Lords Sitting of 19 July 1883

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BIILS—First Reading—Companies Acts Amendment * (148); Metropolitan Board of Works (Money) * (149); Companies (Colonial Registers) * (150); Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 2) * (151); Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 3) * (152); Summary Jurisdiction (Repeal, &c.) * (153); Petroleum * (154).
Second Reading—Poor Relief (Ireland) (140); Merchandise Marks (Channel Islands and the Isle of Man) (143).
Committee—Report—Factories and Workshops Amendment (113); Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday (Cornwall) (142).
Third Reading—Turnpike Acts Continuance * (132), and passed.

FACTORIES AND WORKSHOPS AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 113.)
(The Earl Granville.)
FACTORIES AND WORKSHOPS AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 113.)

  COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
  Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into Committee."—(The Earl Granville.)
  THE EARL OF WEMYSSsaid, that as the second reading of this Bill had been taken at an hour too late to permit of discussion, he hoped their Lordships would allow him, before they went into Committee, to call attention to the character of the measure. The two points to which he wished to direct the notice of their Lordships were—first, the persons to whom the Bill applied; and, secondly, the provisions of the Bill itself. This Bill went beyond the principle hitherto laid down in Acts of this nature. The one great principle of the Factory Acts, with which his noble Friend near him (the Earl of Shaftesbury) had so much to do, was that they gave protection to the weak—that was to say, to women, children, and young persons—and that they did not touch adult male labour in any form. The provisions of this Bill would apply not to women and children only—for they were excluded from the Bill—but to full-grown men and women. This was a new departure in legislation. Instead of being an advance in the right direction it was a retrograde step, for it was opposed to every economic principle, and went back to the time when the State interfered in every relation of life. The provisions of the Bill were practically all contained in the Schedule to the certificate, and were of a very minute character, dealing especially with persons employed at white lead works. Mr. Redgrave, the senior Inspector of Factories, had himself, in his first Report of April, 1882, expressed an opinion adverse to legislation on the subject. The conditions for obtaining a certificate were that the persons employed should have a means of frequently washing their hands and feet with a sufficient supply of hot and cold water, a supply
  1866
  of brushes, boots, gloves, and respirators, and that there should be accessible to all persons employed in the factory a sufficient supply of acidulated drink. He objected to legislation on all these minute points; they might as well introduce a provision requiring that every day or every second every one of the workmen should take a dose of Epsom salts. Was the noble Earl in charge of the Bill sure that these minute conditions were the best that could be laid down? Let them take the provision as to acidulated drink. There was no provision as to what the acidulated drink was to be. It was not said that the drink should not consist of a noxious acid. If the State interfered in the matter at all, it must go further, and say what kind of an acid was to be used. He had accordingly given Notice of his intention to move in Committee that this drink should, under no circumstances, contain sulphuric, hydrochloric, or other mineral acids, but should consist exclusively of a decoction of pure lime or lemon juice, called and known in the trade as lemon squash. If they were going to punish masters who did not provide these appliances for their workmen, there must also be a penalty for the workpeople who neglected to use them, and he had given Notice of an Amendment that every such omission should be punished by a fine not exceeding 20 s. He was confident that it would be much better if these things were left to the free and independent action of the employers and the employed. He should always be ready to support measures likely to render the lives of the working classes less hard and more healthy. But he believed that the working classes did not need grandmotherly legislation, as they were able, by combining and uniting, to impose their own conditions on their employers. Legislators were too apt to accept the statements of trades unionists, who pretended to speak on behalf of working men generally. He had in his hand a letter from a representative working man, Mr. Bryson, a Northumbrian collier, who, speaking of the proposal made by Mr. Burt and the trades unionists to amend the Employers' Liability Act, said that he objected to the suggested alteration, on the ground of its enervating character, and because it would destroy the self-reliance of the people; and that view

