Lords Sitting of 9 March 1883

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Land Law (Ireland), nominated.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Sale of Liquors on Sunday (Ireland) * [17].
Third Reading—Consolidated Fund, &c. (Permanent Charges Redemption) Act (1873) Amendment* [13], and passed.

MALTA (CONSTITUTION AND ADMINISTRATION).

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  EARL DE LA WARR,in rising to call attention to the affairs of Malta, with special reference to Correspondence respecting the constitution and administration of Malta presented to Parliament in August, 1882; and to move for further Papers and Correspondence relating thereto, said, that the subject was one which had often engaged the attention of Parliament and of the Government. There had been Petitions, addresses to Colonial Secretaries, correspondence with the Maltese Government, and all substantially agreeing in one point—namely, that some modification was required in the form of Government now existing in the Island. The Papers showed how far from satisfactory was the condition of the inhabitants. Poverty and mendicity were constantly increasing. The dwellings of the labouring class and poor were unhealthy; agriculture from various causes was not developed; commerce and shipbuilding were almost at a standstill, while no efforts were made to encourage industry and enterprize. He did not propose to enter into details upon these subjects; but he might add, from his personal knowledge of Malta, that he did not think that picture was very far from being correct. As to the alleged cause of distress and want of improvement in the country, it might be briefly stated that it was attributed to the form of Government which had existed in Malta since it became a part of the British Dominions. It was that there was a Military Governor only, and that there was no Civil Administrator of the civil functions of the Government. During the period that Malta had been annexed to the British Crown there had been one Civil Governor, Mr. More O'Ferrall, and he held the office only a short time. As to the objection which was sometimes raised with regard to the appointment of a Civil Governor in place of a military one—that Malta being a fortress of great importance to the Imperial interests of this country it would not be possible to intrust the supreme authority to a civilian—he admitted there was some weight in the argument; but it might be answered that the General commanding the forces would retain the entire military autho-
  1882
  rity and command of Malta as a fortress, but at the same time there might be a Civil Administrator responsible to the Colonial Office, who would preside, assisted by a Council, over the local and general internal affairs of the country. Precedents of such a kind might be found in the Colonies; but in hardly any of the British Dependencies had British subjects had so few British rights in the way of self-government as the Maltese. In reviewing the history of Malta since it first became subject to the British Crown, which it did by its own act, it was hardly possible not to see that Malta had been regarded almost as a fortress only, with comparatively little consideration for its development as a country possessing a hard-working and industrious population. It had been heavily taxed for Imperial purposes, while, at the same time, little progress had been made in the material welfare of the people. He was not arguing that great advantages would at once be gained by the appointment of a Civil Governor; it would be a work of time. Neither did he suppose that much good had not resulted from the office being held by distinguished military men, acting under the highest sense of duty and responsibility as Governors; but, at the same time, he could not but think that if a Civil Administrator were appointed benefits would accrue in the development of the resources of the country, and in promoting the general welfare of the population. But there was a further question, not necessarily, though in a great measure, connected with that to which he had referred—he meant not only the extension of the franchise in the election of non-official Members of the Council, but that the Council should have a greater control over the expenditure of the country, and in matters of local legislation and the imposition of taxes. Very urgent representations had, from time to time, been made by persons of influence, and by the inhabitants generally of Malta, showing that control in these matters was enjoyed by British subjects in almost all other places. A Petition, signed by upwards of 8,000 inhabitants, was presented to Parliament in 1879; this was followed by an address to which a reply was given by the noble Earl opposite, then Colonial Secretary, and now Secretary of State for India. That reply was referred to in a subse-

