Lords Sitting of 2 August 1883

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Trial of Lunatics * (169); Agricultural Holdings (England) * (171); Public Health Act,
1875, (Support of Sewers) Amendment* (172); Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 5) * (173); Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 8) * (174).
Second Reading—Greenwich Hospital (165).
Committee—Summary Jurisdiction (Repeal, &c.)* (153); Merchant Shipping (Fishing Boats) (144–170).
Committee — Report — Metropolitan Board of Works (Money) * (149).
Report—Companies (Colonial Registers) * (150).
Royal Assent—Consolidated Fund (No. 4) [46 & 47 Vict. c. 23]; Turnpike Acts Continuance [46 & 47 Vict. c. 21]; Poor Relief (Ireland) [46 & 47 Vict. c. 24]; Sea Fisheries [46 & 47 Vict. c. 22]; Sea Fisheries (Ireland) [46 & 47 Vict. c. 26]; Prison Service (Ireland) [46 & 47 Vict. c. 25]; Tramways Provisional Orders [46 & 47 Vict. c. cxxxi]; Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (London) [46 & 47 Vict. c. cxxxii]; Tramways Provisional Orders (No. 3) [46 & 47 Vict. c. cxxxiii]; Local Government (Gas) Provisional Order [46 &47 Vict. c. cxxxiv]; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 4) [46 & 47 Vict. c. cxxxv]; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 5) [46 & 47 Vict. c. cxxxvi]; Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 7) [46 & 47 Vict. c. cxxxvii]; Local Government Provisional Orders (Poor Law) (No. 2) [46 & 47 Vict. c. cxxxviii].

MERCHANT SHIPPING (FISHING BOATS) BILL.—(No. 144.)
(The Lord Thurlow.)
MERCHANT SHIPPING (FISHING BOATS) BILL.—(No. 144.)

  COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
  Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into Committee."
  LORD NORTONsaid, he was extremely sorry that the Bill had been delayed so long that its passage through Parliament had been endangered. It was an entire misapprehension to suppose that the Smackowners' Association of Hull was opposed to this measure. They had petitioned for delay; but he had the authority of Mr. Norwood, the Chairman of the Departmental Committee, for saying that they wished to withdraw that Memorial, and were anxious there should not be any further delay in the passing of the Bill. The Bill gave no more than necessary protection to a large number of lads employed in the fishing trade, who were often brutally treated, and who very much needed protection. They were often taken into the Service at the age of 11, many of them were orphans and paupers, and they were altogether without the protection they required both afloat and ashore. Mer-

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  chant shipping legislation over-protected the men in the Service, who could look after themselves, and gave no protection to the boys, who were at their mercy. On the other hand, since recent legislation had deprived smackowners of their summary remedy against desertion or mutinous conduct, and left them only a pecuniary remedy, which was absolutely futile, the Act was necessary in the interests of the smackowners also. Under these circumstances, he trusted that the Bill might be allowed to become law this Session. It had been objected that they had only the Report of a Depart- mental Committee on this subject. But the inquiry of that Committee had been a most careful one; they had taken evidence from all parties concerned, and visited the places; and if they were to wait for a Parliamentary Committee, they would postpone the consideration of the matter sine die.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSSsaid, he was sorry to take a different view to that of the noble Lord. This Bill did not merely give protection to the boys. It was a Bill which would compel every fishing vessel of over 20 tons to hold a certificate it involved great changes with regard to the regulation of lodging-houses, and was a Bill of some importance. It enacted some of the strongest provisions of the Merchant Shipping Act. Mr. Birkbeck, who had signed the Report of the Special Committee, had written that lie thought it "indispensable" the Bill should be postponed till another year, on the ground that the details seemed to be so little known in certain quarters. He (the Earl of Wemyss) therefore hoped that, with the view of making legislation effective, time would be given to all parties concerned to further consider the Bill.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he thought the appeal of the noble Earl was one to which their Lordships ought to give some attention. The Bill was a peculiar one. It proposed to make a great alteration in the existing law, and was being pushed on at a time when it was impossible to scrutinize its details. At first he had been strongly impressed in favour of the Bill by seeing on the Departmental Committee which sat on it the name of Mr. Birkbeck, M.P.; but it was now stated that Mr. Birkbeck considered the matter had not been sufficiently inquired into. There were
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  great objections to it on the part of the population who would be subjected to its operation. Earnest representations had been made to him (the Marquess of Salisbury) on the subject by the Smackowners' Association, and they had not since informed him that their objections were withdrawn. As matters stood, their Lordships had no security that in passing this Bill they would not be doing harm instead of good, and going against the wishes of the people who would be affected by it. He, therefore, thought their Lordships should not go into Committee on the Bill at that time.
  LORD NORTONexplained, that Mr. Birkbeck signed the Report, except as to the size of vessels requiring the granting of certificates. The population Mr. Birkbeck represented were, therefore, committed to the Bill, with that exception. He denied that there was any great alteration as to existing provisions of the law in the Bill.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, the proceedings on this Bill were founded on the Report of the Departmental Committee. He thought it reasonable that when a Bill had been brought in, although some Gentlemen might change their minds with regard to it, it should receive full consideration. He understood that it was extremely desirable that this matter should be dealt with, and therefore he thought they might be allowed to get into Committee. He regretted that Mr. Birkbeck, after having declared in. favour of the Bill, should have turned round in his opinion.
  Motion agreed to.
  House in Committee accordingly; Amendments made: The Report thereof to be received To-morrow; and Bill to be printed, as amended. (No. 170.)

GREENWICH HOSPITAL BILL.
(The Earl of Northbrook.)
GREENWICH HOSPITAL BILL.

