(NO. 199.) SECOND READING. (Hansard, 20 August 1883)

§ LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)
, in moving that 1311 the Bill be now read the second time, said, that its main object was to remedy several defects in the Scotch Education Act, which had been pressed upon the notice of the Education Department by various School Boards in Scotland, and which he believed all the friends of education in that country admitted that it was desirable to cure. They related principally to the subject of school attendance, and the means of securing that attendance in a satisfactory way. At present those means were in some respects imperfect, and were not the same as in England. He would describe, in a very few words, the effect of the principal clauses. The 3rd clause was intended to increase the facilities for having school board cases tried. These cases, at present, could only be heard before the Sheriff Court, and that appeared very often to be a matter of great inconvenience and difficulty from the distance which the parties had to go. The clause, therefore, provided that such cases might be heard not only in the Sheriff Court, but by the Sheriff when he went on Circuit for the determination of small-debt cases, and also by the Police Courts of the burghs. By Clause 4 it was proposed to amend the corresponding clause of the Education Act of 1872, by requiring that a parent should not only provide an elementary education for his children—which, as the law now stood, might be satisfied by sending the child to a very inefficient or unrecognized school—but that the parent in future should provide efficient elementary education. It also extended the time of compulsory attendance from the age of 13 to the age of 14. As things now stood—very absurdly—although under the Factories Acts a child could not be employed until he was 14 years of age, the power of sending him to school compulsorily ceased at the age of 13. It was desirable that such an anomalous state of things should be put an end to. By Clause 5, enactments were made which would put an end to doubts in the law, the effect of which was, according to certain decisions, that the parents of a child were able without much difficulty to evade the compulsory provisions of the law by simply sending the child to school at the time when prosecution took place, although he had not been attending school for months beforehand. The rest of that clause extended the 1312 power of payment for poor children, as the former clause extended the compulsory attendance from 13 to 14. Clause 6 was of some importance, being intended to put labour in Scotland on the same footing as in England. At present, under the Factory Acts in Scotland, a child could work in a factory or workshop as a half-timer from 10 years old, provided that he then went to school. The child was not required, as in England, to have passed any examination under the Standards whatever; so that in many cases the parent did not begin to send his child to school until he was 10 years of age. That was quite contrary to the spirit of the Acts. Clause 9 greatly improved the means of enforcing school attendance precisely upon the lines of the English Act. At present, in Scotland, the parent could only be prosecuted for gross and habitual neglect in sending his children to school—which were very wide words indeed, and had given rise to great difficulty in the Scotch Sheriff Courts. There were no bye-laws, as in England, by which they could require the attendance of a child unless there was some reasonable excuse; but under this clause the Court might make an order which would have the same effect as the bye-laws of English School Boards. Clause 11 defined what reasonable excuse should be. Clause 12 allowed other persons, such as the School Inspectors, to put the school board in motion in these matters. Under Clause 13, provision was made for another matter which was very much desired in Scotland—namely, the power of requiring school boards in certain cases to combine for the formation of a joint board. There were cases in which parishes adjoined, and where there was a very small number of children in each—there might be a dozen—and yet for some reason or other, which could not be a good reason, they declined to join in a common school board, and in having a common school. He trusted their Lordships would accept the Bill, because these changes would effect a real improvement in the Scotch Education Act.

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL
said, he had not seen the Bill before coming down to that House; but he had very great confidence in the judgment 1313 of the Scotch Education Department, especially in the knowledge with regard to Scotch matters which was possessed by Sir Francis Sandford. Yet there were certain things in this Bill which struck him as being rather strong. According to the 6th clause, a child under 10 could not be employed unless he had passed the Third Standard. It was not a provision that such a child should not be taken on full time, but that he should not be employed at all. He ventured to say that that was really impracticable. Farmers would now and then employ children to dig potatoes and do light farm work; but what means had they of knowing whether the child had passed the Third Standard or not? That seemed to be over-legislation.

§ LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)
said, that the law already prohibited the employment of such children, except in factories and workshops; and the Bill proposed to extend the prohibition to factory and workshop labour.

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL
said, he could assure his noble Friend that if the law now was that a farmer could not employ a child under 10 years of age, it was a law which was not much observed. The only other part of the Bill which struck him as being rather strong was the 13th clause, where the Education Department had absolute power of their own discretion, and without remonstrance from anybody, to require that school boards should be what the Education Department required them to be. That clause had some bearing on another measure which was about to come before their Lordships—namely, the Local Government Board (Scotland) Bill. He was not, perhaps, so much in favour of that scheme as some of his noble Friends; still, there was much to be said in favour of the improved management of Scotch Business; but he might say he felt sure that, whatever improvement was made in the local government of Scotland, the people of that country were extremely desirous—desirous almost above all things—that the new powers which were about to be given to the new body should include education. As to what was now called the Scotch Education Department, he believed that he himself had long had the honour of being a Member of it; and he did not 1314 recollect having ever been summoned to attend on more than one occasion during a considerable number of years. The practical result was, that the Scotch Education Department were the officials of the Privy Council Office. It was true that good work had been done through the exertions of eminent educationists interested in Scotland; but it did not follow that the system would continue to work well under different circumstances. Therefore, the Department were to have absolute power, without consultation with any Scotch body, to require the junction of school boards with surrounding or contiguous districts. He thought there should be an appeal to somebody in Scotland in regard to that power, as it might operate inconveniently in some places. As at present advised, he thought that was a stronger power than should be conferred on the central authority in London.

LORD BALFOUR
, speaking from his own experience as Chairman of a school board, said, that the provisions of the Bill were really very much required in the interests of education in Scotland, more especially that provision which enabled school boards to keep back children at school until the age of 14. By a curious anomaly in the Factory Acts and the Education Act, when read together, they could prevent a child from working full time above the age of 13 and below the age of 14; but they could not keep that child at school. He believed that the school board of which he was Chairman was, if not the first, at least one of the first, to bring this anomaly to the knowledge of the Department. He was glad it was now in a fair way of being cured. He quite agreed with the noble Duke (the Duke of Argyll) that the law as to the employment of young children was not very rigidly enforced; but perhaps that was a part of the law which was best left to the discretion of the local authorities. But this he must say from experience, and from the evidence laid before the Factory Commission some years ago—that it was of the utmost importance, in the interests of the child, that he or she should be well grounded before going to work. If the child went to work half time without any education at all, the half time attendance at school was practically useless to the child. If he had been well grounded before going to 1315 work, half attendance was nearly as good as whole time. He should be very much pleased to see this Bill passed through Parliament, and he believed it would have the very best possible effects upon Scotch education.