Lords Sitting of 3 July 1883

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Railways (Continuous Brakes)* (135).
Second Reading—Lunatic Poor (Ireland) (85); Registry of Deeds (Ireland) (97).
Committee—Pawnbrokers (79–136).
Committee—Report—Drainage (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 2) * (124); Public Health (Dairies, &c.) (92).
Report—Tramways Provisional Order (No. 4)* (104); Metropolis Improvement Provisional Order* (118); Metropolis Improvement Provisional Order (No. 2)* (119); Metropolis Improvement Provisional Order (No. 3)* (120); Metropolis Improvement Provisional Order (No. 4)* (121); Supreme Court of Judicature (Funds, &c.) * (130).
Third Reading—Inclosure Provisional Order (Hildersham) * (115); Land Drainage Provisional Order (No. 2) * (116); Public Health (Scotland) Provisional Order (Fraserburgh Waterworks) * (63); New Forest Highways * (101); Forest of Dean (Highways) * (98), and passed.

PUBLIC HEALTH—OUTBREAK OF CHOLERA IN EGYPT—SANITARY PRECAUTIONS.—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF WEMYSS: I wish to ask the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs a Question, of which I have given him private Notice. Your Lordships are, no doubt, aware that, in consequence of the existence of cholera in Egypt, the French Government are taking precautionary measures against its introduction into France. I want to ask, Whether any similar measures are being taken by Her Majesty's Government?
EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, my noble Friend has asked me a Question upon a very important subject. No doubt, the question of the public health is one to which every Government ought always to pay the most earnest and immediate attention. Your Lordships are aware that there has been a sudden outbreak of cholera in certain parts of Egypt, chiefly at Damietta, the climate of which is, at this time of the year, of a peculiarly unhealthy character. There is not, and never has been, the slightest evidence whatever of the cholera having been brought by ships from India; and with regard to any measures taken by the Government, while we have made inquiries into the subject, we have not

159
thought it necessary to suggest any change whatever in the regulations for the protection of Egypt from the cholera, and we have no reason to believe that any change has been made in those regulations. The accounts we have received to-day in some of the newspapers is that the deaths from cholera on the 2nd of July were as follows:—Damietta, 130; Mansourah, 12; Damanhour, 4; and at Alexandria one suspicious death, which the doctor who made the examination would probably say had resulted from cholera. We are told that the Egyptian Government are, with great energy, taking steps to isolate the infected districts in which the cholera occurs. On hearing of the outbreak, my noble Friend the Secretary of State for War immediately telegraphed to the English military authorities in Egypt, requesting them to take most stringent precautions with regard to the health of the British troops, and particularly calling their attention to the regulations adopted in India with reference to cholera. I am happy to say that we have reason to believe those instructions from my noble Friend have already been anticipated by the highest English military authorities in Egypt before they reached that country. With regard to our Colonial ports, quarantine has been established for 10 days at Cyprus, and other precautions taken. At Malta, quarantine for 21 days, with other precautions, has been established; while at Gibraltar it has been established for 21 days. With regard to what has been done at home upon the subject of cholera, the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Wemyss), in common with your Lordships, must be aware that the responsibility of dealing with cholera was 12 years ago transferred from the Privy Council to the Local Government Board. In 1873, Mr. Stansfeld issued an Order, which had been passed in Council, carrying out the three principles of medical inspection, disinfection, and isolation of those seized with illness. That Order remains in full force at this moment; but it has been thought proper, in case attention should not be given to it, to re-issue it immediately with some alterations of a substantial character. It is not for me to say anything of an official character as to what danger there is to Europe from this sudden outbreak; but it may be satisfactory to your Lordships to hear
160
the opinion of one of the most eminent medical authorities of the day—Sir William Gull—upon the subject. It is contained in the following letter, written to me to-day, and which I will read to the House:—
"Dear Lord Granville,—I have watched, with some interest, the character of the reported outbreak of cholera in Egypt. Up to this time I have not thought there was much ground of alarm, either for Egypt, or for the spread of an epidemic of the disease in Europe. When epidemics of cholera have been extensive and severe, they have generally been preceded in the foregoing winter and spring by scattered cases, and there has been a history of outbreaks in some parts of the East. On this occasion it has not been so. The reported outbreak has been local and sudden, and I believe that at present we may expect it will subside and not become epidemic.
"I am, yours very truly,
"WILLIAM W. GULL."

