming in at the rate of 330 a-week, when the number ought to be 440. This, therefore, was not a time to throw away what we had got, and to reduce the number of the old Constitutional Force of the country. It was, as he had said, a most unwise proceeding; and what he was certain of was this, that they would have to come to in the end, not an Army Reserve, but a Militia Reserve. The Inspector General appeared desirous of doing what he could to bolster up the new mode of bringing recruits on the roll; and he fell into the error of alluding to recruits trained immediately on their enrolment, as being thoroughly-trained soldiers, whereas they had hardly got beyond squad-drill, and had had no opportunity of learning thoroughly how to use their arms. As to the preliminary drill, it appeared that 9 per cent of the recruits failed to present themselves, or to account for their absence. Men would not join the Militia, and there was no increase of Line recruits, nor was there any actual increase of men going to the Army from the Militia, although the Returns would make such appear to be the case, because the men who went to the Army from the Militia as recruits were those who had only enrolled in the one, in order to enlist in the other after receiving the bounty allowed to the recruit entering the Militia, but not allowed when enlisting into the Army direct. In one paragraph, the Inspector General practically admitted that the present system could not be pursued with advantage. The Secretary of State for War was reported to have said that recruits were henceforth to be asked at exactly what time they would be likely to attend drill; but this could hardly be done except in special cases. It was to be regretted that, in one sentence, the Inspector General had insinuated that any want of success in the new scheme was partly attributable to officers commanding regi-

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  mental districts not doing their best; and some officers had written to him resenting this innuendo. Indeed, there was no reason whatever for such remarks upon a body of gentlemen who had the interests of the Service at heart, and whose only desire was to keep up the recruiting. One of the officers wrote—
  "The new scheme has been successful only in the Metropolitan and other large districts, in which a Militiaman proper—viz. a working man (not a tramp or loafer), with a settled habitation and homo—never existed."
  Another wrote—
  "I am told on all sides that the Army Reserve is what scares men from enlisting. The calling out of the Reserves during the last Russian panic has had a most prejudicial effect on recruiting. Reserve men were thrown out of work, and found it hard to got employment afterwards."
  But, in addition, the difficulties must be attributed to the effect of the new system of recruiting and of drilling Militiamen in barracks, which was intended so far to popularize the Army, and familiarize it with Militiamen and the working classes, as to render the Militia more than ever a feeder for the Line. Its first effect, on the contrary, was to reduce the feeding source two-tenths nominally, but actually one-fourth, in about a year, in the case, at any rate, of some regiments. It appeared also that, in another part of Scotland, the class of men who did come forward were altogether different from those who formerly filled the ranks. One sergeant, specially told off to recruit in one district, made this significant remark—"Men say they would rather join the Army at once, as the Militia no longer exists." He (the Earl of Galloway) thought that one reason why it was so difficult to obtain recruits was the short-sighted policy of the Secretary of State for War last year in keeping out several Militia regiments for two months, and only allowing them one month's bounty. He should like to quote from the Report which he had been already referring to, the number of effectives given by the Inspector General of Recruiting. The numbers were 118,310 on the 1st of March in 1881, and 112,953 in 1882; while in 1883 they were only 106,054. Therefore, there had been a diminution of upwards of 12,000 men in the effective strength of the Militia in the last two
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  years, and yet this was the time when the Secretary of State for War proposed to reduce the number of the Militia establishment still further. Everybody who read the Report would admit that the natural conclusions to draw were these. First, that, in order to keep up the flow of recruits in the Army, we ought to return to the age of 18 for enlistment, and, consequently, to increase the term of service in the ranks; and, secondly, that it would be necessary to increase, instead of reducing, the numbers of both the Militia and the Militia Reserve. With regard to the proposed reduction in the 4th Battalion of the Royal Scotch Fusiliers, he wished to know whether it was caused by the diminution in the numbers in that battalion last year, caused, as this had been, entirely by the unfortunate changes made in the mode of training the recruit to which he had already adverted? In conclusion, he would move for the Return of which he had given Notice.
  Moved, "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for Return, showing the loss in numbers occasioned to Militia battalions trained at the brigade depots under the new system compared with those Militia battalions detached from depots, and, in consequence, permitted to train as heretofore."—(The Earl of Galloway.)
