Lords Sitting of 5 April 1883

MINUTES.
Sat First in Parliament—The Lord Egerton, after the death of his father; The Lord Vaux of Harrowden, after the death of his grandfather.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Tithe Rent-charge* (22).
Second Reading—Medical Act Amendment (16); Consolidated Fund (No. 2).

CHANNEL TUNNEL—THE JOINT COMMITTEE.
Message from the Commons, That they have appointed a Committee, to consist of five Members, to join with a Committee of their Lordships to inquire whether it is expedient that Parliamentary sanction should be given to a sub marine communication between England and France; and to consider whether any or what conditions should be imposed by Parliament in the event of such communication being sanctioned; and to request that their Lordships will be pleased to appoint an equal number of Lords to be joined with the Members of that House.
Ordered, That the said Message be taken into consideration To-morrow.

THE IRISH LAND COMMISSION.

  QUESTION.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEasked the Lord President of the Council, When further Returns as to the Land Act and Returns as to the working of the Arrears Act would be presented to the House?
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL): My Lords, I only received my noble Friend's note a short time ago, and have made what inquiry I could. With respect to the Returns of the Land Commission, further Returns are already on the Table, and will be printed in a few days. As to the Returns relating to the operations under the Arrears Act, the officials are so hardly pressed in order to got through that work that it would be very hard upon them and very disadvantageous to all the interests concerned if they were required just now to prepare those Returns. I think that is the appeal they would make, and it is one that will commend itself to the noble Lord. As soon as possible full Returns on that subject shall be presented.

MEDICAL ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
(The Lord Carlingford.)
MEDICAL ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

  (NO. 16.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL), in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, he had to ask their Lordships to consider a Bill relating to the important subject of the system of medical education and registration throughout the country. The question had been long before Parliament and the country, and before the Medical Profession itself, and it was generally agreed that it ought, if possible, to be settled by legislation. He did not know whether he should be more fortunate than his Predecessors who had attempted to deal with the subject; but he would, at all events, have the advantage of the strong feeling of the Profession in his favour, as well as the Report of the Royal Commission which had been appointed by the present Government to consider this subject. That Commission, presided over by his noble Friend behind him (the Earl of Camperdown), was composed of a number of eminent men, who took a large amount of important evidence, and whose names he need not trouble the House with except one, that of the great Judge whom the country had just lost, Sir George Jessel, who took a keen interest in the inquiry, and was a party to the recommendations of the Commission. He need not remind their Lordships of what had already happened in regard to this subject. The Act which now regulated the Medical Profession was that of 1858, a very important and useful Act, but before many years had passed it was felt that the system it adopted was a very imperfect one and that some improvement was necessary. A Bill was accordingly introduced by Lord Ripon, which passed their Lordships' House, but failed to pass the House of Commons in consequence of one particular question which he hoped would not now be a matter of serious difficulty—the direct representation of the Medical Profession upon the Medical Council. The subject was afterwards taken up by the Duke of Richmond in 1878, but with the same result. A similar Bill was introduced in 1879, and referred to a Select Committee of the House of Commons which obtained a great deal of evidence on the subject; but in 1880 legislation was stopped by the Dissolution which then took place. Since that time a Royal Commission had been appointed, and their Report was before