  1867
  was proved to be the view generally entertained by the working classes in the mining districts of Northumberland. He held that the same objection applied to the present Bill; it was calculated to destroy national liberty and self-reliance. The Bill laid down special provisions for white lead manufactories; but were those manufactories the only unhealthy ones in the country? Were not saw grinding and dry metal grinding of all kinds also injurious? If once they should determine to legislate in detail for all cases of that kind, the time of Parliament would be wholly taken up with legislation which might almost be called ridiculous. The Bill proposed to prohibit all bakehouses that were not half above ground. But it did not necessarily follow, because the whole of a building was not above ground, that it was unhealthy. Most of their Lordships' kitchens were below the level of the ground, but they were not on that account unfit to live in. If the Bill were not altered in Committee he should oppose it on the third reading.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that he did not object to hear the noble Earl speaking in defence of liberty and political economy; but he could not help thinking that, in his opposition to the Bill, the noble Earl misapplied those great principles. His noble Friend said that the Factory Acts made the strongest distinction between adult and juvenile labour. He admitted that fact; but he did not see how the present Bill would, in the slightest degree, affect adult labour. In what part of the Bill were any restrictions imposed upon labour of that kind? All that was proposed to be done was to impose certain sanitary conditions, to apply, not only to juvenile workmen, but to adults also, and that was exactly what the Factory and Mining Acts did. Therefore, the great distinction between those Acts and the Bill fell to the ground. The noble Lord wished to leave the matter to employers and employed, because he said they would regulate it in the best possible way. He doubted that. He saw it stated the other day that while the regulations proposed in this Bill were adopted by the best employers, with respect to others the local sanitary officers complained that persons were turned into paupers by this lead-poisoning, and were made paralytic in mind and body, and frequent
  1868
  deaths occurred. He could not conceive that their Lordships would be of opinion that this was an interference with adult labour which ought not to be imposed on employers, or that in an occupation of such a deleterious character regulations should not be made merely for the security of life and health. The rules which the employers were to adopt were to be approved by the Home Office, and anybody disobeying those contained in the 7th clause, 3rd subsection, would be subject to a penalty. There was no question that affected the public health so much as the state of bakeries—it affected not only the working bakers themselves, but also all the produce which they supplied for public use. His noble Friend had stated that his own kitchen was underground, and said he presumed that his (Earl Granville's) kitchen was underground also. It happened that that argument ad hominem did not particularly touch him; and if his noble Friend would favour him with a call at No. 18, Carlton House Terrace, he would be happy to show him that his kitchen was above ground. With regard to the Amendment of which his noble Friend had given Notice, he ventured to think that it was unnecessary. His noble Friend would require that the drink should be made merely of certain acidulated ingredients. But the drinks proper in such cases were made of other materials, and an Amendment which would prevent such drinks being given was exactly in the direction of that over-legislation to which the noble Earl himself objected.
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOKsaid, that the main objection which his noble Friend (the Earl of Wemyss) entertained was as to the Schedule. It was a very extraordinary thing to call on the House of Lords to legislate in that minute way. By the 3rd clause the Secretary of State might, by an Order under his hand, modify any of the regulations, so that their Lordships were asked to give absolute power to the Secretary of State tomorrow to modify that which they might have enacted. With respect to smoke, their Lordships did not lay down the rules by which the nuisance was to be abated, but merely said that the best means were to be adopted. But that their Lordships should lay down those minute rules was a thing which they were not qualified to do.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, he rose to make some observations on the very interesting and animated speech of his noble Friend on the Cross Benches (the Earl of Wemyss). In the course of that speech his noble Friend referred to the Association of which he was the founder, and almost the head, and which had been started for the purpose of what was called the defence of liberty and property. To the list of the members of that Association he felt, last year, strong temptation to add his name, for he was one of those who thought that there was serious danger of over-minute legislation. He was tempted, therefore, to break a rule he had laid down never to join any political Association whatever, for this reason—that they almost always involved one idea, and that the members were under the constant temptation to ride that idea to death. On that account he had declined to join the Association; and, after the speech which the noble Earl had delivered to-night, he congratulated himself on having so declined. He must say the noble Earl, by the Amendment he intended to propose, was riding his idea to death. The legitimate province of legislation in a country such as ours was a subject to which he had often given attention, to see whether it would be possible to lay down any abstract principle as to what were matters upon which it was wise and proper to legislate. But the truth was, that human affairs were too complicated for the drawing up of any such formula. They must be guided by the circumstances of each particular case; but if there was one matter upon which it was competent and desirable for Parliament to enter upon legislation, it was the life and health of the population. It was a great mistake to liken this Bill to the Factory Acts. What were called Factory Acts were those which regulated and limited the hours of labour; and, with regard to the limitation of hours, Parliament had very wisely confined itself to the case of women and children. But with regard to the health of the country, Parliament had placed upon itself no such limitation. This was a Bill directed to save the life and health of working men, not to limit the hours of labour. Experience had taught us that, in the fierce competition of our social system, the working classes were either unable or unwilling to distinguish between
  1870
  those kinds of labour which were healthy and those which were injurious to health. They would engage, without hesitation, in forms of labour which would bring on them the most fatal and loathsome forms of disease. Competition was so keen that it overcame the desire of life and the fear of death. Let their Lordships look at the legislation for protecting the health of our soldiers and sailors. Let them look at the legislation promoted by Mr. Plimsoll for the purpose of saving life at sea. Why, only a few days ago, he saw in the papers a case which came before the Admiralty Court, and the Judge had said, in summing-up, that that was the third case in a few months in which it had been clearly proved that the total loss of a steamer, with every soul on board, resulted simply from overloading. No legislation could be objected to on the ground that it was for the sake of preserving health and life. He hoped that some of their Lordships had looked at the evidence upon which this Bill was founded. The manufacture of white lead was one of the most dangerous in which working men could be employed. It was most painful to read of the loathsome diseases consequent on working in those factories. With regard to one or two factories in the neighbourhood of St. Leonard's, Shoreditch, the medical officer of the infirmary in that quarter spoke of the great number of persons treated in the institution for periods varying from three or four weeks to six months, some of whom would probably remain paupers for life. The form of disease arising from this occupation was extremely painful, and often led to paralysis, especially paralysis of the hand. In another manufactory as many as 48 patients had to be sent to the infirmary in one year; and, of course, the expense of their treatment was thrown on the ratepayers. It being impossible for anyone not to see that this was a case for legislation, the next question was whether the proposed legislation was unreasonable. In his opinion there was nothing unreasonable in it. It stood on all fours not only with the Acts for saving life at sea, but with the Acts for regulating labour in mines. The principle of the Bill simply was that the manufacturers of white lead should afford to the working men and women an opportunity of changing their clothes, and

