Lords Sitting of 21 June 1883

MINUTES.
Sat First in Parliament—The Viscount Exmouth, after the death of his uncle.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Lord Alcester' s Grant (95); Lord Wolseley's Grant * (96).
Committee—Stolen Goods * (78–105).
Report—Gas and Water Provisional Orders * (76); Water Provisional Orders * (77); Tramways Provisional Orders (No. 2) * (80).
Third Reading—Pier and Harbour Provisional Order (No. 2)* (82); Indian Marino* (88), and passed.

LORD ALCESTER'S GRANT BILL.
(The Earl of Northbrook.)
(No. 95.) SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: My Lords, I have to ask your Lordships to give a second reading to this Bill for the purpose of making a grant to Lord Alcester. It has seldom happened that the Services of the Army and Navy have been so closely associated as they were
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during the recent operations in Egypt. I therefore ask to be permitted, in moving the second reading of Lord Alcester's Grant Bill, to make such observations as will apply to an identical Bill in respect to Lord Wolseley, to which also I shall have to ask your Lordships to give a second reading. In October last Resolutions were passed in your Lordships' House, nemine dissentiente, thanking Admiral Sir Beauchamp Seymour and General Sir Garnet Wolseley for their distinguished skill and ability displayed in the operations in Egypt. The Queen was subsequently pleased to confer upon them the distinction of the Peerage, followed, in accordance with precedent, by a recommendation to both Houses of Parliament to make a provision in support of that high honour. Your Lordships, in April last, agreed upon a humble Address of Thanks and concurrence with Her Majesty's Most Gracious Message. The Bills for which I have to ask a second reading are for the purpose of carrying Her Majesty's gracious recommendation into effect. My Lords, I should have been pleased to dilate somewhat upon the skill shown by Lord Alcester in the attack on the forts of Alexandria, whereby his object was gained with hardly any damage to the city, the energy of his subsequent action on shore, the admirable arrangements made for the occupation of the Suez Canal, and the effective support given under his directions to the advance of the Army. I should have been glad to dwell upon the remarkable foresight of Lord Wolseley in planning the military operations, the decision and genius he displayed in carrying them out, especially in the attack on the Egyptian lines at Tel-el-Kebir, and the cordiality and consideration shown in all his relations with the Navy, which are highly appreciated by all ranks in that Service. But this has been said before, and better than I could hope to say it, by my noble Friend beside me (Earl Granville), the noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Salisbury), and His Royal Highness the Field Marshal Commanding-in- Chief. The noble Marquess then cordially accepted the position which Her Majesty's Government have desired to take with respect to these proceedings. I mean that, whatever differences of opinion there may be as to the policy of the Government, such differences should not

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be permitted to cast a shadow upon the recognition of the services of the officers whose duty it was to execute their instructions. While, however, it would be wearying your Lordships were I to dwell longer upon the particular services rendered by my noble and gallant Friends in Egypt, I may be allowed briefly to refer to their previous careers. It is a curious coincidence that they saw their first active service together. It is 30 years ago, in the Burmese War, that Lord Alcester, then Commander Seymour, serving upon General Godwin's Staff as a volunteer, led the storming party at the capture of the works at Pegu, while Ensign Wolseley led another storming party at Donabew, where he was severely wounded. Lord Wolseley next served in the trenches at Sebastopol, where he was twice wounded. He was then engaged with distinction in the Indian Mutiny, where he obtained the rank of Lieutenant Colonel, and afterwards in the China War of 1860. In 1870 he directed, with signal success, the Red River Expedition. In 1873 he successfully conducted the Ashantee War, for which he received the Thanks of both Houses of Parliament and promotion to Major General for distinguished service. In 1879 he commanded the troops in the operations which concluded the Zulu War. Lord Alcester has embraced every opportunity of service which presented itself. He took out to the Crimea one of our first two iron-dads, and in 1860 he commanded the Naval Brigade in New Zealand on shore for 13 months, when he was severely wounded. He commanded the Flying Squadron in 1872, the Channel Squadron in 1874, and the Mediterranean Squadron from 1880 till a few months ago, when he showed high diplomatic ability, emulating the distinction gained by Sir William Parker in the same important command. But however distinguished the recent services of my gallant Friends may be, and however meritorious their previous careers, I feel confident they will agree with me that the honours conferred upon them are not to be regarded solely in reference to themselves, but also as awarded to worthy Representatives of the two great Services to which they belong. I may be allowed also to express the satisfaction which is felt by the Navy, that the Queen has been pleased to confer the honour of a
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seat in this House upon a distinguished Naval Officer, no opportunity of a purely Naval Peerage having occurred since the time of Lord Exmouth. Both the noble and gallant Lords are, I venture to think, admirably qualified to assist our deliberations upon military and naval questions, and well deserve the welcome which your Lordships have already accorded to them. I need say but a few words upon the provisions contained in the two Bills which have come up to your Lordships from the other House. The Government originally adopted the latest precedent, and proposed to confer upon my noble and gallant Friends annuities of £2,000 for two lives; but so strong a feeling was shown in the other House of Parliament that the provision should take the form of a grant rather than that of an annuity, that Her Majesty's Government, desirous as every Government must be to meet in such matters the general sense of Parliament, changed the form of their proposal into grants of £25,000 to Lord Alcester and £30,000 to Lord Wolseley, which roughly but fairly represent the value of their respective annuities—a change which, I may observe, has not been disagreeable to either of the noble and gallant Lords who are principally concerned. I beg to move the second reading of the Bill.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, in seconding this Motion I have to express my hearty concurrence with the noble Earl opposite, and I do not think it necessary to enter into any of the matters with which he has dealt. In this House, at all events, it is not our duty to scrutinize narrowly the manner or form of any pecuniary measures which the Crown may think fit to recommend to Parliament in order to express its approbation of distinguished services. In the other House discussions were raised dealing with precedents and instituting comparisons; but all such subjects I put aside entirely. We assent—cordially assent—to this proposal, because we are glad to concur with the Crown in offering our recognition of the merits of these distinguished officers who have done so much to promote the interests of the country, and have shed so much lustre on its annals.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a." —(The Earl of Northbrook.)