LUNATIC POOR (IRELAND) BILL.
(The Lord President.)
LUNATIC POOR (IRELAND) BILL.

  (NO. 85.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Heading read.
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL), in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that it had been framed by the Irish Government with a view to dealing with a very serious evil in Ireland, and of relieving a very miserable class of persons—namely, those pauper lunatics, who were not at present confined in any asylum or workhouse, but were living as they best could with their friends, or were wandering at large about the country. The wretched condition of these persons had attracted the attention of the Irish Government, and they, being desirous of testing the information they had received on the subject, appointed a medical officer to make a test inquiry in two Poor Law Unions in Ireland—one in Dublin, and the other in the country. He (Lord Carlingford) had seen the Report of the Inspector, and the description he gave of the miserable persons whom he personally saw and examined was very painful. In the Report, he said he found lunatics in bed with no covering, some perfectly naked and lying on straw, and others filthy and perfectly neglected, and some bearing the appearance of suffering from want of food. There were many instances of mental Buffering, combined with physical neg-

  161
  lect, the sufferers frequently being children—their condition being most deplorable. That was the state of things to which the Bill desired to apply a remedy. That was the main object of the Bill, and it was proposed to attain it in this way. First, the Bill provided for the regular inspection of all the lunatic poor in Ireland who were not in any asylum or workhouse; in all cases of neglect and ill-treatment, a power of committal to the workhouse of the Union in which the lunatics resided was given. In the second place, the Bill transferred the control and supervision of all lunatics to the Local Government Board, in accordance with the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Lunacy appointed by the late Government. Under the Bill it would be the duty of the Guardians and the Relieving Officers of all Unions in Ireland to make themselves acquainted with all such cases as he had mentioned, and to bring them before the magistrates. It would then be the duty of the magistrates to call in the assistance of a medical officer to examine each case; and if, on that examination, and upon the certificate of the doctor, they thought it right, the Bill enabled them to send the lunatic to the workhouse of the Union in which he was found, there to remain until he was discharged cured. In this procedure the Bill followed the English Act of 1853, with the exception that, instead of being sent to the lunatic asylum of the county, the lunatics would be sent to the workhouse. The reason for this was, that there was no room in the Irish asylums for any more patients, the asylums already being overcrowded; and there was no prospect of the country being in a position to afford to make any addition to these very expensive institutions. It was further provided by the Bill that, in every Union, the Guardians should make, and keep, a list of all the lunatic poor within their Union; and all such lunatics should be periodically inspected by the medical officer, for the purpose of ascertaining whether they might be safely left where they were, at large, or whether it would be for their safety or comfort that they should be brought into the workhouse. In that particular the English Act was followed. In transferring the whole supervision and control of the lunatics in Ireland from the two Inspectors, as at present,
  162
  to the Local Government Board, the Bill was in conformity with the recommendations of the Lunacy Inquiry Commission, which strongly advised that there should be one supervising authority in Ireland in lunacy cases. The obstacle in the way of this arrangement, they said, consisted in the present constitution of the Lunacy Department in Ireland, and they went on to recommend that the Local Government Board should have the responsibility. That was the proposal of the Bill. In asking their Lordships to read the Bill a second time, he did not recommend it as a complete measure upon the subject, or pretend that it carried out completely the recommendations of the Commission to which he had alluded; although, so far as it went, it was entirely on the lines of the Report of that Commission, and was, he believed, thoroughly approved of by the Commissioners themselves. Although not complete, it was brought in for the purpose of providing at once a remedy for a great evil, and a great deal of suffering which ought not to be allowed to exist longer; and he had no doubt that, if passed into law, it would, before long, lead to still greater improvements. The Bill might excite the fears of two classes. It might be feared, from the point of view of humanity, that the workhouse was not the best place for the treatment of lunatics. That he would not deny. But they ought to compare the condition of those poor neglected lunatics and idiots now with their condition as it would be in the workhouses. Though the workhouse was not, of course, as far as comfort or medical skill were concerned, equal to those expensive institutions, the county asylums, and though he fully admitted that the Lunacy Commission preferred a more perfect system of treatment for lunatics, by the erection of special auxiliary asylums in different parts of Ireland, he must say that they gave a most favourable opinion of the treatment of lunatics and idiots in a very large number of the Irish workhouses, and spoke of it as highly creditable to the liberality of the Guardians and the supervision of the Local Government Board. All things considered, it must be evident, he thought, that with proper management a workhouse might be made a sufficiently fit place for the care and treatment of harmless lunatics. He had