  THE DUKE OF MONTROSEsaid, he must endorse every word that had been uttered by the noble Earl (the Earl of Galloway) as to the difficulty of obtaining recruits under the new system. He (the Duke of Montrose) had the honour to command a battalion of Militia, which required recruits in a great degree, and he put down the difficulty to two new arrangements which were made under the now system. One was that they did not pay the bounty to the men at the time they entered the regiments. In Scotland, the best time for recruiting was the first or second weeks in the New Year. That was the festive season, when men were in need of money to meet the necessary expenses of the time, and, in his case, they never had any difficulty before the new system came in force. Instead of giving the men the bounty at the time they enlisted, as under the old system, they were now given it at the end of the term, which was not a sufficient inducement to them to come forward, because they wanted their money at the time they joined,

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  The other reason of the difficulty was owing to the fact that masters would not keep open employment for the men a second time; and he should he glad to see that difficulty met in some way. The result was that men went to the battalions where the old system was in operation, thus showing a distinct preference for it.
  THE EARL OF POWISalso complained of the operation of the new system of drilling and training the Militia recruits as it affected regiments in the Midland counties of Shropshire and Staffordshire, mentioning, among other things, that the Shropshire regiment was now 200 under its number. He hoped commanding officers would have the option of having their recruits drilled as heretofore.
  THE EARL OF MORLEYsaid, that if the noble Earl who introduced that subject (the Earl of Galloway) had given Notice that he was going to call attention to the general state of the Army, or to the Report of the Inspector General of Recruiting, he should not have had any right to complain of the speech he had made; but almost the whole of the first part of that speech was devoted to an elaborate vindication of the speeches which the noble Earl had delivered two or three years ago. As, however, the noble Earl had admitted that those speeches had met with scant encouragement from either side of the House, or from the Cross Benches, it was unnecessary for him (the Earl of Morley) to repeat the arguments which he had used on former occasions in answer to the noble Earl. But, before sitting down, the noble Earl referred to the Question he had had on the Paper for some time; and he (the Earl of Morley) would now endeavour to answer the Questions addressed to him. The first object for which the new system of drilling the Militia on enrolment was introduced was to enable recruits to drill whenever it was most convenient to them. When the noble Earl, last year, called attention to the results of that system, he promised to cause an inquiry to be made into them before another season, with the view of adopting any improvement which experience might render desirable. The noble Earl talked of the disastrous results of the system—rather strong terms to use with the Report, from which he had quoted so largely, be-
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  fore him. He would admit that there had been a falling off in the number of recruits for the Militia in the last year, and that falling off in some cases was considerable. The number of recruits for the Militia, between the trainings of 1881–2, was about 2,500 fewer than in the corresponding time of 1880–1; but the diminution affected not only those battalions which had their head-quarters at the depots of their territorial regiments, but those which were detached from head-quarters where the old system of holding preliminary drill immediately before training was maintained. The system of drilling on enrolment was only applied to the Militia battalions which had their head-quarters at the depots of their territorial regiments; all the other regiments were drilled on the old system, receiving 10 s. immediately on enlistment, and the remaining sovereign at the end of the preliminary drill and training, which were continuous. He did not think it necessary to give the figures in great detail on that subject, because they were put with extreme succinctness in the Report of the Inspector General of Recruiting, to which reference had been made. He quite agreed that the co-existence of the two systems might be undesirable, and that, in some instances, it might act prejudicially on the regiments which had the less popular form of enrolment. But in the view of the War Department it required some wide experience—not an experience confined to single regiments or single districts—to enable them to judge of the results of the system. In some districts it might be more convenient for the men to come into drill when they were out of work; or it might be more popular, both with the commanding officers and the men, that they should come in as they formerly did, and have the preliminary drill of 63 days and the training continuously. It was now proposed that the recruits should have the absolute option in all the regiments of doing as they liked, of drilling either immediately they were enlisted, or at a later period. The object of the Secretary of State for War was to make service in the Militia as convenient and as popular as possible. Under the new system, the recruit would be able to suit his preliminary drill to the requirements of his civil employment. It was rather a remarkable fact that, although the Militia