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Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

LIGHTHOUSE ILLUMINANTS' COMMITTEE — PROFESSOR TYNDALL AND THE BOARD OF TRADE.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF DUNRAVENasked, Whether, owing to the nature of the constitution of the Committee appointed by the Board of Trade on lighthouse illuminants, Professor Tyndall has resigned his position as Scientific Adviser of the Board of Trade, and the Commissioners of Irish Lights had withdrawn from the inquiry; and, if so, whether it is the intention of the Board of Trade to re-constitute the Committee; also, whether there is any objection to lay before the House the minutes of proceedings of the Committee; and the correspondence between Professor Tyndall, the Board of Trade, the Commissioners of Northern Lighthouses, and the Commissioners of Irish Lights? The noble Earl said, that the question affected private rights and the public interests. The question which was involved was, what was the best illuminant to be used in our lighthouses round the Coast? It was a matter which deeply affected the lives and welfare of our sailors. It appeared that there was a difference of opinion as to whether gas or oil burners should be used. As far back as 1875, Professor Tyndall had reported in favour of the use of gas for this purpose. His Report showed that gas was, in the view of practical men, the better illuminant; and in Ireland there was a great wish that it might be used. The Commissioners of Irish Lights were anxious to adopt the recommendation of the Report as far as possible; but they were opposed both by the Trinity House and the Board of Trade, who refused to sanction the necessary expenditure. A protest against this decision was signed by several influential persons, among whom were the Lord Mayor of Dublin, Lord Monck, and Lord Meath; and the controversy, thus renewed, went on for some time, till at last the Board of Trade instituted a formal inquiry into the whole subject. After the first appointment of the Committee it was re-constituted on a different basis, to which Professor Tyndall objected, on the ground
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  that the oil interest preponderated over the gas interest; and the subsequent action of the Committee appeared to have justified Professor Tyndall's resignation, because the Committee had made experiments with stronger oil-burners than any in use while gas-burners of the highest power invented by Mr. Wigham had not been allowed to be exhibited. The Irish Board of Lights had no alternative, under the circumstances, than to retire from the Committee. The present position of affairs was that Professor Tyndall had severed his connection with the Board of Trade. The personal aspect of the question was of the least importance as far as the results were concerned; but the question was important as affecting the security of property and the lives of sailors at sea, and he trusted that the Government would be able to give a satisfactory explanation of the matter. He also trusted the Committee would be so altered as to enable Professor Tyndall to rejoin the Board.
  LORD SUDELEYsaid, that the subject which had been raised by the noble Earl was one in which, unfortunately, a great deal of personal feeling had been imported, and in regard to which a considerable amount of jealousy had arisen. In answer to the first Question of the noble Earl, he must at once say it was true that Professor Tyndall had resigned his post as Scientific Adviser of the Board of Trade, and the President had expressed his very great regret that this should have taken place. The noble Earl had quoted very largely from the published Correspondence, and psssibly had left the erroneous view upon their Lordships' minds that the Board of Trade and the Trinity House had acted in a very high-handed manner to the prejudice of Professor Tyndall. The noble Earl stated that the resignation was due to the constitution of the Committee charged with the proposed experiments; and that Professor Tyndall considered that Mr. Wigham, the inventor of the well-known gas burner, was not likely to have fair play, as the engineer to the Trinity House held a patent for an improved burner, and it was thought he looked coldly on the use of gas in lighthouses. Ho further said that Professor Tyndall brought a charge against the Board of Trade for general want of support of the gas system, which

