Lords Sitting of 22 February 1883

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments and Office of the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod, appointed and nominated; Standing Orders Committee, appointed and nominated; Committee of Selection, appointed and nominated.
PUBLIC BILL—First Reading—Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (Limerick Waterworks)* (3).

OFFICE OF THE CLERK OF THE PARLIAMENTS AND OFFICE OF THE GENTLEMAN USHER OF THE BLACK ROD.
Select Committee appointed: The Lords following were named of the Committee:

Ld. Chancellor.

E. Bradford.

Ld. President.

E. Granville.

Ld. Privy Seal.

E. Kimberley.

D. Richmond.

E. Redesdale.

D. Saint Albans.

E. Lathom.

M. Lansdowne.

V. Hawarden.

M. Salisbury.

V. Hardinge.

M. Bath.

V. Eversley.

M. Hertford.

Ld. Chamberlain.

Ld. Steward.

L. Colville of Culross.

E. Devon.

L. Monson.

E. Doncaster.

L. Colchester.

E. Tankerville.

L. Aveland.

E. Carnarvon.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
Appointed: The Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, were named of the Committee:

D. Somerset.

V. Hardinge.

M. Winchester.

V. Eversley.

M. Lansdowne.

V. Halifax.

M. Bath.

L. Saye and Sele.

M. Hertford.

L. Balfour of Burleigh.

Ld. Steward.

L. Colville of Culross.

E. Devon.

L. Boyle.

E. Carnarvon.

L. Monson.

E. Cadogan.

L. Digby.

E. Belmore.

L. Carrington.

E. Chichester.

L. Colchester.

E. Powis.

L. Silchester.

E. Verulam.

L. De Tabley.

E. Morley.

L. Sudeley.

E. Stradbroke.

L. Belper.

E. Amherst.

L. Ebury.

E. Camperdown.

L. Hartismere.

E. Lathom.

L. Penrhyn.

V. Hawarden.

L. Wolverton.

V. Hutchinson.

PRIVATE BILLS.
All Petitions relating to Standing Orders which shall be presented during the present Session referred to the Standing Orders Committee unless otherwise ordered.

COMMITTEE OF SELECTION.
The Lords following; viz.,

M. Lansdowne.

L. Colville of Culross.

E. Lathom.

L. Boyle.

were appointed, with the Chairman of Committees, a Committee to select and propose to the House the names of the five Lords to form a Select Committee for the consideration of each opposed Private Bill.

SOUTH AFRICA—THE TRANSVAAL BOERS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD BRABOURNE,in rising to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether the report is correct that the Transvaal Boers have been employing dynamite against the native tribes; and whether Her Majesty's Government have taken any steps to prevent the persecution of those tribes which remained faithful to Her Majesty during the British, administration? said his Question required a little explanation. Their Lordships would remember that upon the accession of Her Majesty's present Government to power the rising of the Transvaal Boers against Her Majesty's authority was at its commencement, and there was a very noisy clamour from a Party in this country in favour of restoring the Transvaal to the Boers. On

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  that occasion he thought it his duty to lay before their Lordships an account of the past doings of the Boers and their uniformly bad treatment of the Native Tribes. The noble Earl (the Earl of Kimberley), who then held the Seals of the Colonial Office, replied that he hoped that this charge against the Boers was of particular rather than universal application, and things would improve. The Boers at the time to which he referred were generally considered to be rebels; but having waylaid and shot down a detachment of one of Her Majesty's regiments, without any declaration of war, and obtained two or three successes over small bodies of our troops, they received the brevet rank of patriots at the hands of Her Majesty's Government. He would not dwell upon those incidents and events, constituting, as they did, in his opinion, one of the darkest, the most painful, and humiliating chapters in our Colonial history. But there was one bright spot in that darkness and in the transactions which followed, and that was to be found in the solicitude expressed by Her Majesty's Government that the Native Tribes should not suffer from the transfer of Her Majesty's Government to the authority of the Boers. Their Lordships would be prepared to admit that, if the Boers were entitled to the name of patriots, the Native Tribes who were there before them had at least an equally legitimate claim to the title. He had noticed in some of the papers statements that the Boers had employed the resources of civilization against the Native Tribes, and on further investigation he found that the employment of the resources of civilization in this instance signified the employment of dynamite for the purposes of blowing up those who were opposed to them. He wished to know whether Her Majesty's Government could give any authentic information upon the subject, and whether they had thought it right to remonstrate with the Boers for thus blowing up the Natives, many of whom had distinguished themselves by their loyalty to this country? He would like to know whether those people would be protected by this country? He was quite aware that by giving up the Transvaal this country got rid of certain responsibilities; but when a great country attempted to get rid of responsibilities, such, trifles
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  as character and reputation were sometimes got rid of at the same time. This country had always preserved a character and reputation for humanity and justice in her dealings with Native Tribes, and we were bound to prevent those from being sacrificed, whose chief offence had been loyalty to our authority and confidence in our goodwill and ability to protect them. He hoped that the noble Earl who now held the Seals of the Colonial Office would give their Lordships some assurance that dynamite had not been used, and that it was untrue that the Natives had been persecuted and destroyed because of their loyalty to this country.
  THE EARL OF DERBY: In answer to the Question that has been put to me by my noble Friend, I have to say that I have looked carefully through the despatches relating to Transvaal affairs, and I cannot find any mention in them of the statement to which my noble Friend refers—namely, that dynamite has been used in military operations against the Natives. I confess I do not attach quite the importance which my noble Friend does to the circumstance. It may or may not be right that military operations should be carried on; but if they are carried on, I do not see that there is necessarily more inhumanity in the employment of dynamite than in the employment of gunpowder. The only case in which I have seen it publicly stated that dynamite has been used was in certain operations against a Chief of the name of Mapoch, who owns, or at least claims to own, a territory of more than 3,000 square miles situated in the interior of the Transvaal country, and claims the position of an independent Ruler. This Chief can hardly be said to have been one of those who remained faithful to the British Government, as the only record of him which I can find is this—that during the whole time that the Transvaal was administered by British authorities he steadily and persistently refused payment of taxes, and he never did pay any, but maintained a position of independence. In October last Mr. Hudson, our Agent at Pretoria, wrote that the Transvaal Government were anxious, if possible, to avoid a war upon this Chief; but it appears that it has not been possible to avoid it, and some military operations are going on. In answer to the more

