Lords Sitting of 26 July 1883

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Consolidated Fund (No. 4)*.
Second Reading — Companies (Colonial Registers) * (150); Petroleum (154) discharged; Prison Service (Ireland) * (145).
Committee—Companies Acts Amendment * (148).
Committee—Report—Sea Fisheries (Ireland) (146).

SOUTH AFRICA—ZULULAND—REPORTED DEATH OF CETEWAYO.

  QUESTION.
  LORD BRABOURNEasked the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether he has any information respecting Cetewayo; whether there is any truth in the report that he has been killed; and, generally, whether there is any further news respecting the condition of affairs of Zululand?
  THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, about an hour before the meeting of this House, I received a telegram on the subject from Sir Henry Bulwer. Sir Henry telegraphs that he has received a letter from Mr. Osborn, our Commissioner, on the Native Reserve in Zululand, in which Mr. Osborn states that, in his opinion, it is certain that Cetewayo has been killed during the attack on Ulundi; but no details were, as yet, forthcoming, and Mr. Osborn himself had not received any definite information on the subject.

LONDON COMMISSIONERS OF SEWERS (VENTILATION OF RAILWAYS) BILL AND METROPOLITAN BOARD OF WORKS (DISTRICT RAILWAY) BILL.

  MOTION FOR INSTRUCTION TO THE COMMITTEE.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS, in moving—
  "That in view of the fact that many millions of the working classes of London are compelled habitually to travel on the Metropolitan District Railway, and that their health and convenience is greatly dependent upon the improved means of ventilation recently provided by the railway company under powers granted by Parliament after full inquiry before Committees of both Houses, it be an instruction to the Committee to whom the said Bills are referred to allow the attendance before them and take the evidence of the representatives of the London Trades Council, and such other associated bodies as the Committee may desire, in order that the case of the working men may be fully heard,"
  said, that the Committee would do well to consider two points—first, whether the compensation to be paid to the Railway Company under this Bill would be sufficient; and, secondly, who was to pay it? With regard to the first point, it appeared to him that the mere doing away with the ventilators and making the ground good was hardly sufficient; for, unquestionably, the Railway Company
  504
  ought to be compensated for the value of the concession which, after being given them by Parliament, had been taken from them, as well as for the work they had carried out. Then, as to the second point, who was to pay the compensation? he would ask how it happened that the First Commissioner of Works, the President of the Board of Trade, and the Chairman of the Metropolitan Board of Works, who were supposed to be custodians of the Metropolis in matters of æsthetics, had allowed the Bill to be passed, and these ventilators to be constructed? The answer was that, under the present system of management, there was no joint action on the part of these Bodies; and that only showed how necessary it was that some change should be made in the conduct of these matters by the Metropolitan Board and Her Majesty's Office of Works. It appeared, then, to him that the persons who ought, in the first instance, to be liable to the Railway Company for their expenditure on these ventilators should be the First Commissioner of Her Majesty's Works and the Chairman of the Metropolitan Board. But, in any case, he thought the ratepayers ought not to be called upon to pay for what was, in fact, the result of an Act of Parliament; and it appeared to him that this compensation, be it large or small, should come out of the Imperial Exchequer, and net out of local funds. He trusted their Lordships would allow the Instruction to pass, and that the Working Men's Trades Council and other Associated Bodies should, on petitioning to that effect, be heard before the Committee. The increase of traffic on these subterranean railways had increased enormously, and the working men, who were obliged to travel backwards and forwards by them, complained that the atmosphere was not only most noxious and noissome, but hurtful to health. They were most anxious, therefore, that there should be a satisfactory system of ventilation. The Committee of the House of Commons had recommended that some of the holes should be left open; but what the working men feared was that the Metropolitan Board of Works might ask the Committee of their Lordships' House to go much further than the Committee of the other House had done, and to close more of these ventilators.