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  he stated was in 1879 brought to the verge of destruction; also, that Professor Tyndall objected to the action of the Trinity House in seeking to invalidate some of Mr. Wigham's patent rights. He did not complain of the view put forward by the noble Earl; but he thought it must be quite clear to anyone who had perused the Correspondence that there was another side to the story; and he would endeavour to put briefly before their Lordships the views entertained by the Trinity House, the Commissioners of Northern Lights, and the Board of Trade, and the action they had taken in this matter. He would first clear the ground of that part of the charge which referred to past years. The noble Earl had quoted from Professor Tyndall's letter of the 28th of March, in which, while speaking strongly in favour of the gas system, and quoting the evidence of high authorities in its favour, he stated that—
  "In the face of this, the gas system in 1879 was brought to the verge of destruction;"
  also that the Board of Trade—
  "With unaccountable unwisdom, ratified all this, and signed what would have been the death warrant of the gas system, if active steps had not been taken to interpose."
  This complaint against the Board was in respect of the action in past years under previous Governments. The great authorities of the Trinity House, the Northern Lights, and the Board of Trade were of opinion that these charges were unfounded, and that no experiment on a sufficient scale had taken place to prove the superiority of the gas system. For his present purpose he thought it would be quite sufficient if he was able to show that from the year 1880 the charges made against the Board of Trade could not be substantiated. It would be well to state at once what position the Board of Trade held in regard to this matter. The three lighthouse authorities—the Corporation of the Trinity House, the Commissioners of Northern Lights, and the Commissioners of Irish Lights—had full power to deal in their respective localities on the question as to whether gas, oil, or electricity should be employed for illumination. The Board of Trade was only indirectly the controlling authority, as they were the Trustees of the Mercantile Marine Fund, and it devolved upon them to see that the
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  money was properly spent. As far as possible the Board of Trade refrained from interference with these local authorities; but it was clearly the duty of the Board to bring them together when any difference arose in connection with their work, in order to render their arrangements as uniform as possible. The question of the efficiency and comparative cost of the three illuminants—gas, oil, and latterly of electricity—had been for some time under consideration. The Commissioners of Irish Lights had taken a very strong stand in favour of gas. The other two great authorities, certainly of equal weight and experience, were not, however, of the same opinion; and it had, therefore, seemed most desirable to the Board of Trade, acting really as a go-between, that experiments should be made, after the present Government came into power, to determine which of the three illuminants should be adopted, and, by means of careful and exhaustive trials, to clear the whole matter up. The position of the Board of Trade to the Commissioners of Irish Lights was somewhat peculiar, and involved special responsibility from their position as Trustees to the Mercantile Marine Fund. The noble Earl had quoted a letter of Professor Tyndall of the 8th of March, in which he said that—
  "If the treatment of the gas invention is a fair sample of the general treatment of Ireland by England, it would be the duty of every Irishman to become a Home Ruler."
  To clear that point up let him at once say that he could not believe Professor Tyndall could have been aware of the financial position of the Commissioners of Irish Lights when he made this observation. If the Commissioners had had Home Rule in this matter they would be absolutely bankrupt. It appeared that, whereas in 1881 they spent £82,000, they received dues amounting to only £21,000; so that no less than £61,000 had to be paid over to them from the dues collected in England and Scotland to enable them to carry out the work of lighting the Irish Coast. He mentioned this fact merely to show how very responsible a position the Board of Trade held towards the Commissioners of Irish Lights as Trustees of the Mercantile Marine Fund. The President paid a visit to Ireland in 1881, and was shown the working of Mr. Wigham's apparatus on the spot. He was very