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  the House. Under those circumstances, it was clearly the duty of the Government to endeavour to deal with the question upon the lines of the Report, so far as it commended itself to their judgment, and in that way the Bill had been framed. There were many important matters treated by the Bill; but now, as heretofore, the great evil to be dealt with by legislation lay in the fact of the multiplicity and variety and uncertainty, and often the insufficiency, of medical licences, which admitted men upon the Medical Register with all the rights of practising, there by causing a want of security to the public that every man so admitted should be ascertained to be competent before he was allowed to deal with their lives and limbs as a medical man. That great evil was universally recognized, and the only mode of effectively dealing with it appeared to them, as it had to their Predecessors and to the Royal Commission, to be the constitution in each of the three Divisions of the United Kingdom of a Board, consisting of members of the present licensing bodies, which Board alone should have the right of testifying to the competence of those who were to have the legal right to practise. It might be convenient to the House for him to state in outline the provisions of the Bill. The Bill provided, first, that any person, male or female, passing the final examination, and no other persons, with certain exceptions, would be entitled to be placed upon the Register, or be allowed to practice. For the purpose of holding these examinations, and for educational purposes, the Bill constituted a Medical Board in England, Scotland, and Ireland respectively. The plan was, in fact, that known as the Conjoint Boards plan. The Bill provided that each of these Medical Boards should frame schemes, not only for the final examination, but for the previous qualification and training of the candidates, both in general and professional knowledge, and that these schemes should come into effect when they had received the approval of the Medical Council and the Privy Council. The Bill also provided that the Boards should aim at a uniform standard and uniform conditions, though he confessed that upon that point the words of the Bill were not so clear as he could desire; but he entirely recognized the importance of the matters, and would take care to secure that the three Medical Boards should, so far as
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  possible, secure uniformity in all essential matters. Then, the Bill, as to the Medical Council, proposed to enlarge its powers and importance, improve its constitution, and lessen its numbers, which in itself was a matter of no small importance. It was proposed to form it in the following manner. There would be six nominees of the Crown, eight members chosen by the Medical Boards, and four members elected by the general body of medical practitioners of the United Kingdom. The Council would be renewed every five years, and its duties would be to inquire into the efficiency of the examinations conducted by the Medical Boards, and to exercise a general superintendence over those Boards. The next part of the Bill referred to medical education, and required the Board of each Division, not only to conduct the final examinations, but to take care that there had been a sufficient training and curriculum pursued by the candidates. All that was carried out would have to be done under the sanction of the Medical Council and the Privy Council. The third part dealt with the question of Colonial practitioners, which had long been in abeyance, but which it was very desirable to settle. For that purpose, the Council, at its discretion, would be enabled to recognize any sufficient Colonial or foreign qualification. He trusted the result of that would be that our countrymen in the Colonies and in foreign parts would obtain a favourable reciprocity instead of that unfavourable reciprocity to which they were now exposed by our own inhospitable conduct. The fourth part referred to the question of medical titles, which was a thorny question, on which he had no doubt a great deal might be said in Committee. It was, at all events, necessary that there should be some method for preventing the assumption of fraudulent and deceiving titles by persons who had in reality no right to them; and the next part of the measure referred to expenses and fees, which was likewise a subject of very considerable difficulty. The rest of the Bill consisted of details as to procedure with which he need not trouble the House. There were only two or three essential points on which he need dwell a little further. The first was the constitution, powers, and functions of the Medical Council, which they hoped to make more important and

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  useful than it had ever yet been. One change would be the admission in a moderate form of the direct representation of the whole body of the medical practitioners of the country. That was the subject of an old controversy waged fiercely for some years; but it was now nearly extinct. He agreed with the Report, that the whole body of the Profestion should have some direct connection with the Council. The next change proposed by the Bill in the constitution of the Medical Council was that the members upon that Council, representing or derived from the medical licensing authorities, should not be directly chosen one by one by each of these authorities, but should be chosen by the Medical Board of each Division of the United Kingdom, these Boards comprising representatives of these authorities. There was a great weight of evidence before the Royal Commission in favour of that course. Most important evidence was given to show that it would be better for the authority and independence of the Central Council that the members coming from these quarters should be chosen in the way the Bill proposed. In that way the Council would be best able to perform its functions, one of which would be to stand between these medical bodies and the public. Another reason was that the Council was too large already, and that, without some such change, the tendency would be to enlarge its numbers in the future. One way of avoiding a multiplicity of members lay in the very inconvenient plan of grafting two bodies together for the purpose of representation. That plan had been tried in Scotland, but with very unsatisfactory results. It might be known to their Lordships that four Scottish Universities were grouped together in couples at this moment in the representation upon the Medical Council, and that nothing could be more unsatisfactory than the way in which that system worked. He thought the House would consider that an important body like the Edinburgh University, for instance, ought not to be coupled with any other body for that purpose. Then we came to the Medical Boards. They were, in fact, the Conjoint Boards which had been over and over again recommended by the highest medical authorities in the country. The only serious difficulty which would arise was as to the proportionate numbers
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  of the representatives of the different medical authorities upon these Boards. This was an important matter, and many statements that appeared to him to have great weight had been made upon the subject, and ample time would be given, before the Committee, of considering them. The duty of the Medical Boards under the Bill was one which, he was bound to say, was the very essence of the Bill—namely, the obtaining in each country, under the superintendence of the Medical Council, one common examination for admission to the Medical Register. He looked upon this, and he thought the House would agree with him, as the essence of the Bill, because their Lordships had already adopted three Bills containing that principle, and it had, moreover, been strongly supported by the Report of the Royal Commission. He knew that objections had been made to it, and that these objections came from some of the very best medical authorities in the land—namely, the Universities of Scotland and of Ireland. He asked these bodies to assist in attaining the common end that was in view. He should like to point out to them that their objections were of a vital kind, and would, if persisted in, make it impossible for any measure to be passed, because, if once exceptions were made in their favour, it would be idle to require the other medical bodies to come into a joint scheme. For the interest of the public generally, it would be necessary that the assent of these distinguished bodies should be obtained; and he might remark that the plan of a single common examination had been some time since adopted by all the medical authorities of England, and by a majority of the Irish authorities. The Universities of Scotland were favourable to the plan so far as it concerned the Medical Corporations of Scotland, although they refused it for themselves; but all these plans had necessarily and inevitably come to nothing, because there was no power of enforcing them and carrying them out throughout the United Kingdom, without which the thing was im-impossible. Another question was affiliation, and that was a matter of no little difficulty. There was no provision for compulsory affiliation to the medical bodies in the Bill of Lord Ripon, nor was there any such provisions in the first