  505
  Moved, That in view of the fact that many millions of the working classes of London are compelled habitually to travel on the Metropolitan District Railway, and that their health and convenience is greatly dependent upon the improved means of ventilation recently provided by the railway company under powers granted by Parliament after full inquiry before Committees of both Houses, it be an instruction to the Committee to whom the said Bills are referred to allow the attendance before them and take the evidence of the representatives of the London Trades Council, and such other associated bodies as the Committee may desire, in order that the case of the working men may be fully heard, provided a petition from such council or other associated bodies be presented to the House."—(The Earl of Wemyss.)
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, no doubt there was a great deal of feeling both for and against the question of these ventilators; but, for himself, he had no wish to say a single word as regarded its merits. Under those circumstances, it seemed to him just and desirable that all parties should be heard before the Committee who had to decide it. If these parties had a locus standi before the Committee, without any Instruction from their Lordships, he should not be inclined to vote for this Instruction; but, as he understood such was not the case, he certainly had no objection to the proposal of the noble Earl.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that, after what had fallen from the noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville), the case seemed too clear for argument. They ought certainly to allow everyone who was directly or indirectly interested to be heard, and, therefore, he should support the Motion.
  THE DUKE OF BUCKINGHAM, as Chairman of the Committee referred to, said, he wished to point out to the House that, although this was a question upon which there had been a good deal of feeling shown, yet that when the Bill came before the Committee of their Lordships' House, there was no discussion and no opposition, and it became his duty to report it as an unopposed Bill to the House. He quite concurred, however, in the proposal of the noble Earl (the Earl of Wemyss), and could sue no objection to it.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)Said, that the question was a peculiar one. He had never known of a case like it. These parties could not properly appear before the Committee, because they had no locus
  506
  standi. As it was an exceptional case, he would not offer any opposition to the Motion, but leave the matter in their Lordships' hands.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, he wished to know the position of the House with regard to the Bills? He thought the Motion, even if agreed to, would be nugatory, for the Committee had made their Report, and all opposition to the Bills had been withdrawn; there was, therefore, nothing on which the Motion could operate.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, it would seem that the Committee had ceased to have cognizance of the Bill. It was difficult for the House to give an Instruction to a Committee, if, at the present moment, the Bill was not before anybody.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he thought that the best thing to do would be to adjourn the debate; and he would, therefore, move that the debate be adjourned. It was quite clear, whether the noble Earl at the Table (the Earl of Redesdale) accepted the Motion or not, that the debate had adjourned itself.
  Further debate on the said Motion adjourned till To-morrow.

PETROLEUM BILL.—(No. 154.)
(The Earl Granville.)
PETROLEUM BILL.—(No. 154.)
  SECOND READING. ORDER DISCHARGED.
  On the Motion of the Earl GRANVILLE, Order of the Day for the Second Reading read, and discharged.

  PRESENTATION OF PETITION.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he had received a Petition, signed on behalf of the Petroleum Association of London, a large and very influential body, against the Bill, the Order for the Second Reading of which had just been read and discharged. He trusted no day would be fixed for the resumption of this Bill. That Bill had been introduced at a very late period of the Session, and it appeared to be a measure which affected the trade very seriously. The Petitioners stated that—
  "As the enactments in this Bill will virtually annihilate the Petroleum trade, we trust they will not be passed into law without considerable modification."
  The Bill stood on the same footing as

  507
  the Merchant Shipping (Fishing Boats) Bill, which was read a second time the other night. These Bills might or might not be bad. He did not know. They might or might not be necessary; but it could not be necessary for the Government to introduce them in the last week of July, when it was impossible to inquire into their merits, and the effects they might have on important industries, and when there was every danger of hasty and ill-considered legislation.
  Petition presented; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

EUPHRATES VALLEY RAILWAY.