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  much struck with the importance of the invention; and although he found there was some little difference of opinion among the Commissioners themselves, he thought the matter of such consequence that he suggested a series of comparative experiments should be carried out as soon as possible under the observation of Professor Tyndall. As matters proceeded it was found that a trial on a small scale could not be satisfactorily carried out; and the Trinity House suggested, on the 28th of March, 1882, that the preliminary trials should be given up, and that the investigation should be thoroughly exhaustive and complete, and include a full inquiry into the merits of the electric light. Professor Tyndall, in September, 1882, had expressed himself very strongly respecting Mr. Wigham and Sir James Douglass being both inventors, and, therefore, that they ought to be put on the same footing. This the Corporation of Trinity House objected to, and stated to the Board of Trade in October, 1882, that—
  "The question of equal personal interests should be reduced to its true proportion. Mr. Wigham, the patentee of the composite gas burner, is a manufacturer, constructing and vending to the lighthouse authorities not only the burner itself, but the whole gas-making apparatus connected with it. He has incurred the expense of a patent, and will reap substantial profit at the hands of the shipowner in the event of success after those trials. Sir James Douglass is not a manufacturer nor a trader in oil. He has himself incurred the expense of a patent, without any contribution by the Corporation, and has granted the free use of it to all the Lighthouse Boards; so that he makes no profit whatever by success, and the only benefittee is the shipowner."
  It was well known that Sir James Douglass was the life and soul of the Trinity House. About this time the President of the Board of Trade had an interview with Professor Tyndall on the subject of the experiments; and in the course of conversation it appeared to him that as Professor Tyndall seemed to have a very strong opinion as to the superiority of gas over oil, and as to the special right of Mr. Wigham as regards patents, and some little disposition to impute motives and pecuniary interests to people, it would be better to have another gentleman appointed to assist in the investigation specially representing the Board of Trade, and thoroughly and entirely impartial. Now, in speaking of Professor Tyndall, it must be
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  remembered that he was one who stood very high indeed in the scientific world. He was a gentleman well known to many of their Lordships, and his high character, straightforwardness, and independence were well known; but it was no discredit to him to say that he had the character that, when once he had formed an opinion, it was almost impossible to get him to alter it. The President of the Board of Trade had felt he was bound, as a Trustee, to look upon the matter from a practical point of view. He had to remember that, however high a value he might place on Professor Tyndall's opinion, the Corporation of the Trinity House, with their great authorities, and the Commissioners of Northern Lights, with their eminent scientific advisers, were distinctly opposed to the view that gas was better than oil, and would not agree to any Committee they considered to be partial. When, therefore, he found on the part of Professor Tyndall an apparent leaning on one side, he thought it was impossible to leave the matter entirely under Professor Tyndall's supervision. Under these circumstances, Mr. Vernon Harcourt, who was Gas Referee to the Board of Trade, was appointed to act specially in their interest in the matter, and it was hoped that this would have been done without in any way slighting the feelings of Professor Tyndall. It was proposed that the engineers of the three Boards, with Professor Tyndall and Mr Vernon Harcourt, should form the proposed Committee of Inquiry, and that Mr. Wigham, as the inventor of the improved gas-burner, in deference to Professor Tyndall's wishes, should be put in the same position as Sir James Douglass, the patentee of a burner. At first it was arranged that these two gentlemen should not vote on the Committee. A letter received from the Chairman of the Committee, dated the 22nd of January, 1883, (No.59), showed the difficulty arising from Sir James Douglass's and Mr. Wigham's position not being properly defined; and it was thought better, on the whole, to let these two gentlemen, who might be considered to represent gas and oil respectively, become ordinary Members of the Committee. In the same letter was mentioned a suggestion from the Trinity House, that the Board of Trade should appoint some gentleman conversant with