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  Bill of the Duke of Richmond as it left their Lordships' House. In the second Bill of the Duke of Richmond there was a provision requiring affiliation to some one or other of the medical bodies. The Royal Commission had, however, given its opinion against that plan, as not being advisable or necessary, and the present Bill was based upon that view. The Report said that the absence from the Bill of a system of compulsory affiliation would not seriously affect the medical bodies, or, at least, the best, the most important, and the most useful of them. The Royal Commission was of opinion that young medical men would feel it to be their interest to attach themselves to those medical authorities which had a high reputation, and especially to those which were able to afford a good medical education. It was a matter not without difficulty, but one which was not of the essence of the measure, and he would be very ready to consider any proposals made on the subject before the next stage of the Bill, with the hope of being able to deal with it in a satisfactory way. As to the teaching bodies, he did not see it could make any difference to them, because, under the stringent rules which would regulate the new examination, their value would be greater than ever they had been before. The Bill contained a great many points which could not be fully gone into at that stage. It was highly expedient that the question, if possible, should now be settled. Four years ago the Medical Council adopted a resolution, which certainly had as much force now as it had then, to the effect—
  "That the continued uncertainty of legislation retards the improvement of medical education, and is contrary to the interests of the profession and the public."
  And that was perfectly true. The public was largely interested in the present measure; and in asking the House to grant the second reading, he did so feeling that all who engaged the services of medical men should have full security that they were competent to discharge the important duties that devolved upon them.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Lord Carlingford.)
  THE EARL OF ABERDEENsaid, that up to the present time very little had been heard of the presentations of Peti-
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  tions against, and of objections made to, the Bill; but that might be accounted for by the fact that it was not printed until early in March, and that the public could not get copies until the 15th of that month. There had accordingly been very little time given for the formulation of opinions, and for representations to the House. He observed that Petitions from the Royal College of Surgeons in England, and also from that in Ireland, had been presented, objecting to certain propositions in the Bill. He was aware that in Scotland there was a good deal of feeling to the same effect. He need only refer to the Scottish Schools of Medicine, which were very important, and especially that of Edinburgh, which was the most important. He had received a telegram from the Principal of the University of Aberdeen, in which he stated his conviction that there was a unanimous feeling on the part of the Governing Body of that University that considerable amendments in the measure were necessary before the Bill was allowed to become law. Reference had been made to the Report of the Royal Commission; but he would remind the noble Lord who had made that reference that the Commission was not unanimous. For his own part, he did not claim extended acquaintance with the Bill, but he thought the final examination under the Bill was open to some objections; it would include that species of examination called the clinical examination, a process which might be called a form of vivisection of the human frame, and, considering the length of time which that part took, it was quite clear that, unless some special provision were made, considerable inconvenience would arise. He was glad of the statement that the Committee would not meet for a fortnight, as in the meantime there would be plenty of opportunity for those who were interested to make representations as to the Bill, which was certainly a most important one.
  THE EARL OF MILLTOWNsaid, that though the Bill proposed to sweep away certain rights and powers, without any compensation, which had been exercised for the benefit of the public for more than 100 years, they were so much accustomed of late years in Ireland to that species of legislation that they hardly ventured to complain on that ground; but there were certain points