  1871
  of washing their persons, to get rid of the white lead. The principal point to which the noble Earl pointed his fun and chaff was the provision that acidulated drink should be supplied; but the reason for this provision was that a dilute preparation of sulphuric acid had been found very valuable for counteracting the poisonous effects of inhaling and swallowing the fumes of white lead. It appeared to him that Parliament had as much right to prescribe this precaution as to enforce the practice of vaccination. He hoped, therefore, that the House would go into Committee on the Bill, and would, at least, give itself the opportunity of making any Amendments that might be necessary.
  EARL FORTESCUEsaid, he trusted that no one would think him indifferent to the necessity of sanitary legislation if he pointed out that this was sanitary legislation of an undesirable kind. It was one thing to insist on proper structural arrangements which the workmen themselves could not compel employers to make, and quite another thing to enact such details for men as the use of a particular drink. Nor could this Bill be justly compared with the laws as to vaccination; for while those laws were intended to prevent a national disaster in the shape of an epidemic, this Bill sought only to preserve the health of very few individuals. Minute legislation as to details was objectionable, partly because of its bad moral effect on the workmen, and partly because it tended to obstruct improvements and to stereotype certain processes and remedies, which the march of science and mechanical improvement might leave very far behind. Nearly 40 years ago, being a firm believer in political economy, he had divided the House on those parts of the Factory Bill which interfered with the labour of adult women, on the ground that if once such an interference were allowed it would be impossible to know where to stop. Experience had since fully verified his fears. In the present day the trades unions showed how well the workmen were able to take care of themselves, and how little they needed grandmotherly legislation.
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYsaid, he held that this was purely a sanitary question. The principle of our factory legislation was to protect health and to
  1872
  defend the weak, and that was the only principle contained in the Bill. It was true enough that workmen could, as a rule, protect themselves and assert their own rights; but the persons mentioned in the Bill were, so to speak, feeble folk, many of them women, who could not combine, and were so few in number that if they struck work to-morrow their places would immediately be filled by others. In all our legislation, even in the factory legislation, Parliament had great regard to considerations affecting life and limb. It had not only limited the hours of labour for women and children, but had also, in the interests of life and limb, and in spite of many opponents, among whom Mr. John Bright had been prominent, undertaken the regulation of many details, such as the sheathing of machinery and the like. The surgeon of the Leeds Hospital stated at that time that they had 600 grave cases a-year of factory accidents to men and women. It was the existence of such facts that made it necessary for the Legislature to protect adults. He had known nothing to which employers of labour offered so much opposition, stating that it was an infringement of their liberty. Parliament had also interfered with the truck system, because wages were paid in horrible substitutes for food, a sample of which in the form of bread, of which three-fourths was clay, was analyzed at his (the Earl of Shaftesbury's) request by Professor Faraday, who desired that a part of it should be preserved in the Royal Institution; and it was, he believed, still there. Parliament had prohibited the employment of women in mines and collieries; and it had subjected to inspection and rules, with the most beneficial consequences, common lodging-houses occupied nightly by 30,000 or 40,000 men and women, who were provided with cubic air space and accomodation which they would not otherwise enjoy. The best part of the Bill was that referring to bakeries, because their insanitary condition was detrimental to the bread which many thousands of people were compelled to buy. If their Lordships would visit some of the horrible dens in which bread was made they would realize how much the health of the people was affected. White lead poisoning carried off numbers in early life, deprived families