  163
  no doubt it would be perfectly easy for the Local Government Board, when these new duties were imposed on them, and they felt the responsibility, to take care that proper care and humane treatment should be given to the lunatics and idiots committed to the Irish workhouses. The Bill might also excite fears from the ratepayers' or cesspayers' point of view. But in that respect it would make no difference, except that it would provide for the care in the workhouses of a certain increased number of neglected and often cruelly ill-treated persons. The additional cost would not be large; but, whatever it was, it was a charge which it was perfectly right that the rates should bear. The Bill would remove a large amount of human suffering, and would secure the treatment of lunacy in Ireland upon a better system than ever had prevailed before, while it would load before long to still greater improvements. He begged to move the second reading of the Bill.
  "Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord President.)
  THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORDsaid, he would at once admit that the Bill was an attempt to deal with what was and had been a cruel evil in Ireland; but he held that the method proposed was not the best way of dealing with it, and that it would perpetuate another evil, which, though less, was still a very bad one. There was, no doubt, a great number of lunatics and idiots at large in Ireland, some of whom overflowed into this country; and they were often treated by their relatives in a very cruel manner, and therefore some legislation was required. But this Bill seemed to him to deal with the subject in the most unsatisfactory way. The noble Lord (the Lord President of the Council) had pointed out how those lunatics and idiots would be collected in the workhouses, and he appeared to think that there would be no increase of expense. He also spoke of the cesspayers; but it was the ratepayers and the landlords, not the cesspayers, who would have to pay the rates. Up to the present time, the lunatic asylums were being paid for by the cesspayers, and in addition there was a capitation grant of 4s. per head paid to them by the Government for each inmate, but nothing to the workhouses. Yet this Bill provided for an enormous in-
  164
  crease of lunatics in the workhouses which were supported by the rates. His opinion of the unsuitability of the workhouses for such a purpose was strongly confirmed from personal observation. Beyond that the Commissioners reported that there was, in many cases, very imperfect accommodation in the workhouses for lunatics and idiots, who caused the greatest inconvenience in those establishments, that there was no regular staff provided for them, and no provision for their cleanliness, or for exercise. And yet the Bill proposed largely to increase the number of such persons in the workhouses. The Report also pointed out that, in the lunatic asylums, there were a great many curable cases; and proposed that a certain number of the asylums should be set apart for these cases, while others should be devoted to the dangerous and incurable cases. But the Bill went exactly in the teeth of that Report, except as regarded supervision.
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)said, that he stated that the Commissioners were not in favour of committing these persons to the workhouses; but that they gave a very favourable account of the treatment of lunatics in a large number of the workhouses.
  THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORDsaid, that the Report spoke of the great neglect of lunatics in workhouses. The real question was this—Were enormous numbers of lunatics to be placed in the workhouses, to the disadvantage, not only of the regular inmates, but of the lunatics themselves; and were the Government prepared to increase the burdens of the landlords by an addition to the poor rate? If so, he should be very much inclined to oppose the Bill; but he hoped to hear from his noble Friend the Lord President that there was a prospect of the adoption of some better system. The Bill was both costly and incomplete; costly, because the very first step to be taken, the fitting up of suitable wards, would require a good deal of money. Was it the intention of the Government to put their hands again in the pockets of the Irish landlords? He regarded it as a misfortune that this important subject should be dealt with in this piecemeal manner. Why did not the Government, as it was dealing with the matter at all, instead of doing so in this incomplete manner,