  (NO. 165.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, the object of the Bill was to provide the widows of seamen in the Royal Navy who lost their lives in the Service with pensions; and also to provide for sending their young boys to

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  charitable institutions instead of to Greenwich Hospital School. In such cases as the loss of the Atalanta and Eurydice, the widows and children had received allowances from subscriptions raised by the country. This, however, was but a precarious provision, and failed to meet isolated cases. The proposals of this Bill were in accordance with the original objects of the foundation of Greenwich Hospital, and it was singular that so many years had elapsed without some such provision being made. Power was to be vested in the Admiralty of selecting the boys who were to be sent to the institutions referred to. He begged to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl of Northbrook.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION — REPORT ON PUBLIC-HOUSES.

  MOTION FOR A PAPER.
  THE BISHOP OF ROCHESTER, in rising to move for Copy of any minutes recently made by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for England upon the subject of public-houses of which they are the owners, said, that he did so in consequence of a letter which was written in July of last year by Canon Basil Wilberforce, and which was remarkable for the courageous emphasis with which the author expressed his convictions, and for an important extract which it contained from a lively periodical called The Sword and Trowel. Almost the last public letter written by the late Archbishop of Canterbury was to express his opinion that some notice ought to be taken of that letter; and in the month of November the Ecclesiastical Commissioners appointed a Committee to consider the subject. The Report of the Committee had been made after full and careful consideration. In the extract to which he had alluded, two distinct charges had been made, one of which was of a sensational character, which had been copied into the newspapers, and had been made the subject of an elaborate attack in an American book of travels just published. It was to the effect that the Bishop of London, as he
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  travelled from his house in St. James's Square to his Palace at Fulham, passed at least 100 public-houses built on Church property. It was impossible to meet that statement, because the route which his Lordship might take was not indicated; but it was stated, upon an authority which their Lordships would regard as supreme, that as a matter of fact the right rev. Prelate, in travelling from London to Fulham, passed by two public-houses upon ecclesiastical property. The other statement was, that there were four public-houses on ecclesiastical property, two of which wore earning 10,000 a - year. Two gin palaces were stated to be in Knightsbridge; but those houses had never come under the control of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. They were let some years ago by the Dean and Chapter of Westminster on a beneficial lease, which had still 16 years to run. With respect to the "Royal Oak" public-house, at Notting Hill, which was said to bring in an enormous revenue, it was not on the Commissioners' estate, or in any sense on Church property. As to the "Hero of Waterloo," it was sold to the South-Eastern Railway Company by the Archbishop of Canterbury 23 years ago, and the Ecclesiastical Commissioners never had any kind of control over it. The public-house property of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners might be divided into three categories. In the first category were the houses of which they had only the reversion, and of which the beneficial lessees were practically the landlords. Of at least one-half of these, the Commissioners had not yet come into possession. The majority of the leases extended to the year 1900, and had 50 or 60 years to run. The Commissioners received only a very small ground rent from these properties; the leases gave them very little control; and they had no power of buying out the lessees. In the next category were public-houses on old building estates. In regard to these, he had to inform their Lordships that vigilance and discretion were exorcised in re-letting those houses as the leases fell in. Within the last two years 21 cases of re-letting had been considered. Of these, nine had been suppressed, 11 extended, and one not dealt with at all. In the third category were public-houses on now building estates recently laid out and leased

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  by the Commissioners. On these estates the public-houses were few, and liberty to lessees to erect public-houses was sparsely granted and strictly limited. The Commissioners owned 19 building estates in the Metropolis, including 1,154 acres, and 4,500 houses. On nine of these estates there were no public-houses at all, and on 10 there were 24. Of course, if it was to be admitted as an axiom that it was an offence against society, and a grave moral evil, either to manufacture or sell intoxicating liquors, then the Commissioners must be held to be culpable in granting or renewing these leases; but, perhaps, their Lordships would be of opinion that that was philanthropy gone mad. It was not the practice of the Commissioners to let as a public-house a house which had not before been used as such. They suppressed beerhouses as much as they could, and had already suppressed many. The Commissioners were clearly of opinion that their interest in this class of property should be diminished as far as practicable. The Commissioners further recommended that where it could be advantageously done progress should be made in selling public-houses and in declining new leases, and that no more considerations of income should induce them to sanction the extension of public-houses maintained by the sale of intoxicating liquors. The Commissioners could not, however, promise that no public-houses should be erected on estates which were in process of development. He trusted that when the Report came into their Lordships' hands they would consider that the Commissioners had been acting properly under the duties and responsibilities laid upon them. He begged to move the Motion which stood in his name.
  Moved, That there be laid before the House—
  "Copy of any minutes recently made by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for England upon the subject of public-houses of which they are the owners."—(The Lord Bishop of Rochester.)
  EARL STANHOPE, on behalf of the Commissioners, said, that he had no objection to the publication of the Minutes referred to in the Motion. After the comprehensive statement of the right rev. Prelate, it was not necessary for him to enter into the details of the public-house property held by the Com-
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  missioners. He might observe, however, that some important hotels, such as the Westminster Palace Hotel, belonged to that Body. The Commissioners dealt with their public-house property very much as large private owners of similar property dealt with theirs; and, like the Duke of Westminster, they had in the last few years suppressed, actually or prospectively, a great number of public-houses. That very day a recommendation had been made by the Estates Committee of the Commission, with a view to the suppression of a public-house in St. Saviour's Parish, Southwark, on the ground that there was already too large a number of such houses in that parish. He hoped their Lordships would consent to the Motion and printing of the Papers asked for.
  Motion agreed to.

  TRIAL OF LUNATICS BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the law respecting the trial and custody of insane persons charged with offences—Was presented by The Loom CHANCELLOR; read 1a. (No. 169.)
  House adjourned at half past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.