  1883
  quent Petition as having "produced a most painful impression among the whole population," the noble Earl having declined to take any steps in answer to the prayer of the Petition. It was not difficult to see whore the objection laid with regard to this Council. The Council was composed of 10 official Members, and eight elected Members; consequently, when any question arose, not only of Imperial interest, but also of local interest or taxation, the vote might be carried by the official Members against the elected Members of the Council. This occurred in a recent instance on a question of drainage, where the unanimous vote of the elected Members was defeated by the votes of the official Members. He regretted to find that the noble Earl (the Earl of Carnarvon), who was not now in his place, laid down this doctrine, when Colonial Secretary, that this power of out-voting the elected Members should be retained by the Imperial Government, even on questions of local interest and taxation. Very different, however, was the language of some other Colonial Secretaries. Lord Card-well, when Colonial Secretary in 1884, said—
  "I will, however, take this opportunity of expressing the desire of Her Majesty's Government that this principle should never be lost sight of by those who administer the Government of Malta—that great consideration should be shown to the opinions of the elected Members of Council in matters of local and domestic interest; and, above all, that no Vote of money should be passed against the majority of the elected Members except under very special circumstances in which the public interests or credit were seriously at stake."
  Lord Grey also in 1853, when Colonial Secretary, in Lord Russell's Government, said that every opportunity ought to be taken of giving increased development to representative institutions where they already existed, but in an imperfect order; and he added that it was wise and politic to intrust the civil government to a person—Mr. More O'Ferrall—who, not being burdened with the command of the troops, might have more leisure to look closely into the state of its civil affairs, and ascertain what improvements were required in their management. He believed that they might look for these questions, so vital to the interests of Malta, meeting with due consideration at the hands of Her Majesty's Government. The noble Earl
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  opposite the late Secretary of State for the Colonies (the Earl of Kimberley), in a despatch of the 24th of June, 1882, now took a more favourable view of the claims of the Maltese people. He said—
  "The arguments in favour of appointing a Civil Governor to administer the Government of Malta have received my special attention."
  And, again—
  "I do not desire it to be supposed that I am insensible to the considerations to which it may be admitted the present circumstances of the Island lend increasing force in favour of intrusting the Government to a civil officer of experience."
  These statements afforded ground for hope that the just and reasonable demands of the Maltese people would receive fair consideration, and that the inhabitants of the Island would be placed under a Government which would give to British subjects British rights by enabling them to manage their local and domestic affairs, and to exercise a due control over the taxation of the country.
  Moved, "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for further papers and correspondence respecting the constitution and administration of Malta."—(The Earl De La Warr.)
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHsaid, that he had recently returned from Malta, where he had heard a great deal of the subjects referred to by the noble Earl. In his opinion—and his experience of Malta extended over 40 years—it was not correct to say that the inhabitants were unanimously in favour of the appointment of a Civil Governor. The Maltese did not speak of the days when the affairs of the Island were administered by a Civil Governor as days of unusual prosperity. It was true the rule of Mr. More O'Ferrall had been very popular; but then the fact of that gentleman being a Roman Catholic prejudiced the Islanders somewhat in his favour. The appointment of a Civil Governor was not the great want in Malta. What the people complained of was that proper sympathy was not extended to them by the authorities at home and those who governed them, and this complaint should receive consideration. The late Secretary of State for the Colonies said on one occasion that he was of opinion that the number of voters was not in proportion to the population of the Island, and held out hopes that the sub-