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  recruits who enlisted between the raining for 1881–2 were somewhat less numerous than those who enlisted in 1880–1, yet the actual number of recruits in the calendar year 1882 were about 1,000 more than the recruits in the year 1881. Therefore, looking at the general effect of the system introduced last year, the number of recruits had not materially diminished. It was not intended to give the 10 s. bounty immediately on enrolment; and on this point he disagreed with the noble Duke (the Duke of Montrose), because, if it were given to the Militia, it would stop almost every other avenue of recruiting to the Army but that one. If they gave it to the Militia, they must give it to the Army recruits also, or the men would enter the Army only through the Militia. One of the results of giving that sum immediately on enrolment was that a vast number of recruits took the 10s. and never appeared for the preliminary drill, and there was a consequent loss to the country; but last year there were absent from preliminary drill only 200 of those who drilled on enrolment—that was, T30 per cent. Of those who drilled immediately before training, 9 per cent were absent from preliminary drill. In 1881, 13 per cent of the recruits were absent from preliminary drill. So, admitting a diminution in the actual number of recruits, the number of those who went through preliminary drill was not very different in the two years. In 20 cases the regiments in which the recruits were drilled on enrolment showed better recruiting than in previous years. In 14 cases the recruiting was much worse, and in the remainder it was about the same. These figures required some allowance; but it must be remembered that waste was always going on, and, in spite of whatever was done, would continue to go on. He admitted the great importance of making every endeavour to reduce the waste to a minimum. It was now proposed to grant a larger sum to those who did not divide their services into two portions. One pound was at present given for preliminary drill, and a second £1 was given for the annual training; but if the preliminary drill and training were continuous, it was now intended to give 30s. in addition to the £1 at the beginning. As a proof that the Militia was not decreasing in popularity, he desired to call
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  attention to the large number of re-engagements, which were nearly double what they were in former years. In 1880 the number of re-engagements was 4,790; in 1881, 6,000; and last year they rose to 9,000. He believed he had now dealt with most of the points raised by the noble Earl on the subject of recruiting and the methods by which the Government proposed to meet some of his objections. The noble Earl had referred to a paragraph in the Report of the Inspector General of Recruiting, in which he said that success under the new system depended upon the officers commanding regimental districts; and the noble Earl suggested that this was intended as a back-handed blow at these officers. The Government repudiated any such intention. It was, however, quite true that the success of any system depended on the zeal and efficacy of those by whom it was carried out. The last point raised by the noble Earl was as to the reduction in the establishment of a regiment. In answer to that, the reduction of the 4th Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers by two companies was to take place in conformity with the territorial organization of the Forces. It was intended by degrees to give all Militia battalions a uniform strength of eight companies, and to carry out in its entirety the territorial scheme. The Government were gradually adding second battalions of Militia affiliated to regiments in which they did not exist; and they trusted that in a very few years there would be very few districts where there would not be two battalions of Militia as well as of the Regular Forces. It was proposed to complete the system laid clown by Lord Cardwell, and continued by Mr. Childers, of attaching to each regimental district one Line and two Militia regiments, each with its eight companies. The present change was merely part of a system now being carried out in all the Militia regiments throughout the country. The noble Earl had moved for a Return. Of course, it would be granted, if it were insisted on; but he deprecated its being given, on account of the considerable time and expense which would be occasioned without any adequate result. In his opinion, the Report of the Inspector General of Recruiting would furnish the noble Earl with all the information that was desirable.
  THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANsaid, he could not refrain from expressing the regret he felt that the reply just given had not indicated that more encouragement would be given to recruiting in the Militia. He did not, however, agree with the noble Earl (the Earl of Galloway) in his remarks upon the Army, because he was, for one, strongly in favour of the Militia Force being made as efficient as possible under the new system. As to the preliminary drill being undergone at the option of the recruits, he strongly objected to such a system, as it would affect discipline at the very onset. If some recruits preferred to drill at one time and some at another, how could any system be properly carried out? The system, moreover, would entirely do away with the retention of Militiamen under the orders of their own officers, which it was so important to secure. He was glad to see that the subject had received the attention of the Government since the discussion last year, and he hoped that next year they would be able to come to their Lordships and say they would revert to the old system. He thought that the Militia should be drilled by their own officers; and he also thought that the men should be paid 10 s. on enlisting. There was another point which did not appear to have received the attention of the War Office—namely, that the class of men who went into the Militia were not at all the same class as went into the Army. With respect to the Militia He-serve, he was in favour of providing as strong a Force as could be got; but he thought that the present system of giving bounties in connection with it was a great waste of public money. Their Lordships could not expect the Government to do more at this moment than they had; but, if they continued in the same road, he felt perfectly certain that everything would be found entirely satisfactory next year.