  1873
  of parental support, and threw the children on the parish. The whole question was whether the sanitary condition of the people was not a matter of vital importance. As to destroying individuality by legislation, was it not destroyed a great deal more at the present time by conditions against which the employed could not protect themselves? Where men could protect themselves they must be left to do so; but where it was impossible they could do so it was the duty of Parliament to interfere, because the health and industry and independence of the people were at stake.
  LORD BRAMWELLsaid, that as an humble member of the League of which the noble Earl (the Earl of Wemyss) was at once the head and soul, he had great hopes that the noble Duke (the Duke of Argyll) would join them, because they were not in any sense a political Society. The objection of the noble Duke to joining the League appeared to him to be this—that it was a League with an idea; would he wish to join a League without an idea?
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, his objection to the League was not that it was a League with an idea, but that it was a League with an idea that was ridden to death.
  LORD BRAMWELLobserved, that in that case he would invite the noble Duke to join the League in order that he might prevent a bad use being made of a good idea. Another observation he had to make was, that this singular argument was continually pressed—that because you made one exception to a rule, you might make any number of others. That was saying that rules existed for no other purpose than to have exceptions to them. He questioned very much whether the principles of the League applied to the proposed legislation; for he could not help thinking that in the same way that people should not be allowed to conduct themselves in a way to make themselves a nuisance to others, so the public had a right to say they should not ruin their health, and eventually become a burden to the ratepayers. He would only add that he had not understood the objection of the noble Earl (the Earl of Wemyss) to the Bill to be so much as to its principle as to the minuteness of its details.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, that the Factory and Workshops Act of
  1874
  1878 had been so construed in Scotland, that for the purpose of the employment of half-timers the middle of the day was 1 o'clock. It had been found in many cases that this had led to great inconvenience both to employers and employed, and prevented half-timers from attending afternoon school. He, therefore, proposed to introduce at the proper time an Amendment to meet this point, and he understood that the Home Office did not object to this being done.
  Motion agreed to.
  House in Committee accordingly.
  Clauses 1 to 6 agreed to.
  Clause 7 (Special rules for every white lead factory).
  THE EARL OF WEMYSSgave Notice that on the third reading he should move that adult males be exempted from the operation of the 3rd section of the clause.
  Clause agreed to.
  Remaining Clauses agreed to, without amendment.
  On Question, That the Report of the Amendments be now received?
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES)said, in reference to the Schedules, that they enabled the Home Secretary in writing under his hand to revoke and alter the rules laid down, which, in fact, enabled him to set aside the provisions of an Act of Parliament. This was a point which should be considered by the Government.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORpointed out that the Act of 1875 gave the same power of revocation and alteration, and no difficulties had been experienced.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he considered that the precedent of the Act of 1875 was not in point, as this Bill affected such a large variety of factories and workshops.
  Resolved in the affirmative.
  Bill reported, without amendment; and to be read 3a on Monday next.

SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS ON SUNDAY (CORNWALL) BILL.—(No. 142.)
(The Earl of Mount-Edgcumbe.)
SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS ON SUNDAY (CORNWALL) BILL.—(No. 142.)

  COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
  Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into Committee upon the said Bill."—(The Earl of Mount-Edgcumbe.)
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOKsaid, he would not oppose the Motion; but he looked with great suspicion on this measure and all similar legislation. The wisdom of allowing one part of the United Kingdom to have a system of law peculiar to it was very questionable. Under this Bill, that which would not be an offence in Devonshire would be an offence in Cornwall; and a Cornwall man, by crossing over the border of his own county, would be able to do that which was there prohibited. The Government had rejected a system intended for the prevention of disease in certain towns; yet every place in which the Contagious Diseases Acts had been enforced was still in favour of their continuance. If the Government were going to support the communistic legislation—the system of legislating for small communities—of which this Bill was an example, would they give to the towns to which the Contagious Diseases Acts applied the same power of interference with the principle of individual liberty which they proposed to give to counties by measures such as the present?
  LORD ABERDAREobserved, that a great number of important legislative experiments had been made in particular boroughs. There were boroughs in which certain acts were punished as offences, though they could be committed with impunity in neighbouring towns. Was it not also the fact that when local Acts were passed the districts to which they applied were placed under a special law? He strongly approved the experiment which the Bill proposed to allow in the county of Cornwall.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSSsaid, he must protest against the Bill for the same reasons as those urged by the noble Viscount (Viscount Cranbrook). He objected to all piecemeal legislation; and, feeling so strongly on the question, he begged to give Notice that he should move the rejection of the Bill on the third reading.
  Motion agreed to; House in Committee accordingly; Bill reported, without amendment; and to be read 3a on Friday the 27 th instant.

POOR BELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
(The Lord President.)
POOR BELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.

  (NO. 140.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL),in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, the Bill was for the temporary relief of Unions in certain parts of Ireland which were weighed down with poor rates, and were unable to relieve the destitute poor without some further assistance than they had already obtained. The Bill proposed to relieve them by way of grants and loans, and also to indemnify them as to sums of money which they had already borrowed without legal powers. The sum mentioned in the Bill as the limit was £50,000; but it was not thought that it would be necessary to take anything like that sum. He trusted their Lordships would give the Bill a second reading.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord President.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

MERCHANDISE MARKS (CHANNEL ISLANDS AND ISLE OF MAN) BILL.
(The Lord Belper.)
MERCHANDISE MARKS (CHANNEL ISLANDS AND ISLE OF MAN) BILL.

  (NO. 143.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD BELPER, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that its object was to extend to the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man the Merchandise Marks Act of 1862, which was intended to prevent the fraudulent marking of merchandise and forged trade-marks. In the places to which the Bill would apply there was at present no law affecting trade-marks and no law requiring their registration. The result was that cases of fraud were of frequent occurrence, and it was hoped that the Bill would put a stop to them. The large manufacturers interested in the question of trade-marks were very anxious that the Bill should pass through both Houses this year. He begged to move that it be now read a second time.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Lord Belper.)
  LORD SUDELEYsaid, that he should make no objection on the part of the Government to the second reading, provided the noble Lord would postpone the Committee on the Bill until the Government should have an opportunity of communicating with the Islands, which would probably be within nine or ten days.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Friday the 27 th instant.

