HL Deb 16 August 1883 vol 283 cc684-91

Amendments reported (according to order).

Clause 2 (Restrictions as to improvements before Act).

Amendment moved, In page 2, line 10, after ("improvement") at end of clause, add ("but under deduction of the value of any manure stipulated for under the lease.")—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)

LORD CARLINGFORD (Lord PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)

said, he thought the words in the clause were amply suffi- cient, and that nothing would be gained by the change.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH

remarked, that those who would suffer would not be the landlords.

Amendment (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 4 (Notice to landlord as to improvements in second part of Schedule).

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL

suggested that, instead of fixing the rate of interest at 4 per cent to be paid by a tenant for improvement executed by his landlord, they should substitute the words— At the rate per cent at which the money could he borrowed from a land improvement company in the same period. The object of this proposal was that the landlord might not lose by the transaction, as in many cases the improvements on which interest at the rate of 4 per cent would be paid might yield to the tenant from 14 to 30 per cent. Under those circumstances, it would be very hard that the landlord should be losing on the transaction all the time the tenant was gaining upon it. He threw the suggestion out for consideration on the third reading.

THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON

had no objection to the proposal, as his sole desire was that the landlord should not have to pay more for the loan of money than he would be allowed by the tenant.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

said, he agreed with the justice of the proposal, but under it a tenant might have to pay occasionally as much as 6½ and even 8 per cent.

LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL) moved the following Proviso from the English Bill:— The landlord and tenant may, if they think fit, dispense with any notice under this section, and come to an agreement between themselves, in the same manner and of the same validity as if such notice had been given.

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL

suggested that the words "the landlord and tenant may, in terms of the lease, or otherwise," should be added; but he would not press that at the present stage.

Amendment agreed to.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH

rose to move an Amendment of which he had given Notice.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

said, the time had gone past for moving that Amendment.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH

said, he must protest against the irregular manner in which Business was carried on in the House. The sort of conversation which went on in conducting a Bill of this kind made it impossible for anyone to know what was taking place. There were great complaints about the bad acoustics of the building; but it was more the fault of the Members themselves than the construction of the building that no one could hear.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 5 (Reservation as to existing and future leases).

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

said, he rose to call attention to the last sub section of Clause 5——

THE EARL OF GALLOWAY

rose to a point of Order, and remarked that it had been stated by the Lord Chancellor that they had got to Clause 6 of the Bill. ["No, no!"] Noble Lords might not have heard it, but he certainly was led to understand that they had reached Clause 6. The noble Duke (the Duke of Buccleuch) had been prevented from putting his Amendment upon Clause 4, because the conversation going on in the House had prevented his hearing that Clause 5 had been announced by the Lord Chancellor as being discussed. For his (the Earl of Galloway's) part, he had no objection to either clause being discussed; but if the noble Duke was ruled out of Order in discussing Clause 4, because Clause 5 was under discussion, similarly, the noble Earl (the Earl of Camperdown) was out of Order in discussing Clause 5 when Clause 6 was under discussion.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

explained that Clause 6 was mentioned by himself in consequence of seeing a Notice upon the Paper in reference to it, but nothing had been moved upon it; therefore, the noble Lord was perfectly in Order in referring to Clause 5.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

said, he wished to ask what was the meaning of the following sub-section of Clause 5:— The last preceding provision of this section relating to a particular agreement shall apply in the case of a tenancy under a contract of tenancy current at the commencement of this Act, in respect of an improvement specified in the third part of the Schedule hereto, specific compensation for which is not provided by any agreement in writing or custom. He had appealed to persons accustomed to drafting Bills for an explanation, but they seemed as ignorant as him-self?

LORD CARLINGFORD (Lord PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)

said, the case stood in this way. The second paragraph of the clause provided for agreements for fair and reasonable compensation, but it only gave that power in the case of tenancies beginning after the commencement of this Act. Therefore, if the clause ended there, there would have been no means for landlords and tenants to enter into fair and reasonable agreements during the currency of an existing lease. The new paragraph had nothing to do with existing agreements and customs, such as were referred to in the first paragraph of the clause; it related entirely to the future. It was to enable agreements to be made during the currency of a lease existing at the commencement of the Act that the paragraph was inserted, and if the noble Lord studied the matter he would find that it was quite necessary, for the reason he had stated.

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL

said, he did not believe that the clause as it originally stood precluded landlords and tenants from entering into these agreements.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 6 (Set off of benefit to tenant).

Amendment moved, In page 4, line 31, at end of clause, add—"Nothing in this section or in any other section of this Act shall enable a tenant to obtain compensation under this Act in respect of any boning, claying, liming, or marling of land executed more than seven years before the determination of the tenancy, or in respect of any purchased artificial or other purchased manure applied, or any cake or other feeding stuff consumed on the holding more than three years before the determination of the tenancy."—(The Earl of Wemyss.)

After a pause,

THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON

asked whether the Lord President of the Council had not a word to say on that Amendment?