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOKsaid, that he did not intend to follow up the arguments that had been so ably advanced by the noble Duke (the Duke of Montrose) and others on the Militia generally in the course of the debate. When the Militia Reserve was last called out he was strongly impressed in its favour, and he thought it should be kept in a much higher state of numbers than it was in at present. It struck him that
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  when one looked at the slow growth of the Regular body of the Army Reserve, there ought to be some stronger Force than that was. That Reserve had, no doubt, increased in recent years, but not to anything like the extent anticipated by Lord Cardwell, who expected that in a very few years it would have amounted to 81,000 men. A more complete delusion never existed; and it was rather based upon arithmetical than practical calculations. When he (Viscount Cranbrook) was at the War Office, great efforts had been made to get additional force into the Reserve, and with considerable success, as had been tested by experience. When the Militia Re-serves were called out in his time, he well remembered that the illustrous Duke at the head of the Army said, after inspecting them, that in a short time it would be difficult to distinguish them from the Army Reserves, showing what excellent drill they had received. He thought that some steps should now be taken to keep up that Reserve. It was probably some 23,000 or 24,000 strong, though, according to the books, it consisted of 27,000 men. After deductions, the 27,000 would be brought down to the number he had named. If the Militia Reserve were increased and kept up, it would be most useful to fall back upon in times of trouble; and it seemed to him that a greater number might very easily be procured. The point, however, which he wished to impress upon the Government was the necessity for giving both the Army and the Militia alike some period of rest, so that men might know what they had to expect. Nothing had more checked recruiting than the continual changes that were made, and which were so rapid and so constant as to cause the utmost disquiet, people having only the most indistinct notion of what was ultimately to become of them. He hoped that they had at last come to the time when the Army and the Militia might understand that they were upon a footing which would not be disturbed for many years.
  THE EARL OF LIMERICKsaid, he also must be allowed to express his regret that the Government had decided to permit Militia recruits to drill at any time they chose, and trusted the Government would re-consider their decision upon the point. From his experience

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  as the commanding officer of a battalion detached from the depôt, he did not think the plan would work, for the men would come in in small numbers at different periods, and that would be detrimental to good discipline. They now had about 150 or 200 recruits drilled together; but, in the event of there being only a few men, it would be impossible to teach them anything but the most elementary squad-drill.
  THE EARL OF GALLOWAY,in reply, said, that, after the discussion which had taken place, he would withdraw his Motion.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

AFRICA (EAST COAST)—THE ISLAND OF IBO.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD BALFOURasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether he can give the House any information as to a visit of the French ship "Eloise" to the Island of Ibo, alleged to have taken place early in February, for the purpose of procuring "labourers" for the French colonies; whether, in consequence of the visit, a considerable number of the natives assembled armed, and the Portuguese military authorities intervened, killing or wounding seventy-five of the natives and putting the remainder to flight? A telegram to that effect appeared in the newspapers about a month ago; and he had seen neither contradiction nor confirmation of it since that time. Suspicion would naturally be raised by such a description as this, that the Natives were afraid the labour market was not to be one conducted fairly on both sides, and that the labourers would be practically slaves. The Island of Ibo, about 500 miles from Madagascar, was conveniently situated in regard to the mainland of the African Continent, and from the coast there was a route into the interior towards Lake Nyassa, where it was conjectured some slave gangs had been taken.
  EARL GEANVILLE,in reply, said, that until the noble Lord's Question appeared upon the Notice Paper, he had heard nothing about the incident referred to. The Portuguese Government itself knew nothing about the matter,
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  but information had been telegraphed for.
  House adjourned at Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.