LIGHTHOUSES, &c.—COMMISSIONERS OF NORTHERN LIGHTS—THE HEN AND CHICKENS ROCK.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLL, in rising to call attention to correspondence respecting the buoying of the "Hen and Chickens" rock on the coast of Lewis, said, this matter was certainly not connected with politics, nor with any of those great social questions so often discussed in their Lordships' House; but it was, at the same time, a matter of considerable public importance with reference to the administration of lights and lighthouses. In the discussion which took place about a fortnight or three weeks ago on the mode in which our lighthouses were administered, their Lordships had heard that there was a separate Board for each of the Three Kingdoms—that for Ireland there was a Board which sat in Dublin; for Scotland a Board which sat in Edinburgh; and for the lighthouses of England and the Channel Islands there was the ancient and venerable Corporation of Trinity House. It had so happened that in very early life he became personally acquainted with the operations of the Commissioners of Northern Lights. Three of their principal stations were on his own property, and he was present at the laying of the foundation stone of one of their most magnificent edifices—the great oceanic lighthouse erected by the late Mr. Stephenson, a man whose high character and genius cast a lustre on the Profession to which he belonged. He (the Duke of Argyll) happened to be a Member of the Government of Lord Aberdeen, under which
  1878
  the Merchant Shipping Act was passed. That Act was introduced by his right hon. Friend the late Sir James Graham, then at the head of the Admiralty. One of the clauses of that Bill proposed to subject the operations of the Commissioners of Northern Lights in Scotland and the Irish Board to the judgment and discretion of the Trinity House. As those local bodies had great local knowledge, and had conducted their business to the satisfaction of the shipping interest, he showed something of the Scotch lion, and rather remonstrated with his right hon. Friend; but he was not supported at the time. Sir James Graham, as well as himself, was a Scotchman, and so was Lord Aberdeen, then the Head of the Government. They did not agree with him; besides, the mutterings of the Eastern Question were being heard, and the subject in which he felt interested was treated as a purely local matter. Well, from that time to this he really thought no more of the subject, because nothing had come before him to direct his attention to the working of the system. But, the other day, Her Majesty's ship Lively, which was not only commanded by a most distinguished and careful officer, but was under the care of a local pilot, ran full upon a rock in broad daylight in such a manner that she was lost, and a court martial, he was sorry to say, felt obliged to dismiss the distinguished officer from the ship. It occurred to him to inquire whether the rock was buoyed or beaconed, and he found that it was not. If their Lordships would look at the beautiful Admiralty chart, it would be seen that the whole eastern seaboard of Lewis was what sailors called a remarkably clean shore. A 10-fathom line ran close to the coast, and there was a 20-fathom line very near, and often touched it. There was a promontory at right angles to the coast, which had to be turned by ships seeking refuge at the harbour of Stornoway. Just as one came in sight of the harbour there was a most dangerous rock. The water was nine fathoms deep inside of it. It was a considerable distance from the shore, and outside the water was much deeper. At ordinary high tide that rock was entirely concealed. It was one of the most dangerous rocks which existed, and there was a large amount of shipping in the neighbourhood. It turned