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  LORD LAMINGTON, in rising to ask Her Majesty's Government, Whether previous to the ratification of the provisional agreement for the formation of the second Suez Canal they will not consider the expedience of advancing £8,000,000 for the formation of the Euphrates Valley line of railway, which would be entirely under the control of the English Government, whereas by the terms of the provisional agreement the second Suez Canal would, like the present one, remain under French direction; and to move for Papers, said, the Agreement had been abandoned; but the fact remained that it had new been recognized that it was a matter of very great importance that there should be a second Suez Canal; but, if there were to be a dozen Canals, it was admitted, as a matter of equal necessity and importance, that there would still be required an alternative line of communication between the Mediterranean Sea and the Indian Ocean. He was not going to discuss the merits of the second Canal through the Isthmus of Suez, beyond calling attention to the fact that, some three or four years ago, Mr. Gladstone wrote an article in The Nineteenth Century, in which he showed that such a line was wanted, using the following words:—
  "Indeed, Russia or no Russia, it seems to be very doubtful whether confident reliance can be placed upon the Canal for our military communications with India under the varied and shifting contingencies of war. Even if it were possible to hold the line, approaching 100 miles, as a continuous fortification, it does not at once appear how the Canal could be secured against the furtive scuttling of ships. If it cannot,
  508
  what becomes of all the costly care for the military custody of the banks? Upon the whole, it would not surprise me to learn that the authorities of our War Department, aware of all the difficulties of the case, have already discounted them by paying their account with a return to the old route of the Cape for times of war."
  At about the same time an article was published in the leading journal, The Times, in which these expressions occurred:—
  "The loss to England by exclusion from the Canal route would be political as well as commercial. To any other nation, the fact that the Canal was obstructed, or that the control of it had fallen into hostile hands, could only mean that certain mercantile profits were placed in. jeopardy, though even from this point of view it should not be forgotten that our stake exceeds in magnitude the stake of any rival Power 20-fold or 30-fold, But in our case the necessity of keeping open the great highway between the mother country and her dependencies in Asia and the Southern Seas, is added to commercial interest and our financial interest in the Canal.''
  Whether there were two or four Canals through the Isthmus they would all be open to the same objection. Our commerce was particularly interested in this, considering that it was 20-fold that of any other country using the Canal. Politically, we were not less interested in it, as it was all important that we should have an open communication with our Indian Empire. He held that the required alternative line we needed would be found in the Euphrates Valley Line, which was no bubble or visionary scheme. Committee after Committee, of one of which He himself had had the honour of being a Member, had reported on the Line, and had approved of it. The last Committee, which sat in 1872, had examined 35 most competent witnesses connected with India and with trade, and of these, 30 were in favour of the railway, while only five were against it. That Committee said—
  "Speaking generally, your Committee are of opinion that the two routes by the Red Sea and by the Persian Gulf might be maintained and used simultaneously; that at certain seasons and for certain purposes the advantage would lie with the one, and, at other seasons, and for other purposes, it would lie with the other; that it may fairly be expected that in process of time traffic, enough for the support of both would develop itself, but that this result must not be expected too soon; that the political and commercial advantages of establishing a second route would at any time be considerable, and might, under possible circumstances, be exceedingly great; and that it would be worth the

  509
  while of the English Government to make an effort to secure them, considering the moderate pecuniary risk which they would incur."
  The objection made to the scheme by the Government last year, was that it would involve too great expenditure. lie trusted that that argument would not be advanced again now; for, if the Government were admittedly in a position to advance £8,000,000 for the purpose of increasing our means of communication with India and the East by a new Suez Canal, he thought they had much better advance it for the Euphrates Line. The advocates of this scheme, however, did not ask Government to contribute anything towards the undertaking. They were ready to find the money themselves, and only asked that a certain amount of protection should be given to them by Her Majesty's Government. Another reason why the question should now be seriously taken up, was that the Turkish Government had now made concessions to a Company with a view to the establishment of the projected Line. That Government had already granted a concession for a Line from Antioch to Aleppo, which was the first part of the scheme, and he saw no difficulty in having it extended to the top of the Persian Gulf. Lord Palmerston had always advocated this scheme in preference to a Canal, and he knew it had also been countenanced by the late Earl of Beaconsfield. Among other advantages of the Line, he might mention the following:—

  "1. It would connect the Mediterranean with the head of the Persian Gulf, between which and Kurrachee and Bombay regular communication is now maintained by a line of powerful steamers, subsidized by the Indian Government.

