Lords Sitting of 31 July 1883

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Friendly, &c. Societies (Nominations) * (166); Railway Passenger Duty, &c. * (167); Parochial Charities (London) * (168).
Committee — Companies (Colonial Registers) * (150).
Third Reading—Consolidated Fund (No. 4) *, and passed.

EMIGRATION (IRELAND).

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD EMLYasked the Lord President, Whether any decision has been come to upon the emigration scheme to which he referred in April last? The noble Lord said, he was sure that many of their Lordships who took an interest in this matter must recollect the very able speech made in the month of April on the sufferings of the poor in the congested districts in the West of Ireland by the noble Earl who was not now present (the Earl of Dun-raven). It was not necessary for him to repeat the description which his noble Friend gave of the miserable and utterly hopeless sufferings of that population, who were continually on the verge of starvation, who had no means of help of themselves, and the produce of whose land was utterly insufficient to support them and their families. A very shrewd friend of his who lived in one of those districts described to him their condition in a very few words. He said—"In a good year, the people begin to starve in May; in a bad year, they begin to starve somewhere about February." His noble Friend the Lord President of the Council (Lord Carlingford), in replying to the speech to which he alluded, fully admitted the truth of all his statements, and said, speaking on the part of the Government, that the only way to remedy this state of things, most shocking to humanity and also dangerous—as his noble Friend the Lord Lieutenant, who was present, knew—to law and order, was by emigration. Now, the question of emigration had been so often debated in their Lordships' House that he should not trouble their Lordships by making any remarks about it, but would only just say that he confirmed what the Lord President said, that there was no other way possible to relieve that population except by emigration. With regard to the remedy suggested in the question of waste lands, he thought that was a remedy which had disappeared from the consideration of people of any intelligence, for the simple reason that they all knew that, under the present state of things, not only in Ireland, but also in the rest of the United Kingdom, the existing cultivation was not progressing, but retrogressing. Another school of persons had sprung up who substituted another
  1106
  plan, which was more absurd, on the question of waste lands. This was, that there was a great number of farms already occupied by farmers which were imperfectly and improperly cultivated, and the proper thing to do would be to take away portions of those farms and devote them to this surplus population. If such a thing were attempted, however, he was quite sure that the occupiers of those farms would show, in a very strenuous manner, their views of the rights of property by resisting forcibly any attempt to deprive them of any portion of their land. But even if they did not do so, just let their Lordships consider what difficulty and delay such a process as that would lead to. In the first place, those people would have to be compensated, and then they would have to get houses and farms for these poor people. Then, who would supply them with capital to cultivate the soil, and who would give them the skill to cultivate it? It seemed to him utterly absurd to entertain such a proposal, and it was utterly impossible that they could deal with these poor people in any way except by assisting them to emigrate. The statement of the Lord President certainly gave the greatest satisfaction to him and to other noble Lords who believed with him that Her Majesty's Government had received a proposal from certain persons in Canada to carry out on a largo scale a great system of colonization in that country. There was no secret now as to what that proposal was. It was a proposal made by a most powerful, wealthy man in Canada—Mr. Stephen—who really possessed enormous tracts of land—not hundreds of thousands, but millions of acres of most valuable land, and who offered Her Majesty's Government to transplant to that country from Ireland, without causing any expense beyond the actual outlay, 10,000 families upon the Government giving him a guarantee. He could speak from authority of the value of the ground in question, because one of his personal friends—Colonel Butler, who was one of the discoverers of the North-Western District — had assured him that the quality of the land was most remarkable and exceptionally good, and there was not the slightest doubt that with the access of the railways and cultivation the value of that land in a few years would have increased in a