  165
  follow the recommendations of the Royal Commission? At the present moment, they had only succeeded in introducing a Bill, which was bad for the lunatics, bad for the landlords, and bad for the occupiers.
  LORD O'HAGANsaid, he would admit that the present Bill was very imperfect and crude; but he did not think he ought to take upon himself the responsibility of preventing the passing of a measure introduced by the Government dealing with this question. Lunatics who possessed property were already well provided for; but that was by no means the case with the poor. Several attempts had been made to improve their condition; and in 1877 a comprehensive Bill was introduced, which applied to Ireland the whole of the English law on this subject; but the Government of the day were not prepared to accept the measure, and, instead of legislating, appointed a Royal Commission. That Commission inquired into the subject very fully, and reported very exhaustively; and the recommendations contained in its Report, if they had been adopted, would have had the effect of completely assimilating the Irish to the English system, which was a very important matter for Ireland. Nothing, however, was done in a further direction; and, now that so many efforts to help these poor people had been frustrated, he would not take upon himself to resist the present insufficient proposals. It appeared that in the course of the 20 years preceding 1878, the pauper lunatics of Ireland had increased from about 1,500 to about 3,000, and since that period, there was, as he understood, a great many more, so that it was obviously necessary to find a remedy for an evil of such magnitude, by which the sufferings of people so afflicted would be mitigated; but, whatever was done, it should always be borne in mind that the object was not to extend or to stereotype a bad system, but to find a better one. They all knew how indifferent both Houses of Parliament were concerning those matters; but, as they were now dealing with this particular subject, and alive as to the necessity for action with regard to it, he would say that if they did a little, and did not do enough, while they would be giving a palliative to the legislative conscience, they would be relegating to the distant
  166
  future the passing of a proper measure that would have the effect of alleviating the sufferings of the helpless and hopeless poor creatures afflicted with lunacy. He would be a bold man who said that any effort in that direction should be resisted or rejected by the House. At the same time, he was bound to say, at once, that this was a most insufficient measure. He would not, however, as he had said, take upon himself the responsibility of opposing it, as he hoped it would be improved in Committee, inasmuch as he thought it was not by any means bad, as far as it went; and though it was characterized by many defects, it contained several useful provisions. For instance, it was well for the magistrates to be empowered to detain wandering lunatics, and keep them out of harm's way; and it was, no doubt, well that places in which lunatics were appointed to be received should be under medical inspection. This was as it should be; but a further application of the English system was most desirable. The condition of the Irish workhouses had lately attracted much attention, and it was to be hoped that they would be found suitable for the lunatics who, whether paupers or millionaires, ought to be treated in the same liberal manner. The conveniences and arrangements that were necessary were not to be found in Irish workhouses; and the danger was that, if the provisions of the Bill were not adequate, a bad system might be perpetuated, when otherwise it might be destroyed. He would not discuss the proposal to change the control from the Board of Control to the Local Government Board; but he would say that the Inspectors of Lunacy had always done their duty, and he hoped, when the change was made, those services would not be forgetten. The boarding-out of imbecile children and of adult lunatics, who were capable of being so dealt with, was adopted in Scotland, and had been followed for centuries in Belgium; and if it could be resorted to in Ireland it would relieve the gorged asylums and reduce the expenditure for such establishments. It seemed to him to be a proper remedy. If the Bill passed, the Government ought to consider some of the suggestions that had been made.
  THE EARL OF LIMERICKsaid, he was sure that every one of their Lordships would be in favour of any measure