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  general Question of my noble Friend, I have not seen any evidence of that to which he refers—namely, that a systematic persecution has been directed against the Native Tribes who remained faithful to the British Government. Unfortunately, there has been a great deal of filibustering outside the borders of the Transvaal State. That has been carried on by irresponsible adventurers, partly Boers, and partly, I am afraid, Englishmen; and Her Majesty's Government are now in communication with the local authorities at the Cape, with a view to take such measures as may be possible to check proceedings in the country. I am bound to say that I do not feel very sanguine because of the difficulties in the way. We have to deal with a savage country, where there are no roads, and which lies far beyond the borders of the British Empire. Under these circumstances, unless we establish a Protectorate over the country, which I do not think anybody would desire, I do not think it will be easy to prevent disorder; but we shall do what we can; and, as I have said, we are in communication with the Cape Government on the subject. I do not believe that the motives of these filibusters have been of a political character; it rather seems to me that the disturbances have arisen from a desire to acquire land without paying for it. It is impossible to deny that the Government of the Transvaal have not done all that they might have been called on to do, in order effectually to repress these disorders. But it is difficult to give a general account of the state of matters in a brief answer to a Question; and perhaps the best answer I can give my noble Friend is, that the whole of the Papers on this subject are in the hands of the printers, and will be delivered in the course of the next few days; and when he has read them, he and your Lordships will be in a position to know as much as I know what is taking place in that country.

HIGHWAYS—LEGISLATION.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  EARL DE LA WARR,in asking, Whether Her Majesty's Government propose to introduce any measure this Session on the subject of highways, or in any other manner to afford relief to ratepayers in consequence of the heavy
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  burdens with which they were charged to maintain them? said, their Lordships would remember that a Select Committee was appointed last Session to inquire into all questions affecting highways and the working of the Highway Acts. A large amount of evidence was given, showing that amendments in those Acts were much needed, and that burdens upon the ratepayers had considerably increased, owing, in a great measure, to the charges for the maintenance of main roads, since the abolition of turnpikes, and also in consequence of expenses in the working of Highway Boards. Last year assistance was given in the shape of a payment from the Treasury; but, as there must be uncertainty about this in the future, there was naturally some anxiety as to what Her Majesty's Government proposed to do. There was, no doubt, an increasing feeling in the country that main roads, which were so much used by the public, should be made a national charge, or that some alteration should be made in that direction. He begged to ask the Question of which he had given Notice.
  THE MARQUESS OF HERTFORDsaid, that, before the noble Lord answered the Question, he should like to say that he could endorse all that the noble Earl had advanced in regard to highway rates. The noble Earl's Question was asked in the interests of the farmers, whose prospects, he feared, were more depressed than most people were aware. Judging from the Speech from the Throne, he doubted whether the Government sufficiently realized the terrible straits to which the agricultural interest had been reduced. Had the Government been alive to all the sad facts of the case, they would have regarded the relief of agriculture as a question deserving of a prominent place in their list of proposed measures; whereas, in fact, they had mentioned no Bills affecting the farmers, except the Local Government Bill, the Bill for the Conservancy of Rivers and the Prevention of Floods, and the proposal more effectually to secure to tenants compensation for improvements. Most of these measures were unquestionably necessary; and if they were brought forward without any Party spirit, and with a sincere desire to benefit both landlords and tenants, would be well received on that side of the House. Those proposals, however, good

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  as they were, would not give any real help to the impoverished farmers. The depression had, in many cases, been most severe where the tenants were already in a good position as regarded their landlords, and for efficient relief it was necessary to look to the removal of local burdens. Surely it was a monstrous injustice that on the abolition of the turnpikes the whole of the charges of the highways should be borne by the land. Personal property paid nothing whatever for the maintenance of the roads, which, nevertheless, wore freely used and cut up by the carts of brewers, coal merchants, and timber merchants. The desired change might be difficult of accomplishment, but could not be impossible. Again, there was the question of heavy education rates, especially where there are board schools, and he would point out how landed property was taxed to the relief of the rest of the community. He hoped to have an early opportunity of discussing this, and the other unjust burdens at present imposed on the land. He trusted that better seasons would come, and that farmers would, with renewed and increased energy, apply themselves to the cultivation of the soil, and not be led astray by agitators who were simply trying to set class against class. He hoped that the Government would put aside all Party feelings, and do their best to pass good measures which would be a relief to the agriculturists, who were as hard working, law-abiding, and loyal a class as any in the Kingdom.
  LORD CAKRLNGTON,in reply, said, that £250,000 was voted by Parliament last year in relief of the highway rates, and it was the intention of the Government to propose to continue the arrangement on the same basis, though, from more accurate knowledge of the sums required, there might be some slight difference in the amount.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER (LIMERICK WATERWORKS) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order of the Local Government Board for Ireland relating to Waterworks in the City of Limerick—Was presented by The LORD PRIVY SEAL; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 3.)
  House adjourned at Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.