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  which the Irish College of Surgeons wished to impress upon their Lordships, the first of which was uniformity of education. The noble Lord (Lord Carlingford) had intimated that that was extremely desirable; but there were some clauses in the Bill which were totally inconsistent with it—notably Clause 20. The next question with which the Irish Colleges dealt was that of affiliation, which was a question of considerable importance and which would obviate some of the difficulties which appeared on the face of the Bill. It was very desirable that some Body should exercise a controlling power over medical practitioners, such as that exercised by the Benches of the Ions of Court over the Bar. A third point taken by the Irish Colleges was the disposition of the surplus fund, for which no provision had teen made in the Bill; and another grievance was the annual registration of all practitioners, which was unnecessary and vexatious, and would apply to some 35,000 medical men who had paid to be put upon the Register, and were yet now asked to pay a yearly sum to be allowed to remain on the Register. He also objected to the admission of laymen to the Medical Board, as proposed by the Bill, and did not think that Apothecaries' Hall, which was a trading institution merely, was entitled to representation; and he ventured to suggest that that vote should be given to the great University of Dublin. He might add that Clause 47 appeared to him to involve an illegal interference with the rights of the Colonial Legislatures, and would, if persevered with, lead to considerable difficulties.
  EARL CAIRNSsaid, he was disposed to hope, with the Lord President, that the Bill, with necessary modification, would pass into law, because bethought it dealt with a subject upon which public opinion had been maturing for some time, and especially since the Report of the Royal Commission. All would agree that nothing could be worse than that, in place of uniformity of education and qualification, there should be competition, not to give the best education, but to secure the greatest number of students. The main object of the Bill, he understood, was to prevent that result. There were one or two provisions which might appear at first sight to be matters of detail, but which in reality went to
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  the root of the Bill, and he wished to call attention to it as it would in its present form affect University education in Ireland. Medical education in Ireland and Scotland differed, as their Lordships were aware, from that of England. As compared with Ireland and Scotland, only a comparatively small number of English graduates entered the Medical Profession—in Ireland the number was very large. Speaking in round figures, during the past five years 40 or 50 per cent of those on the Medical Register in Ireland and Scotland took their position in respect of their University education. They did not come upon the Register with their medical qualification alone, but with the proof that they had a thorough general education. Nothing, he thought, would be further from their Lordships' wish than to injure a system which had been productive of such excellent results. The Bill in one sense took away a considerable amount of the protection which the Universities had. At present the Irish and Scotch Universities were able to give a medical degree which entitled the person who received it at once to come upon the Register as a practitioner, and the Bill proposed that the practitioner should not come upon the Register until he had undergone an examination by the Medical Board. That was an enormous sacrifice to call upon the Universities to make, and they might well say in surrendering their authority that care should be taken that no unnecessary injustice should be done to them. There was one thing, and only one, which would keep the Universities in the position which they would sacrifice, and that was by giving them a strong position on the Medical Board; otherwise University education would be put under the control of persons outside the medical bodies. He could not help thinking there had been an oversight in another respect. As the Bill stood the Universities of Ireland were in a perfectly different position from those of England and Scotland. What was the power which the English Universities had on the English Board? There were 15 members on the English Board, and the Universities had eight out of the 15, and, therefore, the Universities had a preponderating influence on that Board. The Scotch Board had 11 members, and out of the 11 the Universities had eight