  "2. Making Kurrachee the European port of India in place of Bombay, it would save about 1,000 miles in the distance between England and India, and by the substitution of railway for boat transit would reduce the time occupied in the journey by one half—that is, to 10 days instead of 20 days.

  "3. It would render it possible to maintain India with a smaller European garrison than is now necessary, and would thus reduce our military expenditure.

  "4. It would save the Government large sums in sudden emergencies by the facilities it would afford—and that at all seasons of the year—for the transport of troops and stores.

  "5. It would enable troops from England to be landed at Kurrachee in about 14 days, and in two or three days more at Lahore, Peshawur, or Delhi.

  "6. It would subject an enemy advancing towards the north-western frontier of India to
  510
  easy attack in the flank and rear, and would render the invasion of India all but impossible.

  "7. It would make the resources of England so promptly available in the East that any hostile movement directed against us, whether from within or without our Indian frontier, might thus be effectually checked before it could assume formidable proportions.

  "8. It would give our extensive military establishments in India a direct influence in support of our power and prestige in Europe.

  "9. It would give England the first strategical position in the world."

  He contended, in short, that the advantages to be derived from the Euphrates Valley Line would be greater than any which would have resulted if the recent Agreement with M. de Lesseps had been carried out; and he thought it would be wise on the part of the Government, oven if they were not inclined to advance any money, at all events to give what facilities they could by obtaining the necessary concessions and the like for the construction of a Railway, as to which it should be remembered there was this difference between it and the Suez Canal—that whereas the former would be entirely under the control of the English Government, the latter, by the terms of the Provisional Agreement lately abandoned by the Government, would have remained under French direction. In conclusion, he would ask the Question of which he had given Notice, and move for Papers.
  Moved, "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for Papers respecting the formation of the Euphrates Valley line of railway."—(The Lord Lamington.)
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, the noble Lord opposite (Lord Lamington) is perfectly justified in saying that the question of communication with India viâ the Euphrates Valley, is one that has engaged attention in this country for many years. The subject both of water and railway communication between the Mediterranean Sea and the East, has been presented to the public in different forms. The noble Lord is also quite right when he says that the last Committee by whom the matter was considered reported in favour of the mode of communication to which the noble Lord has drawn attention. But they did not recommend any particular scheme, nor that any guarantee should be given by the British Government in connection with the subject. The last