  167
  that would alleviate the sad and miserable condition of the pauper lunatics and idiots of Ireland; but he looked upon the present Bill with some mistrust, for it appeared to him that to carry it properly into effect would render necessary the forming of a properly constituted lunatic ward in every workhouse, and thereby increase the cost to the ratepayers. He was afraid, moreover, it would postpone indefinitely the passing of a better measure. The Bill did not give a magistrate power to commit to any workhouse in which there might be ample space, and which might have the licence of the Local Government Board; but it obliged a magistrate to order a committal to the workhouse of the Union to which the pauper belonged, without giving any power to vary the order. It should also be remembered that the habits of many of these unfortunate persons rendered it impossible that they could be associated with ordinary paupers. If the Bill were properly carried out, it would involve additional heavy charges on the rates, and they ought to be met by some grant from Imperial funds. Unless the Government were prepared to give that assistance, he should be inclined to think it best that the Bill should not be carried at that time. As special Notice had not been given of the measure for that evening, he did not, however, propose to move its rejection; but, when the Bill came to the third reading, he thought its rejection ought to be moved.
  THE EARL OF ROSSEsaid, that he fully concurred with other noble Lords who had spoken, in giving a general approval to the Bill. But while doing so, he thought it would increase the expense to the ratepayers, and, at the same time, it would not give the lunatics any increased accommodation—in fact, if the Bill was passed in its present form, it would remain a dead letter. However, if in Committee some considerable Amendments were moved, it would, perhaps, make the Bill more satisfactory. There could be no doubt that its further consideration would involve, as his noble Friend (the Earl of Limerick) had remarked, an obligation on the part of the Government to consider the suggestion as to making some grant from the Imperial Exchequer.
  THE EARL OF LONGFORDsaid, he hoped the Government would not press
  168
  the Bill, as it did not appear to be acceptable to anybody. He could not oppose it; but he was equally unwilling it should pass in its present shape.
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)said, that after listening to the speeches against the Bill, and still more to the speech delivered by his noble and learned Friend (Lord O'Hagan) in its favour, he did not think the prospects of the Bill were very bright. However, the Irish Government took the greatest interest in the measure, and had promoted it solely with a desire to relieve a great deal of suffering and misery; and, therefore, he should be sorry if the Bill were not read a second time. In moving the second reading, he made allowance for the two classes of objections, which he anticipated—namely, the objections of those who did not agree to the transferring of the maintenance of the institutions from the county cess, which was paid by the occupiers alone, to the poor rate, which was paid by the owners and occupiers combined; and the fears of the humanitarians, who, apparently, would prefer that those wretched creatures should remain at large in the streets, unless they were treated in the most refined and expensive manner in lunatic asylums of the best kind, and who would rather have nothing done unless their schemes were carried out. He now found that he had not rated those objections sufficiently high; and he saw how powerful their effect was in that House. He could assure their Lordships that all the criticisms that had been made on the Bill should be duly considered, and there should be no hurry in pressing it forward; but he hoped their Lordships would assent to the second reading.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBUEYsaid, that after the melancholy speech of the noble Lord opposite (the Lord President of the Council), he should be glad to know when they might expect the next stage of the Bill to be taken?
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL): On this day fortnight.
  Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday the 17 th instant.

PAWNBROKERS BILL.—(No. 79.)
(The Lord Chancellor.)
PAWNBROKERS BILL.—(No. 79.)

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Clauses 1 and 2 severally agreed to.
  Clause 3 (Assistance in the recovery of stolen goods to be given by pawnbrokers).
  EARL FORTESCUE EARL FORTESCUE moved, in page 1, line 21, an Amendment to dispense with the attendance of a police constable in cases of search when notice had been given of stolen articles to the pawnbroker, and to provide for the attendance of the owner, or some friend, or servant, or relative of the owner, who could identify the article, which a policeman generally would be unable to do.
  Amendment moved, in page 1, line 21, after ("behalf") insert ("other than a police constable.")—(The Earl Fortescue.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that considerable concessions had been made to pawnbrokers in that Bill, as compared with the Bill of last year. It was not as if the owner or policeman had power generally to overhaul the goods in the pawnbroker's shop; search would be carried on by the pawnbroker himself. If the Amendment were limited so that any person appointed by the owner, even though that person should be a police constable, could conduct the search, he would accept the Amendment.
  EARL FORTESCUEsaid, he would accept the suggestion of the noble and learned Earl on the Woolsack.
  Amendment (The Earl Fortescue) (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
  Amendment, in page 1, line 21, leave out ("acting"), and insert ("appointed by him to act,")—(The Lord Chancellor.)—agreed to.
  On the Motion of The Lord HENNIKER, the following Amendment made:—In page 1, line 22, after ("possession") insert ("received after the date of the robbery and.")
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 4 (Duty of pawnbrokers to answer police inquiries respecting stolen articles).
  THE EARL OF PEMBROKE THE EARL OF PEMBROKE moved an Amendment providing that only con-
  170
  stables specially chosen for the purpose should be empowered to conduct searches in pawnbrokers' shops. It was not right to intrust such powers to any inexperienced constable. A pawnbroker's business was of a confidential character, and he might reasonably object to the disclosure of his customers' secrets. A young and inexperienced constable might go into a shop where there were 20,000 articles, and insist on the proprietor turning over every one. It would be better that men with special knowledge in the matter should be appointed, and that the wishes of the pawnbrokers should, as far as possible, be acceded to. It should be borne in mind that the evidence given before the Committee of their Lordships' House showed that, as a class, pawnbrokers bore a very high character.
  Amendment moved, in page 2, line 3, after ("by any") insert ("specially authorized.")—(The Earl of Pembroke.)
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOKsaid, that if a constable came to search, he could understand the necessity of his coming with proper authority; but here the constable only came to inquire, and the pawnbroker was to search for himself.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONwanted to know who was to authorize the constable, and what was to be understood by special authority?
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he would point out that the clause only related to inquiries, and gave no power to the constable to search.
  Amendment negatived.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clause 5 (Pawnbrokers to enter in pledge book distinctive marks on pledges).
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he would propose, with the view of meeting an Amendment placed on the Paper by the noble Earl (the Earl of Pembroke), and by way of relieving the pawnbroker to some extent from liability, to substitute for the words "any articles pawned," the words "all watches or articles of plate or jewellery pawned with him, and all other goods pawned for the sum of 20 s. and upwards." With that alteration he thought the clause would meet every reasonable objection. The entry of distinctive marks on articles of the description to which he had referred would enable a pawnbroker in a police court to say whether