  1885
  ject would receive the attention of the Government. At present there were only 2,300 electors out of a population of 150,000. The noble Earl, with less than his usual accuracy, said that the franchise should be extended to all persons who paid rates and taxes. There was, however, no such person as a taxpayer in the Island; and people thought that, by making such a statement, the noble Earl showed that he had not paid so much attention to the question as he ought to have paid to it. The fact was that the people of Malta had been treated more like a conquered people than as men who ought to possess the rights of British subjects. The higher classes of the population were very intelligent and able; and the lower ranked among the most industrious communities of the world. The people were much interested in all the affairs of the Island, and they felt that they had not that share in its representation which they deserved. They were most sincerely attached to the British Crown, and desired to retain their connection with England. It was an error to suppose that the Island was in a wretched condition. In all directions signs of improvement were to be seen, and agriculture was in as flourishing a condition as it could possibly be in. It was a matter for regret that there was not more sympathy between the English officials and their Maltese fellow-subjects. The want of such sympathy, and not the absence of a Civil Governor, was the principal cause of discontent in the Island.
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he thought the practice of discussing in that House the affairs of our Colonial Dependencies was a satisfactory practice, for those who resided in the Colonies were thus made aware of the interest felt at home in their well-being. He was glad, therefore, that the noble Earl had introduced this subject. Though he could not entirely approve some of the arguments that had been used, or accept as correct all the statements which had been made, he was not disposed to enter into a controversy with the noble Earl. He felt, in fact, bound to accept many of the conclusions at which the Mover of the Resolution had arrived. He thought, however, that his noble Friend had drawn rather too gloomy a picture of the material condition of the Island. No doubt a good deal of poverty was
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  prevalent; but it would be difficult to show that that poverty had been produced by administrative neglect or mismanagement. It was the natural consequence of the presence of a very dense population within narrow confines on a barren soil. His noble Friend (Viscount Sidmouth) spoke of a want of sympathy with the people as prevailing among the official classes, and of a feeling that improvements were discouraged. That was a charge of so comprehensive a character that it was impossible to deal with it in the absence of details. The only local improvements about which much interest had been excited lately were the repeal of the import duty on grain and the new drainage scheme, which was declared by the best local sanitary authorities to be indispensable. The people objected to the removal of the import duty and the substitution in its place of a direct tax. The drainage scheme also was the subject of very great complaint; so that in these, the only cases of the kind that had recently occurred, the officials were in favour of improvement, and the people against it. Setting those questions aside, he agreed with the general views expressed by his noble Friends. There was no disaffection in Malta, and the people had no desire to be placed under any other Government. They were too few to entertain the idea of standing alone, and they certainly did not desire that the Island should be annexed to Italy; for if it were annexed to that country, they would be much more heavily taxed than they were now. He believed the people of Malta were sincerely attached to the British connection; but there was, no doubt, a certain amount of discontent in the Island, arising from causes to a great extent of a local character. The first question which his noble Relative mentioned was the question of a Civil as against a Military Governor. That was not a question on which opinion in the Island was unanimous; it was one very open to argument, and of which the merits were not all on one side. The argument in favour of a Civil Governor was that a Military Government confined itself to military interests, and did not extend its care to the requirements of the civil population. The argument against a Civil Governor was the obvious inconvenience of separating the civil from the