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  the theoretical details of the electric light. In accordance with this, the Board of Trade selected Dr. Hopkinson —as being one of the ablest and best known electrical engineers—to represent that branch on the Committee. On February 3, Professor Tyndall asked to be relieved of the duty of serving on the proposed Committee. The Board of Trade wrote immediately, stating that the Committee would, in their opinion, be incomplete without his presence and assistance; and, on the 17th, Professor Tyndall suggested an alternative Committee, leaving out the names of Dr. Hopkinson and Mr. William Douglass. The Board of Trade replied, on the 20th of February, that they could not allow him to nominate the Committee. As far as Dr. Hopkinson was concerned, it appeared that Professor Tyndall, in his letter of the 28th of March, objected to him, because he was an intimate friend and associate of Sir James Douglass. The Board of Trade looked upon Dr. Hopkinson as a gentleman whose standing in his Profession was such as to place him above the suspicion of prejudice. Their Lordships would see that in the same way it would be easy to retort upon Professor Tyndall, in respect to his strong feelings in favour of Mr. Wigham's gas process and his patent rights, that he also was prejudiced. But the Board of Trade were emphatically of opinion that those insinuations and suggestions ought not to have been made. As regarded the point raised by Professor Tyndall, to the effect that Mr. Wigham and Sir James Douglass ought not to have the power of voting on the Committee, the Board of Trade pointed out in their letter to the Commissioners of Irish Lights—
  "As to the question whether one or more of the Members of the Committee should be deprived of voting, the Board do not think there is need of any instruction being given to the Committee on this point. If there should be a necessity for voting, the names of the Members voting will appear in the Report, and any pecuniary interest which any Member will have will be duly weighed. Besides, as the Board have told the Commissioners of Northern Lighthouses, the Committee and its Members cannot be expected to act as the practical advisers of the Government or the Lighthouse Board. Their functions will be confined to ascertaining by experiment certain facts on which at present there is some difference of opinion, and no exact means of determining results."
  The sole object of the present inquiry
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  was for the public good. The success of individual inventors, apart from the obvious duty of dealing justly by them, was a matter of minor importance. In answer to another Question of the noble Earl, be might state that the Commissioners of Irish Lights had intimated their intention of withdrawing from the inquiry; but the Board of Trade had discovered that this was only due to a misunderstanding as to the manner in which the Committee intended to carry out their business. They had since placed the explanation of the Committee with supplementary Correspondence before the Commissioners of Irish Lights, and had every reason to think that the Commissioners would at once reconsider their decision. If, however, they should feel it their duty to permanently withdraw, the Board of Trade would have to consider seriously whether it would be worth while to proceed with the experiments, or whether it would be better to let the whole matter drop, and for each authority to carry out their own trials. The Committee had only met on a few occasions, and it would be impossible for the Minutes of their proceedings to be published piecemeal. The general Correspondence on the subject, numbering no less than 112 letters, was in the possession of the House. In reference to the inquiry by the noble Earl as to the omission of a portion of Mr. Vernon Harcourt's letter of November, 1882 (No. 51), he would state that it was merely a copy of extracts from a confidential letter sent to the Trinity House. The whole letter had been shown to Professor Tyndall; but, in writing to the Trinity House, it was thought inexpedient to quote the whole of a private letter. He thought that after that review the House would see that, in arranging for this Committee, the Trinity House, the Commissioners of Northern Lights, and the Board of Trade, had been desirous that its representation should be such as to make a valuable, practical, and exhaustive inquiry into every branch of the subject, and to be enabled to give an opinion of the greatest public importance. It was much to be regretted that any personal feeling of jealousy should have arisen, but the Board of Trade hoped that the whole matter would now settle down, and the investigation be allowed to proceed.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, until Wednesday night, when he had the Correspondence to which the noble Earl (the Earl of Dunraven) had alluded placed in his hands, he was entirely ignorant of the subject; but as he enjoyed the friendship of Professor Tyndall, and knew him to be not only a man of great scientific attainments, but also a fair-minded man, he could not but think that some blunder had been made on the part of the Board of Trade. Having read the whole Correspondence which had been published, he was a little amused with the way in which it had been handled by the noble Earl, who read a number of extracts from Professor Tyndall's letters, but did not give their Lordships the smallest hint of what were the answers of the great Public Departments—the Scottish Commissioners, the English Commissioners —the Trinity House—and the Irish Commissioners. Having, as he had said, read the Correspondence, and being, at the same time, entirely satisfied of the perfect purity of his motives, he could not but come to the conclusion that Professor Tyndall had made a very great mistake in refusing his services to the Board of Trade. The real question was, what was the best illuminant for lighthouses in the Three Kingdoms?—a purely scientific question, to be determined by experiments which must be conducted under the very best scientific authorities that could be obtained. The Board of Trade consulted with the three great bodies connected with the Three Kingdoms. They requested these bodies to name their own Representatives on the Committee, and this was done. Professor Tyndall had persuaded himself of the great superiority of the gas illuminant which had been developed under the care of Mr. Wigham, the inventor of a gas illuminator, who was one of the Members appointed on the Committee. Professor Tyndall, therefore, objected to the constitution of the Committee, principally on the ground that it included Sir James Douglass, who was engineer to the Trinity House, and was personally interested in a patent for an oil illuminant. There were two ways in which such a body of men might be selected. One would be to choose only such as had no interest in any particular method—in fact, a body of judges. The other course, which was actually adopted,
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  was to select representatives of every interest. Thus, though Sir James Douglass had an interest in oil, Mr. Wigham, Professor Tyndall's friend, had a patent for gas illuminants, and was a gas manufacturer. Thus each of those gentlemen would correct the other. The Board of Trade, in deference to Professor Tyndall's opinion, were quite willing to remove the name of Mr. William Douglass from the Committee, as he was Sir James Douglass's brother. Therefore, he did not think any blame could attach to the Board of Trade in the matter; but he was quite certain that, under the circumstances, Professor Tyndall was mistaken in the view he had taken. It was the case of an Irish invention versus an English invention. He did not think either the Northern Commissioners in Scotland, or the Trinity House in England, could have the smallest prejudice against any particular invention. He felt perfectly certain that they would give equal justice to all the inventions brought before them. Since his noble Friend had sat down he had received a telegram, which showed that his noble Friend had made a mistake, and that the decision of the Committee he referred to only related to minor experiments. He believed that it was the opinion of the Trinity House authorities that oil could be made quite as efficient as gas for the less powerful lights, but that for the more powerful lights electricity must be employed. It was for this reason that they desired that Dr. Hopkinson, who was specially acquainted with the subject of electric lighting, should be placed upon the Committee.