  171
  a particular article produced tad been in his possession or not. He hoped their Lordships would adhere to the clause as amended, for it was, perhaps, the most valuable clause in the whole Bill; and as to watches and jewellery, the practice of 90 out of 100 of the respectable pawn-brokers in London was already to have columns in their books for an entry of the distinctive marks.
  Amendment moved, in page 2, line 27, leave out ("any articles pawned") and insert ("all watches or articles of plate or jewellery pawned with him, and all other goods pawned with him, for the sum of twenty shillings or upwards.")—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  THE EARL OF PEMBROKEsaid, he would admit that the alteration got rid of much of the objection he entertained to the clause; but, even with the proposed limitation, it would, in his opinion, prove extremely onerous to pawnbrokers, and would add so materially to their expenses that it ought to be struck out of the Bill.
  LORD HENNIKERsaid, that the Act of 1872 only required nine columns in the pledge book. This clause proposed to add another column, to make the entries in which would require the employment of a skilled person, and add to the pawnbroker's expenses. He thought the clause a very oppressive one.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSSsaid, he thought that the concession made by the noble and learned Earl on the Woolsack was a very considerable one; and he hoped, therefore, his noble Friend (the Earl of Pembroke) would not divide the Committee. Some further revision might, however, be made in the clause as to the registration of marks on articles pawned. He held in his hand a spoon on which a crown and anchor could be clearly seen; but an ordinary inspection would not suffice to show that a broad arrow was mixed up with the other illegible marks. With the best intentions there would be a difficulty in carrying out the clause.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that he, too, had been examining his own watch, and was unable, even with the assistance of a magnifying glass, to make out the number. It consisted of five figures, and there was also a quantity of other marks, all equally
  172
  illegible. Yet, by the Bill, the unfortunate pawnbroker was bound to have all these marks registered; and how he was to do that he (the Marquess of Salisbury) would like to know. He thought that some words should be introduced to show that the pawnbroker was only bound to record such marks and inscriptions as were practicable.
  Amendment agreed to.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that, with a view to obviate the criticisms upon the clause, he would propose to amend it, so that the pawnbroker would be only bound to register "such clear and distinctive" inscriptions and marks as appeared on articles.
  Amendment, in page 1, line 25, after ("such") insert ("clear and,")—(The Lord Chancellor,)—agreed to.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 6 (Detention of persons offering stolen articles).
  EARL FORTESCUEsaid, he objected to the provisions in the clause by which pawnbrokers were required to seize and detain persons who offered to pledge or sell any article or articles which the pawnbroker suspected or had reasonable cause to suspect had been stolen. It might be physically impossible for the pawnbroker to comply with the requirements of the law. In thews and sinews the pawnbroker might often be very inferior to the powerful Bill Sikes, whom this clause compelled him to attempt to seize and detain.
  LORD ABERDAREsaid, it was necessary that the clause should throw the express duty of detaining persons offering stolen goods upon the pawnbroker wherever practicable.
  On the Motion of The Earl of LIMERICK, the following Amendment made:—In page 2, line 34, omit ("suspects or.")
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Remaining clauses agreed to, with Amendments.
  Schedule agreed to.
  LORD NORTON, in moving the insertion of a new clause, to follow Clause 21, said, it often happened that a man pawned an article for 10 s. or 20 s. and immediately sold the ticket, went to the pawnbroker, made a declaration that he