  1887
  military power, and dividing the decision I of questions connected with one another between two co-ordinate authorities, who, if they were not more than ordinarily prudent and cautious, were likely to be brought into collision. The question was an important one, he fully admitted; but no change could be made, if it were to be made at all, until the expiration of the present Governor's term of Office, and that would not be for a period of one or two years. Upon that matter, therefore, he suspended the expression of any opinion. He would only say that he would give a careful consideration to the question when the time came. With regard to the Legislative Council, two matters were made the subject of complaint. One was that the elected Members wore chosen on too narrow a basis; and the other that, from the composition of the Council, the elected Members were always outvoted by the official Members. With regard to the first of these complaints, he had dealt with it already. The number of electors was now, he believed, a little over 2,000; but by an arrangement already made, the Letters Patent having been granted, the suffrage would be extended to about a £6 rating. The effect of that would be to substitute some 6,000 electors for the 2,000 and odd who now held the franchise That would not be considered a very revolutionary change, the total number of the inhabitants being upwards of 150,000. At the same time, it multiplied the present electoral body nearly three-fold, and was a substantial concession. With regard to the other and probably more important question, that of the powers which the Legislative Council exercised, he had thought it desirable to deal with that also. Undoubtedly, it was a fair ground of complaint if the elected Members of the Council were, on purely local matters, liable to be outnumbered and outvoted by an official body which gave its vote as one man. He had endeavoured to deal with that grievance by limiting the number of officials who should attend the meetings of the Council to a number equal to that of the non-official or elected Members, so that the two parties would exactly balance each other. He did not propose that the Governor should, as a general rule, vote at all; it was only in case of an exact balance of votes that he would give a casting vote. The
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  Governor was directed that if the question was one, in his judgment, involving only local interests, and in which no Imperial interests were concerned, he was to accept the decision of the elected Members. If, on the other hand, Imperial matters were concerned, then the Governor might either suspend his decision, or, if he thought fit, he might outvote by his casting vote the elected Members. But, in case of his so doing, he was immediately to report the fact to the Secretary of State. The consequence would be that his powers would not be exercised except under the immediate supervision and control of the Colonial Office. He did not know whether that concession would satisfy all who had complained; possibly not; but it was a very large concession to their reasonable wants, and it would exhibit evidence of a desire to make local self-government in matters not affecting Imperial interests a reality and not a mere show. Another proposal was that, instead of all the electors voting in one constituency, the Island should be divided into electoral districts, seven or eight in number. That proposition had been inquired into. It was one which he saw no reason for opposing. It was a point on which local opinion and local feelings should be consulted, and he proposed to leave it to the Legislative Council to deal with as they might think fit. His noble Friend would see that he had to a very considerable extent anticipated his requests, and had brought, or was bringing, into operation changes which those whom his noble Friend represented desired. He had laid the Papers on the Table that afternoon, and he believed they would be in the hands of their Lordships some time next week.
  THE EARL OF BELMOREsaid, that it appeared from the Papers that what the Petitioners asked for was that a Civil Governor might be appointed, who should be subordinate to a Military Governor. He thought he was correct in saying that there was no modern instance of such an arrangement. In Ireland there was a Lord Lieutenant and a Military Commander-in-Chief under him; but that was the reverse of what was now asked for. He should like to ask whether the noble Earl would think it desirable to advise Her Majesty to appoint a Civil Governor, who should be subordinate to a Military one?
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he had stated that he did not contemplate any change, because the question would not arise for one or two years. Until then he could not decide.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

AFRICA (WEST COAST)—THE CONGO RIVER.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD MOUNT-TEMPLE: I wish to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether it is in the contemplation of Her Majesty's Government to recognize the claim of Portugal to dominion over the territory adjoining the River Congo; and, if so, whether he has reason to anticipate that the policy that has hitherto prevailed in that territory will not be reversed in regard to the Slave Trade and freedom of commerce? I have been prompted in this matter by the alarm of the manufacturers and merchants concerned in the trade of this district. They are of opinion that if the Portuguese should succeed in exercising a Sovereign jurisdiction over the Native Tribes of that country, the restrictive and obstructive policy which has hitherto been characteristic of the Portuguese Government would seriously interfere with the existing trade, and would also prevent that full development of it which is now anticipated. There is every reason to believe that hereafter the River Congo may become the great highway to Inland Tribes, who are industrious and peaceful, and ready to enter into commercial relationship with Europeans. The civilization of these African Tribes appears to depend in a great measure upon free and legitimate commerce with Europeans; and, therefore, all who are interested in the development of the civilization of the African Tribes must be interested in the answer that the noble Earl will give to my Question.
  EARL GRANVILLE: I am glad that the noble Lord has put this Question to me, as it will enable me, I trust, to put an end to misapprehensions which seem to exist, and which, to a certain degree, are shared by himself, as to this important matter. It appears to be supposed by some that Her Majesty's Government propose to give up a vast extent of territory which belongs to this country, with some vague hope that the Portuguese
  1890
  will furnish an obstacle to the ambitious designs of other Powers. The noble Lord is not misinformed to this extent; but even he has considerable misapprehensions on the subject. I do not think it is unnatural that those who have taken a great interest, either in the question of slavery or as to the question of religious efforts, or on questions of trade and commerce in these countries, should feel most sensitive with regard to any proceedings that are likely to be taken. It is not so very long ago that the interests of Europeans in the Congo and other African Rivers were centred in the desire of monopolizing the Slave Trade in them. It will be a great glory for this country that she took the lead in reversing this policy and leading the way to a suppression of this abominable traffic. But a great change has come over the African question. The labours of men like Livingstone, of Stanley, and others, have given us a knowledge of the physical character of Central Africa, and of the populations which inhabit it, showing that there are great capabilities for the development of trade, and we are now better informed as to the civilizing effects which are the sure results of commerce. The work of the Philanthropic International Association, in which the King of the Belgians takes a great interest, the mission of M. do Brazza, the increasing trade in different degrees of the English, the Portuguese, the French, the Germans, the Dutch, and the Belgians on the Congo and its banks, is acting as a stimulus, and affords grounds why no reasonable endeavours should be neglected to insure freedom of commerce and navigation, and to anticipate possible jealousies, which so easily check trade, and which, under the pretence of securing peculiar advantages to some, are really injurious to all. There is much now which is not satisfactory on the Congo. In those territories which we acknowledge to belong to Portugal, complaints are made of high duties, of a differential treatment of the foreign and Portuguese flags, of arbitrary fines, and of other vexations, all of which are great impediments to commercial intercourse. On the Congo itself the Portuguese declare that the Slave Trade is entirely at an end; and there can be no doubt that it is greatly diminished, partly owing to the ceasing of the Transatlantic demand for slaves,