  NAVY—WRECK OF H.M.S. "LIVELY" —THE "HEN AND CHICKENS "ROCK AND "NORTH SHOAL."
  MOTION FOR A PAPER.
  THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGHsaid, he rose to inquire of Her Majesty's Government, in reference to the loss of Her Majesty's Ship "Lively," Whether any representations have been made to the Board of Admiralty or other department with the view of having the rock known as the "Hen and Chickens" buoyed; and, if so, for what reason a precaution apparently so necessary for the safety of Her Majesty's Ships has not been taken? The subject was one of considerable public interest, because the

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  vessel in question was a very valuable one. It was certainly a most extraordinary thing that the vessel should have struck upon this shoal in broad daylight, and when she had an experienced officer on board; and, doubtless, if this shoal had been buoyed the accident would not have happened. It would not be proper, at the present moment, for him to say anything that might prejudice the case, which would certainly have to be inquired into, or to aggravate the position of a gallant officer who would, doubtless, have to justify the course he pursued before a court martial. In one respect he thought that the commanders in the Royal Navy were more sinned against than sinning, and that was in the matter of the charge of their ships being handed over to pilots. In the present instance, be understood that the Lively at the time she struck was in charge of a pilot. Nothing could conduce more to accidents of this character than to place British ships of war, when in British waters, in the hands of pilots, because such a course must inevitably weaken the sense of responsibility of the commanding officers. The Board of Admiralty had published a most admirable work, showing the dangers surrounding the British Coasts, and also most excellent charts; and officers in the Navy should be required to make themselves acquainted with those means for making them competent pilots. If all naval officers were obliged to be their own pilots in British waters, and to keep a careful record of the mode in which they took their vessels in and out of harbour, a very good school of navigation would be established, which would fit our officers to pilot their vessels with safety in all parts of the globe. His belief was that if a buoy had been placed on the Hen and Chickens Rock, a valuable ship might have been saved for the British Service. He also wished to inquire, Whether any similar representations have been at any time made with reference to a well-known danger called the "North Shoal," off the west coast of the Orkneys; and whether, in view of the recent catastrophe, the marking of that danger by means of a buoy will be seriously considered? and to move for any correspondence on the subjects. The shoal in question was thus described by the Admiralty—
  "The North Shoal is a bank of 20 and 25 fathoms, having on it a small and nearly per-
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  pendicular rock which rises to within nearly 7 feet of the surface of low water springs; the summit of the rock is not more than half the size of a boat, the lead falling off it into deeper water."
  This rock was nine miles distant from the nearest land, and was in the track of vessels coming from North America. There was a large number of men and vessels engaged in the cod fishing in the Northern Seas. Shoals of this character were a great danger to vessels engaged in the fishings on that part of the Coast; and if this matter were seriously considered by the Admiralty or the Board of Trade, and the dangerous spot marked either by a lightship or a buoy, it would be the means of saving many lives.
  Moved for—
  "Correspondence respecting the buoying of the rock known as the 'Hen and Chickens.' and of the 'North Shoal,' off the west coast of the Orkneys."— (The Duke of Marlborough.)
  THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANsaid, he wished to call attention to the fact that the captain of a steam fishing beat or tug named the Mary Anne had done everything he could to render assistance, and deserved the greatest possible thanks for his conduct. But shortly after the Lively struck, a steam herring boat, on its way to Stornoway, passed close by, being only two or three minutes off; and, though every possible signal of distress was held out, the captain of this ship did not stir one yard from his course to render assistance, or even come near to see if he could be of any use. No doubt, the captain in question had written to the Scotch papers to explain that he saw that a steam tug was already on the spot, and also that some hours afterwards he did return; but neither of those excuses ought, in his (the Marquess of Lothian's) opinion to be entertained. It was not unlikely, however, that if this captain did return he might claim compensation for the time passed; but he trusted no compensation would be allowed to him. He thought it desirable to bring under public notice the conduct of captains of ships not rendering assistance in case of distress.
  THE EARL OF NORTHBROOKsaid, that he joined with the noble Duke (the Duke of Marlborough) in deploring the loss of ono of Her Majesty's ships; and he agreed that no pains should be spared to ascertain the circumstances connected with the occurrence. Ho was, however,