  173
  had lost it, and next day, presenting the declaration, redeemed the article with the money which he had received from the vendee. Shortly afterwards the vendee honestly appeared, showed the ticket, and demanded the article pledged, and the pawnbroker was obliged to pay him the value. The only remedy he had was a prosecution at the Assizes entirely at his own expense, for the expenses of a prosecution were not allowed in such a case, and he had to pay from £10 to £20 in addition to the loss he had sustained by the fraud of the pawner. Giving a power in Petty Sessions to deal summarily with such a case by fine or imprisonment would remedy such injustice and check the frauds so prevalent. That was really the chief change needed in the pawnbrokers' law. Pawnbrokers were mainly a well-conducted class, not to be confounded with the marine store dealers; they helped to detect robberies, and were themselves constantly plundered with impunity.
  Moved, In page 8, after Clause 21, to insert as a new Clause—
  "So much of the twenty-ninth section of the thirty-fifth and thirty-sixth Victoria, chapter ninety-three, as enacts that any person making the declaration provided in the fifth sub-section of the third schedule of that Act, of a pawnticket being lost, knowing the same to be false, shall be guilty of a misdemeanour and liable to the punishment attached to perjury, is repealed; and in lieu thereof be it enacted, that such person shall be liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds, or to be imprisoned for not exceeding six months."—(The Lord Norton.)
  Motion agreed to; Clause inserted accordingly.
  The Report of the Amendments to be received on Tuesday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 136.)

PUBLIC HEALTH (DAIRIES, &c.) BILL.
(The Lord President.)
PUBLIC HEALTH (DAIRIES, &c.) BILL.

  (No. 92.) COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Clauses 1 to 12, inclusive, severally agreed to.
  Clause 13 (Application to Scotland).
  LORD BALFOUR, in moving the omission of the clause, said, that his object was to prevent the application of the Bill to Scotland. He thought it was a very unfortunate course to apply the Bill to Scotland, because the way in
  174
  which the Bill was drawn showed that it was primarily intended to apply to England, since it proposed to transfer powers now exercised by the Privy Council to the Local Government Board. There might, or might not, be in future a Local Government Board for Scotland; but if there was to be, he thought it would be much preferable to wait until it was established, and then transfer from the Privy Council to that Board any powers it might be desirable it should exercise. The Bill, if passed, would take from the county and burgh authorities some of the powers they exercised under the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act of 1878, and transfer them to the local sanitary authorities. In Scotland, the local sanitary authorities were small bodies, being the Parochial Boards of the landward parishes, and the Police Commission or Town Council, as the case might be, in burghs. He understood that one of the reasons for the proposed transference was that the powers of the Act of 1878 had not been generally exercised. There were at present 112 local authorities in Scotland under that Act, and only 24 of them had put the powers conferred on them in force; but, of the 24, not less than 16 were county authorities, and 8 were burgh authorities. There were 33 counties in Scotland and 78 burghs, and the effect of the change would be, that the execution of these powers in the landward districts would be entrusted to the same class of persons as in the burghs, who had already failed, with a small exception, to carry them out. Anyone who knew what the constitution of a Parochial Board was would agree with him that it was a very unfit body to have such extensive powers entrusted to it as were proposed by the Bill. It seemed to him that the parish was much too small an area in which to work an Act of this kind, and that it was much better and more economically done, and with much less friction, when worked by the county authority. If the noble Lord opposite (the Lord President) said that the county was too large an area, he (Lord Balfour) would reply that it was better to wait until a Local Government Board was formed for Scotland, and then see whether some other authority could not be devised for working the Act. If the Bill in the present state of matters were applied to Scotland, he was convinced that nothing but