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  partly to our efforts, and partly to a change of policy on the part of the Portuguese Government. But this is not in the least the case as regards East Africa, where we struggle at great disadvantage when trying to suppress the Slave Trade, in consequence of the want of a proper understanding with the Portuguese Government. But there are territories on the Congo to which the Portuguese lay a claim, in the most solemn manner in which it is possible for a nation to put it forward, by diplomatic declarations and by legislative enactments, which, however, have been as constantly repudiated and resisted by us as a matter of right. Successive Secretaries for Foreign Affairs have stated that the fear of encouraging the Slave Trade, and the danger of interference with our commerce, were the political reasons which induced them to lay further stress on the matter of right. The present state of these territories is unsatisfactory as regards the present and the future. It is true that there are many respectable firms who manage to work fairly and harmoniously with the Natives. But it cannot be denied that there is no acknowledged jurisdiction; that in places anarchy prevails; that there are many cases of practical slavery, of cruelty, and then of retaliatory outrages, without any opportunity for redress. It became thus a matter of some urgency to consider whether, without abandoning our position as to the matter of right, the political objections to which I have alluded could in any way be met. An important interchange of views took place in 1881 between our Minister, Mr. (now Sir) Robert Morier, and M. de Serpa, who initiated it. In last October, 1882, M. de Serpa renewed this conversation. The chief object of Her Majesty's Government in assenting to the renewal of the conversation was stated by me to be the abolition of slavery, and the civilization of Africa by the extension of legitimate commerce. The Portuguese Government declared, in still more emphatic terms, that their objects were the same. They gave proof of their being in earnest by expressing their assent to the perfectly free navigation, not only of the Congo, but of other African Rivers, which are arteries of trade; and agreed not only to establish in the territories which we have not recognized as belonging to Portugal, but in
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  all the African possessions of Portugal, the liberal commercial system which was established in 1877 in Mozambique. The general principles of the agreement do not offer any difficulty; but I am far from being sure of coming to an understanding on the conditions which in our view are indispensable. It may be convenient that I should state what appear to us to be essential points. I need not say, in the first place, that the agreement as to dealing with slavery must be complete. In the second place, it is necessary there should be complete security that undue burdens, which do not now exist, should not be placed in any part of the Portuguese possessions upon missionaries, shipowners, or traders. I said that it was supposed by some that we were giving away boundless territory which belonged to us; but, in reality, we are doing no such thing. What we propose is that, without receding from the position of legality as to the right which is claimed, we should agree, on the conditions which we have stated, together with some arrangements of a satisfactory character as to Whydah, to withdraw our objections for the future to Portuguese jurisdiction, within certain defined geographical limits. This engagement ought not to be merely of a bilateral character; and we will, therefore, give our full support to Portugal to obtain a similar assent from other Powers. I am far from being certain that these negotiations will be successful; but if a good Treaty is obtained—and a bad one would be worse than nothing—I believe we shall strengthen the general principle of freedom of navigation and commerce in the great rivers of the world, and that in Africa itself we shall greatly advance the interests of civilization and of commerce. It has been asked what security shall we have that the Portuguese will observe the conditions of any Treaty? This is an argument which, if valid, is fatal to all Treaties. It would be unbecoming in my position to admit that this result would be likely to happen; but, admitting it hypothetically, I would ask how should we have less moral and physical power to enforce the conditions of a Treaty to which Portugal has consented, than that by which we now resist the claim of Sovereignty which Portugal so strongly asserts? It would be wrong of me to go into great detail on matters