  1879
  out to be a fact disclosed in the Correspondence laid on the Table of the House that so long ago as 1869 the Commissioners of Northern Lights had forwarded a distinct recommendation to Trinity House, under the Act of Sir James Graham, that this dangerous rock should be marked with a beacon. This recommendation was vetoed by the Trinity House on the ground that the sailing directions of the Admiralty were sufficient protection. In the case of a ship belonging to the Navy, that might be sufficient; but the number of the Queen's ships which went there was nothing as compared with the number of ships of the Mercantile Marine and the coasting vessels passing down the Mineh. The objection of the Trinity House was what he might call a red-tape objection. The Scottish Board was composed, first of all, of the eminent engineers, Messrs. Stevenson, and the Sheriffs of all the maritime counties in Scotland, and of the Provosts of certain towns connected with the merchant shipping. He must say that it was a very strange thing for Trinity House to reject a recommendation of this kind, and it was not a good indication of the working of the system which had put the Scottish Board under a Board sitting in London. Of course, there was an appeal from Trinity House to the Board of Trade. He did not know whether the Northern Lights Commissioners appealed to the Board of Trade to have their recommendation carried into effect. Apparently, the matter had been allowed to drop, because of the decision of the Trinity House. He had the greatest respect for the Trinity House; but their Board ought not, in his opinion, to overrule so competent a body as the Scotch Commissioners of Lights. The West Coast of Scotland was still very imperfectly buoyed, and a dangerous rock, not unlike the "Hen and Chickens," lay just at the entrance to the best harbour in the Isle of Mull, where, by the way, Her Majesty's Squadron was ordered to anchor a short time ago. Another very important harbour on the South-West Coast was not only not buoyed, but was rendered still more dangerous by the fact that two beacons that formerly existed had been allowed to go to ruin. In bringing forward this matter, he blamed no Member of the Government; but he repeated that it was a very serious thing
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  that the recommendations of the Scotch Commissioners should be subject to the veto of the Board of Trade or the Trinity House.
  LORD SUDELEY: As regards the particular case of the marking of the "Hen and Chickens" rock, I have to point out, as stated by the noble Duke, that, under the Merchant Shipping Acts passed in 1854, the Commissioners of Northern Lighthouses had the right to appeal to the Board of Trade against the decision of the Trinity House, but they did not do so. And no representations on the subject, either from them or from any other quarter, have been received since 1869. As regards the relative claims of the two Boards to the confidence of mariners, it will be remembered that all the working Elder Brethren of the Trinity House are seamen, and that all the Commissioners of Northern Lighthouses are ex officio members, being composed of the Law Officers, Sheriffs of the seaboard counties, and the Provosts of certain large towns in Scotland. I do not mean in any way to throw any discredit upon the Northern Lights Commissioners; but I only wish to point out, as to the relative merits of the two Boards, that undoubtedly Trinity House are the most practical body. But a curious thing has happened within the last few days. As recently as Tuesday of this week the Board of Trade received a Memorial from the Convention of the Royal and Parliamentary Burghs of Scotland, signed by the Lord Provost of Edinburgh—himself a Lighthouse Commissioner—complaining strongly of the esc officio constitution of the Board, and stating that the prevalent feeling in Scotland was in favour of a re-organization of the Scottish Lighthouse Board, and praying Her Majesty's Government, on the earliest opportunity, to take measures so to recast the constitution of the Commissioners of Northern Lighthouses as to insure among its members persons having a personal and practical fitness for its duties. This only shows that, at any rate, in Scotland the opinion is different from what the noble Duke has expressed.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, he thought his noble Friend had entirely misunderstood the spirit of the Memorial. Whatever dissatisfaction might exist as to the composition of the Northern Lights Commission, the feeling unquestionably

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  was that the Scotch authority should not be overruled by the Trinity House or the Board of Trade.
  In reply to Lord ELLENBOROUGH,
  THE EARL OF NORTHBROOKsaid, that the pilot on board the Lively was was one of the best and most experienced pilots in the district.
  THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCHsaid, that, after all, no reason had been given to show why this rock had not been buoyed long ago. It was quite a small rock, being certainly not as broad as the floor of the House, and was surrounded by deep water. The sailing directions of the Admiralty were all very well in fine weather; but in thick weather it was often difficult to verify the buoys, and no soundings revealed the nearness of the danger. Now that one of Her Majesty's ships had been lost, he trusted that something would be done.
  LORD WAVENEYsaid, he considered it time that this dangerous reef should be distinguished from the surrounding sea, and he would recommend the erection of a lighthouse similar to one he had lately seen at Belfast.

PROMULGATION OF THE STATUTES.
Resolved, That it is expedient that the recommendations contained in the Report of the Committee appointed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department to consider and revise the List of 1801 for the Promulgation of the Statutes, and the Revised List contained in the said Report, should he adopted; and that the Controller of Her Majesty's Stationery Office should he authorised and directed to cause the printing and delivery of copies of the Public General Statutes and the Public Local and Personal Acts according to the mode of distribution contained in the said Report and Revised List; and the Secretary of State, with the sanction of the Treasury, may vary the distribution authorised by the said Revised List from time to time.—(The Lord Sudeley.)
House adjourned at Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.