  511
  proposal was put forward by that man of great capital and energy, the late Mr. Cazalet, who worked on the proposal to the last hour of his existence; but neither he, nor his living representatives, have ever made any application to the Government for pecuniary assistance as suggested by the noble Lord. I do not intend to refer to the merits or demerits of an Agreement which has now been dropped; but it must be obvious to your Lordships that there is a great difference between advancing public money in support of an enterprize in which you already possess one-half the property, and which is in a state of great prosperity, and advancing it in support of a perfectly embryo scheme as to which there is no certainty of success. I am not aware that there are any Papers that can be produced on the subject, or I should be happy to do SO.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I hardly think that the scheme advocated by my noble Friend (Lord Lamington) is in such a position as to make it desirable to press it on Her Majesty's Government at the present time. There are many difficulties connected with it which have often been recited in this House; and though, perhaps, not so formidable as they were some time ago, yet they appear to me too serious to allow us to entertain any hope that the subject can at present be taken in hand. But I think the popularity of the scheme, and the great attention given to it, are only some of the many signs which should make Her Majesty's Government consider that the subject of connecting the Indian Ocean and the Mediterranean is one of the most important questions of the day. All such projects will, of course, depend on the consent of the territorial Sovereign through whose Dominions the lines of communication must pass, whether they are by land or water, and the consent of the Sovereign will largely depend upon the diplomatic influences brought to bear upon him. It is, therefore, a matter in respect of which Her Majesty's Government, though they are not, in the first instance, territorially responsible, will be held largely responsible by the public, if they do not adopt, at an early period, a definite policy on the question —a policy to which they are prepared to adhere, and one which will respond to
  512
  the feelings entertained by the public of this country. I take it that there is a strong feeling existing in this country upon the question of communication between the Indian and Mediterranean Seas; and, considering the vast proportions of British commerce compared with the entire commerce that desires to pass through that route, it is felt that such communication ought not to be in the hands or under the control of administrators who are not British. That is a strong and dominant feeling in this country, and on that account I do not think Her Majesty's Government can afford to put the question off, or to delay coming to a judgment upon it. I have no wish, at present, to press this particular matter of the Euphrates Valley scheme upon the Government. I do not feel that it is opportune to do so; but I do rise for the purpose of saying that I hope we are not to conceive that this subject, as far as the increase of traffic accommodation goes, is to be considered as entirely closed, but that, before the Session is finished, we shall have some intimation from Her Majesty's Government of a definite policy which they are prepared to follow in respect of it.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

MANCHESTER SHIP CANAL BILL—THE SELECT COMMITTEE.

  NOTICE OF MOTION.
  THE EARL OF CORKgave Notice that, to-morrow (Friday), he would move that the following Peers should be appointed as the Committee to consider the Manchester Ship Canal Bill:—The Duke of Bedford, the Earl of Devon, the Earl of Aberdeen, the Earl of Camperdown, and Lord Carrington.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)said, he was sorry he could not agree to the appointment of the Committee. He did not consider it a fair or a proper Committee to consider such a Bill. He knew how it would decide the question. On a late occasion he had pointed out that it would not be possible to obtain such a Committee, at that period of the Session, and in the present state of the House, as a Bill of so important a character ought to go before. He should, therefore, feel it to be his duty to oppose the appointment of the Committee.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees (the Earl of Redesdale) had, no doubt, a strong feeling on the subject but the ground of the noble Earl's opposition he confessed he could not understand. As a matter of Order, for which the noble Earl was so anxious, the objection should be made when the Committee was moved for, and not now. In addition to the irregularity of his objections, the noble Earl's observations had thrown a reflection upon five of the most deservedly respected Members of their Lordships' House, and was scarcely in accordance with that regularity and order which the noble Earl generally felt it his duty to promote. He (Earl Granville) protested, in the strongest way, not only against what the noble Earl had now said, but against his statement the other day, that those who voted in favour of taking the Committee on the Bill this Session were committed to the merits of the question. As his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack pointed out, their Lordships had not committed themselves in any respect in that way, although the noble Earl (the Earl of Redesdale) did go very much into the merits of the question. For his own part, he (Earl Granville) could say that he had not made up his mind in the slightest degree whether it was desirable that there should be a Ship Canal to Manchester or not.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)said, that if he had taken an unusual course in giving Notice of his intention to oppose the appointment of a Committee, the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Cork) had also taken an unusual course in what he had done.
  THE EARL OF CORKsaid, he was sorry the noble Earl (the Chairman of Committees) should think he had done anything that was not perfectly in Order. After the vote the House came to the other night, he felt it his duty to obtain a Committee to inquire into this very important matter. He consulted the Chairman of Committees and his noble Friend opposite, and asked them to obtain assistance from the other side of the House. That assistance, with one exception, was obtained; and the rest he succeeded in doing himself. He now gave Notice of the appointment of the
  514
  Committee in order that the House might not be taken by surprise.
  House adjourned at half past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.