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  in a position of considerable difficulty; because, when one of Her Majesty's ships was lost, a court martial to inquire into the circumstances of the loss was held, and one would be held in this case. The Report would come before the Board of Admiralty; and accordingly it was quite impossible for him to refer in any way in that House to the circumstances of the loss of the Lively, or to the responsibility of the officer in command of it. Their Lordships would, therefore, excuse him if he did not enter into any of these questions. He was obliged to the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Lothian) for the information he had communicated. If ho were to answer the first Question of the noble Duke strictly, he would say that no representation of any kind had been made to the Admiralty with regard to the Hen and Chickens Rock. In 1869, however, the officer surveying those parts of the Coast suggested that a beacon or buoy should be placed over the sunken rock, and the Commissioners of Northern Lights recommended that this should be done; but the Elder Brethren of the Trinity House, who had a consultative voice in these matters, were of opinion that a very good clearing mark was given in the Admiralty directions, and they did not see that the proposal was necessary. No further representations had been made since 1869. With respect to the Question whether similar representations had been at any time made with reference to the North Shoal, off the West Coast of the Orkneys, he had to say that no representation whatever had been made to the Admiralty with regard to it. The Hydrographer to the Navy who was the authority whom the Board of Admiralty consulted in these matters, reported to the Board that the shoal was 7 feet under water; and, in his opinion, no buoy would stand in such an exposed position; and the danger, moreover, was out of the general track of navigation. In 1876 the Commissioners of Supply for Orkney made a representation to the Board of Trade that there were 44 rocks and shoals around the Islands which were not marked by either buoys or beacons. The Memorial was referred to the Commissioners of Northern Lights, who advised that a few lights were required; but the North Shoal was not among those so recommended. There was no objection to the Correspondence
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  being produced. Their Lordships were probably aware that the Board of Admiralty were not responsible for the lighting of the Coasts. The Board of Trade was the authority dealing with such matters, acting under the advice of the Commissioners of Northern Lights and the Elder Brethren of the Trinity House.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsuggested that the danger from the rock on which the Lively stranded might be obviated by blowing up the rock with dynamite, and that its destruction would be a merciful purpose, to which a little dynamite could be applied.
  Motion agreed to.
  Correspondence ordered to be laid before the House.

  LAW AND JUSTICE (ENGLAND AND WALES)—ASSIZES AND QUARTER SESSIONS.—QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF POWIScalled attention to the inconvenience which arises from certain Assizes having been fixed by the judges for the days on which the quarter sessions are by statute required to be held; and asked whether it will be necessary to hold sessions for the trial of prisoners in the same week as that in which assize gaol delivery has taken place?
  LORD COLERIDGEsaid, he might explain that the inconveniences to which the noble Earl referred would only occur in three counties—namely, Montgomeryshire, Buckinghamshire, and Berkshire. The fact that certain Assizes had been fixed for Quarter Session day in those counties was due to pure inadvertence; and he need not say that the Judges would be the last to inflict any needless inconvenience on country gentlemen. In ordinary years, moreover, it would not have occurred. The learned Judges who were to attend the Assizes in the counties in question had expressed their willingness to try all the prisoners committed for trial to the Quarter Sessions, or, if it would be more convenient to the magistrates, to postpone the commission day for one day. The Judges would thus either perform the duties of the magistrates, or allow those gentlemen to do their own duties without interference. He would take care that for the future the Judges should be reminded, when the Circuits were selected, that the days

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  for the commencement of the Assizes must be so fixed as not to conflict with the Quarter Sessions. In answer to the second part of the noble Earl's Notice, he had to say that the days for the holding of Quarter Sessions were fixed by Act of Parliament. He feared, therefore, that the Court of Quarter Sessions for Montgomeryshire, to which his noble Friend specially referred, must meet as usual on the chance of there being some business, such as a presentment, to transact. The difficulty which the noble Earl wished to see obviated would only occur in the two or three counties whore the Judges began their Circuits.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (UNREFORMED) BILL—NQUIRY FEES.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD HENNIKER, in rising to ask Her Majesty's Government, Whether they have considered the question of the large fees to be paid to the Treasury by the boroughs mentioned in the First Schedule of the Municipal Corporations (Unreformed) Bill, with the view of relieving these corporations of a heavy charge? said, he hoped the Government would be able to give him a reply to a Question he asked of the noble Earl who had charge of the Municipal Corporations (Unreformed) Bill, when he presented a Petition, a few days ago, from the borough of Aldeburgh. Aldeburgh was one of those boroughs which were included in the First Schedule of the Bill, as boroughs which should be retained. It would be a great strain on their resources to make them pay a large sum for Treasury fees. This would not be so hard were the boroughs only now to be incorporated. As it was, they were only to be reformed; and all they had to spare in the way of funds would be required for placing the new machinery in working order. This borough, like the other boroughs in the same category, merely asked for an act of justice—that an Act of Parliament might be passed to place them under the Municipal Corporations Consolidation Act, 1882, without the necessity of applying for a new Charter. Perhaps the noble Lord would state whether Her Majesty's Government could deal specially with such cases?
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)said, that the
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  new Charters would be prepared by the Privy Council. He had been in communication with the Treasury on the subject; and it had been decided that the towns to which the Question of the noble Lord referred should be exempted from the expense of the fees which his noble Friend feared they would have to incur.