LORD CARLINGFORD (Lord PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)

replied, that the noble Lord on the Cross Bench had not said a word in support of his own Amendment, and therefore he had not felt himself called upon to answer him. To all their Lordships except the noble Lord himself he thought it must seem impossible for anyone who had accepted the second reading of the Bill to accept his words, which would substitute for the provisions of the Bill a system of artificial periods of compensation and of exhaustion of the improvements. The Amendment proposed that the periods should be seven years in certain cases, and three years in others. That was, of course, absolutely opposed to the principle upon which the Bill was drawn; and, with respect to the three years, it was, he thought, even opposed to the Act of 1875.

Amendment negatived.

Clause 17 (Reference to and award by oversman).

On the Motion of The Lord PRESIDENT an Amendment made by inserting page in 7, at end of Clause, the following new paragraph:— In any case provided for by sections three, four, or five, if compensation is claimed under this Act, such compensation, as under any of those sections is to be deemed to be substituted for compensation under this Act, if and so far as the same can under the terms of the agreement, if any, be ascertained by the referees or the oversman, shall be awarded in respect of any improvements thereby provided for, and the award shall, when necessary, distinguish such improvements, and the amount awarded in respect thereof, and an award given under this Clause shall be subject to the appeal provided by this Act.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 29 (What notice to be given of termination of tenancy).

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH

said, he proposed to amend the clause, by providing that the section should not apply to leases current at the commencement of this Act which had less than five, instead of two, years to run.

Amendment moved, in page 11, line 27, leave out ("two") and insert ("five.")—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)

LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)

said, the Government could not agree to that Amendment.

Amendment (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 34 (Commencement of Act).

LORD LOVAT

said, that, on behalf of his noble Friend (the Earl of Stair), he would propose that the Act should come into operation at the term of Whitsuntide instead of on the 1st of January.

Amendment moved, in page 13, line 24, after ("on") leave out ("the first day of January") and insert ("the term of Whitsuntide.")—(The Lord Lovat.)

LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)

said, he thought it would not be well to defer the operation of the Act until Whitsuntide without some very good reason for it. For his part, he could not see what advantage there would be in the change, and what the risks were that were supposed to attend the earlier operation of the Bill. With respect to the improvements in Part I., they could not be affected by it in any way; and, with respect to drainage works, the noble Lord would see that no tenant, as the Bill stood, could do that which he seemed to be so much afraid of—that no drainage could be begun until the 1st of next March, as two months' notice, beginning after the 1st of January, of an intention to drain a field had to be given to the landlord. By an alteration that had been made in the Bill no tenant could begin to manure, or lime, or do anything of that kind without first giving six months' notice; therefore, he could not see that anything would be gained by deferring the commencement of the Act.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

thought there was a serious difficulty in the way in consequence of the earlier period in Clause 5. In the 2nd subsection they would observe that the Act enacted that in all cases in reference to tenancies at will, which were called tenancies under lease in Scotland, when a new tenancy commenced at the first period at which notice could be given to terminate the tenancy at will—that was to say, the first period after the commencement of the Act—in order to get their agreement into operation, so that they should be capable of substituting it for the Act, they must have made with every one of their tenants a new agreement, and they would have to do that by Ladyday or Candlemas, or whatever was the day at which the tenancy ceased. That was rather a severe requirement, and the end of it would be that in order to save himself the landlord would give notice to quit, in order to prevent being left altogether without the substitution of his own agreement for the compensation he was called upon to pay.

Amendment (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 35 (Application of Act).

LORD LOVAT

said, he would propose that the Act should apply to a holding of less than two acres in extent if it was of the value of £2. In the Highlands small holdings were often given by way of charity, and it was not proposed that such holdings should come under the operation of the Act. If the clause remained as at present, small holdings in the Highlands might mean nothing, because the holding might consist of bare rock; but if it was made £2, that would mean something.

LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)

said, that as he had not agreed to the limit of two acres, he could not agree to the present proposal; but if the noble Lord considered it absolutely necessary, he hoped he would raise the point on the third reading.

Amendment (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 86 (Avoidance of agreement inconsistent with Act).

Amendment moved, In page 13, line 39, at end of clause, add—"Provided that nothing in this Act shall make it illegal for a landlord and tenant to agree in writing that the purchased artificial or other purchased manures, in respect of which a claim for compensation may he made under this Act, shall be limited to the manures specified in such writing; and if the landlord and tenant so agree, no claim shall be competent to the tenant under this Act in respect of the application to the holding of any such manure not specified in such writing."—(The Earl of Wemyss.)

LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)

said, as the noble Earl had given no reasons for the Amendment, his own reasons why he could not accept it would be very brief. This was one of those precautions against an infinitesimal and unlikely danger, which he thought they would be very ill-advised if they introduced it into the Bill. It was quite possible that an unenlightened owner of land might use such a general power as this in a very mischievous way. He might force his tenant to consent to an agreement which would exclude him from the purchase of all manures except one. He might have a great dislike to the purchase of manures, and a still greater dislike to put his hand into his pocket to give compensation. The best security against the use of injurious manures was the tenant's own interest.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

Bill be read 3a To-morrow; and to be printed, as amended. (No. 200.)