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  which are under negotiation; but I trust that the statement which I have made of the general character of the negotiations will be sufficient to enable this House to judge of the principles on which Her Majesty's Government are acting.

LAND LAW (IRELAND).

  NOMINATION OF SELECT COMMITTEE.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREmoved the re-appointment of the Select Committee on the Land Law (Ireland) Act as follows:—

  D. Norfolk.

  E. Stanhope.

  D. Somerset.

  E. Cairns.

  D. Marlborough.

  V. Hutchinson.

  D. Sutherland.

  L. Tyrone.

  M. Salisbury.

  L. Carysfort.

  M. Abercorn.

  L. Kenry.

  E. Pembroke and Montgomery.

  L. Penzance.

  L. Brabourne.

  LORD DENMANthought that the subject of inquiry was sufficiently exhausted and the continuance of the Committee superfluous.
  Motion agreed to.
  The Committee to appoint their own Chairman.

THE CHARITY COMMISSIONERS— SCHEME FOR ST. DUNSTAN'S-IN-THE-EAST— QUESTION.
THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)rose to call attention to a Question put by him to the Government when Parliament met in October as to the course to be pursued in regard to a Scheme of the Charity Commissioners in relation to a charity in St. Dunstan's-in-the-East, the time allowed for addressing Her Majesty to withhold her consent to the same having expired during the interval which occurred in the sitting of the House from the adjournment in August to the meeting in October. The answer he received to the Question was that the matter should be attended to; and he now wished to know what course the Government had taken, or intended to take?
LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRIVY SEAL)said, the position of the Scheme was certainly a very peculiar one. The Scheme had been laid on the Table of both Houses in the month of August. Then came the long adjournment, and the result was that the larger part of the statutory period during which the
1894
Scheme of the Charity Commissioners must lie on the Table was consumed by the adjournment. The noble Earl had put a Question to the Government on the subject, and the Government then, after carefully considering the matter, decided that, under the peculiar circumstances, the Scheme should not be submitted to Her Majesty in Council in the ordinary course, but should be kept back until Parliament met again, so that opportunity might be given to any Member of their Lordships' House who might think fit to take action. He himself much doubted that action would be taken in the matter, because the objections made to the Scheme were identical with the objections which had been disposed of by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. Without, however, going into the merits, the Scheme had not yet been submitted to the Queen in Council, and it would not be so submitted until after the Easter Recess, so that any action might be taken in respect to it in either House of Parliament.

SALE OF LIQUORS ON SUNDAY (IRELAND) BILL [H.L.]
A Bill to amend and render perpetual the sale of Liquors on Sunday (Ireland) Act, 1878—Was presented by The LORD PRIVY SEAL; read 1a (No. 17.)
House adjourned at half-past Five o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Eleven o'clock.