  1107
  fabulous way. He did not know whether their Lordships were aware of a small Canadian Land Company which was established in London in the year 1826. What were their shares worth now? For every £1 paid they now paid £95. He wanted to learn what reason there was for the delay in coming to terms with Mr. Stephen? With the liberal action of the Canadian Government, in addition, it did seem to him the most short-sighted policy of the Government to higgle over the proposals made to them, and to run the risk of their being withdrawn. Such an event would be the greatest possible misfortune to this country. He thought it would be really criminal not to take advantage of this opportunity, and he earnestly hoped his noble Friend the Colonial Secretary would give an assurance that the Government was carrying out the scheme, and that there was a hope of its soon being accomplished. It was a matter of the most vital importance at the present time. There was a great deal of unassisted emigration going on amongst the young men and women, who were the bone and sinew of the country. This was a very great loss, and he did not wonder at complaints being made about it. He wished from his heart that, by finding employment for them at home, we should keep the well-to-do young men and young women who were flying from our shores; but for the population of the congested districts there was no alternative but emigration or extreme misery, and those who, from whatever motives, political or sentimental, tried to keep those wretched people at home were forbidding the naked to be clothed and the hungry to be fed. He begged to ask the Question which stood in his name on the Notice Paper.
  THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, I quite agree in spirit and in substance with the remarks that have just been made by my noble Friend. I think with him that emigration is the only real remedy for the distress which exists in what we may call the congested districts. All the other plans for the relief of that distress are in comparison very imperfect and temporary expedients. I may go further and say, on behalf of my Colleagues, as well as myself, that we have been and are anxious to promote emigration of the kind which has been described by all reasonable and
  1108
  practicable means. Perhaps I shall best answer the Question put to me by stating very briefly what has taken place in regard to this matter. My noble Friend is quite accurate in his reference to Mr. Stephen, who, as many of your Lordships know, is a gentleman having very large interests and very considerable influence in the North-Western country. He is Chairman of one of the leading railways, and he is a person upon whom we can perfectly rely, and with whom we should have no hesitation in dealing. His proposal was that the British Government should advance £1,000,000 sterling for 10 years without interest; and his calculation is that by means of that loan, to be repaid at the end of 10 years, 10,000 families, or, speaking in round numbers, 50,000 persons, could be taken out and settled, each family on 160 acres of land, and be provided with houses and other necessaries for their first start. According to the plan of Mr. Stephen, the money was to be advanced by the British Government directly to the various Companies who, he believed, would undertake to carry out the scheme. We have assented in principle to that proposal; but we have assented to it with one important modification. We propose that the loan should be made, not direct to the Companies, but to the Canadian Government, which would then be free to employ any agency which they might think desirable, and which would hold itself responsible for the repayment of the advance at the expiration of the proposed term. We do not think this an unreasonable proposal, because it is quite clear that, although it would be a considerable gain to Ireland to obtain the removal of this surplus population, there would be, at least, an equal gain to the Colony in the peopling of a large area which is at present unsettled and useless. However, the Canadian Government have not at present seen the matter in that light, and they have so far refused to incur responsibility for the repayment. Some negotiations have taken place; but they do not seem disposed to give way. They say that they believe the Companies are able to give satisfactory security, but that they themselves, as a Government, are not disposed to interfere in the matter. That is the cause of the delay which has occurred. There has been

  1109
  no higgling with Mr. Stephen. The only question is whether the Canadian Government will agree to carry out the arrangement in a manner which we consider fair. The negotiations are not at an end, and I must say that we have by no means abandoned the scheme or given up the hope of carrying it to a successful conclusion.

  PREVENTION OF CRIME (IRELAND) ACT, 1882.
  1. (Proclamations.) Proclamation for the employment of additional constabulary in the parish of O'Brennan, County Kerry;
  2. (Warrants.) Three Warrants imposing charges in respect of additional constabulary upon certain districts; together with the necessary statement of particulars in each case;
  3. (Forfeited Newspapers.) Order for the forfeiture of copies of "The Irish World." newspaper of the 21st of July 1882:
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.
  House adjourned at Five o'clock, to Thursday next, a quarter past Ten o'clock.