CONTAGIOUS DISEASES (ANIMALS) ACT —ORDERS OF THE PRIVY COUNCIL.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD HENNIKER, in rising to call the attention of the House to the Orders of the Privy Council under the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act; and to ask, Whether these Orders can be published from time to time in a consolidated form? said, he had taken it upon himself to place this Notice on the Paper, as he had had some little experience as Chairman of the Executive Committee under this Act in the county in which he lived for several years past; and he had had special means of knowing how the Act worked, as they had had more than ono severe outbreak of disease during the last few years. The other day the noble Duke (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon) called attention to the importation of disease. He did not intend to enter into that question; but he mentioned it, as he thought, while fresh regulations were desired, that they should not neglect to use the powers they already had with the greatest effect possible. Two or three years ago he noticed that it was not so difficult as it had been this last year to make all concerned understand what the law was; but there were now such a mass of Orders put forth that it was difficult for anyone who carefully followed the action of the Privy Council to keep pace with these constant changes; and, for those who were determined not to understand, it was very easy to make excuses and to puzzle others. The great difficulty they had had was to make dealers in cattle conform to the regulations; and in the last two outbreaks of foot-and-mouth disease they had kept the disease alive when the district would have been free long before it was so. These dealers, during the last outbreak, actually got up a correspondence in the newspapers, declared the regulations wore impossible to understand,

  1119
  and, of course, placed great difficulties in the way of the local authority. Of course, this was overcome; and, after a time, every regulation was in good working order. Hardly, however, was this the case, when down came a fresh Order, and undid all the good effect of what had been done. He would only quote two instances to show what ho meant. An Order was passed some time ago —still, he was glad to say, in force—which allowed local authorities to close their district against other authorities. This was a most useful Order while all markets were closed, and dealt effectually with the dealers. This last year they had put this Order in full force in Suffolk, and the county had been rapidly cleared of disease—so much so that, if these restrictions could have been kept in force about a fortnight longer than they were, it was the opinion of the most practical men in the district that the disease would have been stamped out. However, the markets were opened by the Privy Council, and it was of no further use to continue the restrictions of the local authority. The disease broke out afresh, of course, and although, happily, not to a large extent, was still in the district. It might be said that the Order in Council now in force gave local authorities power to deal with markets. So it did; but the Order was not in existence at the time he had mentioned; and he did not think it would be so effectual, where there were several local authorities in one county, as the action of the Privy Council. Be that as it might, these constant changes did not do good, and tended to puzzle all concerned, and to defeat the action of the local authorities. He would give another case. An Order was put forth a short time ago to allow local authorities to grant licences for markets in their districts where disease existed within their district. Hardly had this been placed in working order when it was cancelled by a fresh one, altering the terms of the power of the local authority. Probably the Privy Council were right in their last Orders; but why should such constant changes be made? It handicapped the local authorities, on whose action, in carrying out the Orders strictly, so much depended, and really gave an excuse to those who wished to evade the law. Of course, he was quite aware that it was desirable
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  that the Government should have powers, and so use them as to deal with special emergencies; but in order to support the local authorities throughout the country, and, in fact, to carry out the law properly, it was most important that the Orders should be changed as seldom as possible, and that some Code of Regulations should be published—say twice a year—of all the Orders in force, so that no one might have a shadow of a foundation for saying he could not understand the regulations in force.
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)said, he knew very few Members of that House better entitled from experience to give an opinion on this subject than the noble Lord. He quite agreed with the substance and the object of the remarks they had just heard. But he was not prepared to admit that the multiplicity of Orders which the noble Lord had described could have been avoided, under the circumstances of this country. It had been caused by the variety of the circumstances with which they had to deal, and partly by the increase of experience as time went on. But he was bound to say that he sympathized with the noble Lord in his struggles with the Orders as they now stood; and he was able to tell him that the Privy Council felt that the time had come when an effort ought to be made to simplify and consolidate them. Ho was glad to say that from the much more self-acting character of the Orders as they now steed, in consequence of some recent changes, the Privy Council hoped that the Orders in future would be more easily carried out. They were of opinion that the time had come when the process desired by the noble Lord should take place, and they were now at work upon a consolidation of the Orders. That was a work which had to be done with great care and accuracy, and it would take a little time; but it was going on as fast as possible. The Orders would be consolidated into two sets, one containing the regulations with regard to home animals, and the other the regulations relating to foreign animals. He hoped when those consolidated Orders appeared they would fully meet the views of the noble Lord.
  THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANwished to suggest whether it would not be possible at some of the ports that some-

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  thing in the nature of a quarantine should be established. He was perfectly certain that the future of the agricultural interest in this country depended very much upon the safeguards taken with respect to the foreign cattle which came here. It was greatly to be deprecated that foreign cattle should be allowed to enter wholesale. The subject was beset with so many difficulties that his suggestion might prove unworkable, but he gave it for what it was worth; and hoped the authorities would remember how greatly the prosperity of British agriculture depended on the exclusion of diseased cattle.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.