  175
  evil would ensue from it; and, so far from the Act of 1878 being more zealously worked, the very reverse would he the result. He moved the omission of the clause.
  Moved, "To leave out Clause 13."—(The Lord Balfour.)
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, that there was a rather general impression that this Bill created certain new powers. Was that so? He believed it simply proposed a transference of powers already in existence from one authority to another, but thought it would be desirable that his noble Friend (the Lord President) should make such a statement on the subject as would re-assure those concerned.
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)said, he was glad the noble Earl (the Earl of Carnarvon) had asked the question, because it gave him the opportunity of stating that the Bill was absolutely limited to the transfer of the powers of the 4th section of the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act of 1878 from the Privy Council to the Local Government Board. The fact was that a purely sanitary clause found its way into that Act which had nothing whatever to do with diseases in animals, and was entirely concerned with matters affecting the health of mankind; and the proposal was to transfer the working of that clause to the Department which was concerned with all other sanitary matters, without the smallest addition. As to the proposal to omit Scotland from the Act, he had done his best, since the noble Lord opposite (Lord Balfour) last stated his views, to ascertain how the matter lay, and he had quite failed to convince himself that there was any sufficient reason for omitting Scotland. This was a purely sanitary matter; and if the Scottish sanitary authorities wore fit to deal with all other sanitary matters, they were surely fit to deal with this, and they would henceforth be under the direction of the Board which was charged with sanitary matters. He failed to see how the Bill introduced into the other House, with reference to Scottish Business, affected this question. It proposed a Scotch Department in London, but not to meddle with the Departments in Edinburgh; and he had no reason to believe that it would affect anything except the management of
  176
  Scotch Business in London. It would not affect the constitution or the powers of the Boards in Edinburgh. He, therefore, hoped the noble Lord would not press his Motion.
  LORD BALFOURsaid, he had no intention of discussing what was the precise effect of the Bill just introduced into the other House; but, if the view of the noble Lord opposite (the Lord President) was correct, the measure was of a much more limited nature than the people of Scotland believed. As to the Bill now before their Lordships, he repeated that, if the reason for it was that the existing authorities had not put in force the powers in the Act of 1878, it proposed, in order to correct that failure, to take away the administration of them from the authority in Scotland, one-half of which did put them into force, and to give it to an authority all over Scotland, corresponding with that of which only one-tenth had put them into force.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, he would ask his noble Friend (Lord Balfour) not to press his Motion. He thought the proposal of the noble Lord (the Lord President) was a very proper one. His noble Friend spoke about the local authority in Scotland putting the powers in the Act of 1878 in force. He believed his noble Friend was connected with some authorities who had done so; but still the fact remained that out of 112 local authorities in Scotland only 24 enforced these regulations. He disagreed with his noble Friend when he said that the parish was too small an area in which to put the Act in force. It seemed to him (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon) that the fact of its being a small area would make it much more easy to ascertain whether the dairies wore in good or bad condition. His own idea was, that these provisions had hitherto done an immense deal of good; and he believed it would be greatly to the advantage of both countries that this Bill should pass into law.
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)said, that under the Bill it was probable that the local authorities who had done nothing would hear something from the Board of Supervision, which possessed means of exercising a supervision such as the Privy Council did not possess.
  Motion disagreed to.
  Remaining clause agreed to.
  House resumed.
  Bill reported, without Amendment; and to be read 3a on Thursday next.

REGISTRY OF DEEDS (IRELAND) BILL.
(The lord O'Hagan.)
REGISTRY OF DEEDS (IRELAND) BILL.

  (No. 97.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD O'HAGAN, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that it was intended to carry out the recommendations of a Committee which inquired into the subject of extending the provisions of the Bank Holiday Act to the clerks in the Registry of Deeds Office in Ireland. The proposal was to add four holidays to that which the clerks at present enjoyed, and he thought no one would be inclined to oppose such a proposal.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Lord O'Hagan.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

RAILWAYS (CONTINUOUS BRAKES) BILL [H.L.]
A Bill to provide for the use of Continuous Brakes on passenger trains on railways—Was presented by The Earl DE LA WARR; read 1a. (No. 135.)
House adjourned at Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.