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  —three for Edinburgh, two for Glasgow, two for Aberdeen, and one for the University of St. Andrews. The Irish Board, however, like the Scotch, consisted of 11 members, but the Universities had only four out of the 11. Surely that must be a mistake. Now, it had been strongly urged by the Scottish Universities that an exception should be made in their favour with regard to the final examination, and that such examination should be made a University examination, and that it should give a title to students to be placed on the Register. The Report said—
  "We cannot make any exception in the case of Scotland. It must not be supposed that we are transferring power to a central authority where they will have no share. On the Scottish Board the Scottish Universities will receive a preponderating influence, and send the majority of the members."
  The Irishmen, it appeared, were more moderate than the Scotch, for they did not ask for more than a bare majority, and that was a proposal which might very well be agreed to. He observed in page 5 of the Bill that there were three very important sub-sections, the effect of which would be to hand over the composition of the Board in the future, however much they were satisfied with its original composition, not to any body over which Parliament had any control, but in reality to the Executive Council for the time being. Therefore, a fear was justly entertained that the Government of the day would be able to make any arrangement they liked as to the number of bodies represented. He did not mean to suggest that it was improper to have some means for altering the hard-and-fast line now drawn; but it was obvious that that should be done by an Order in Council in the ordinary way, and certainly not in the manner suggested in the Bill. Subject to these alterations he should have no objection to the Bill; but he could not say that he should be glad to see it pass into law in its present form.
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOKsaid, he desired to call attention to a penal enactment of a very severe kind on an ex post facto offence which the Bill contained, and which seemed to him to be wrong in principle. The Bill proposed, under a penalty of £20, to prohibit the use of foreign medical titles. It was no uncommon thing, as he understood, for prac-
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  titioners possessing the licence of the College of Physicians or the College of Surgeons to take a degree from some foreign University, and frequently it was only given after severe examination. It might be quite right not to permit any person to register the title of Doctor thus obtained; but it was rather a strong measure to put a penalty for using it on one who had been in practice under the title for years. It would simply mean that they should say to their friends and patients—"You must not call me Doctor any longer, or I shall be liable to a penalty of £20."
  LORD BALFOURsaid, he wished to remind the House of the important effects this measure was likely to have upon the Scottish Universities. The noble Lord (Lord Carlingford) appeared to think that if those Universities were not in a state of perfect security, they were in at least as good a position as they had a right to expect under this Bill. He need scarcely explain to their Lordships how great the interests of the Scottish Universities were in this matter. The fame of the Scottish medical schools was known all over the world, and at the present moment nearly 3,000 students were undergoing a course of study in medicine in those institutions. Charges had been made against various Licensing Bodies, whose degrees entitled gentlemen to be placed on the Register as medical practitioners; but whatever charges might be made against other bodies, he was quite sure that they could not be preferred against the Scottish Universities. The practice of giving diplomas for one of the three great branches of medical science was almost, if not entirely, unknown to them, and was now absolutely prevented. No one who took a degree in Surgery or in Medicine in any of the Scottish Universities could get that degree without undergoing a satisfactory examination in all the branches of medical science. The noble Lord, in introducing the Bill, spoke of what the Scottish Universities were asked to give up as a mere sacrifice of feeling. He wished to show that the sacrifice involved something far more material than feeling, and he was sure their Lordships would agree with this, that even if some of the Licensing Bodies had committed errors in the past, it was not fair to strip those which were not guilty of the rights and privileges which they now enjoyed. It was not

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  correct to say that the Report of the Royal Commission was unanimous. Two or three of those who were best qualified to judge dissented from some of its principal recommendations. Professor Huxley considered there was no justification for Parliament to strip the Scottish Universities of those rights and privileges, which it could be shown they had used wisely and well. Mr. Bryce, a Member of the other House of Parliament, also considered that it would be a serious misfortune, not only to Scotland, but to the whole country, if anything were done to interfere with the efficiency of those Universities by cramping the teaching. The only reference to these opinions in the main body of the Report was a passage acknowledging what the Scottish Universities had done for medical teaching and examination, and stating that the Commission would hesitate to make any recommendations that in their belief would interfere in any way with their prosperity. It was a very different thing to require a concession from the English Universities which gave degrees to about 50 medical students in the course of a year, and to require such a concession from Universities which this year comprised 3,000 students. The noble and learned Earl on the Front Bench below (Earl Cairns) appeared to think that the Scottish Universities had their interests perfectly guarded by the constitution of the Medical Board. It was no doubt the case that on that Board the Universities placed eight Representatives out of 11; but it should be remembered that the Medical Board was not supreme in these matters. The Medical Board of Scotland was entirely under the control of the Medical Council for the whole Kingdom. It was tied hand-and-foot to the Medical Council in every department. Its examinations were entirely under the control of the Medical Council, as were also the medical titles. And yet on that Council there were only three or four Scottish representatives. It was perfectly absurd to say that the interests of the Scottish Universities were safeguarded by the mere provision of their sending representatives to the Medical Board. He wished to allude to the very suspicious provisions, to which also the noble and learned Earl (Earl Cairns) had alluded, with regard to the enormous powers given to the Privy
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  Council to alter the main provisions of this Act. If it were the case that Scottish Universities must give up those rights which they had hitherto enjoyed, he certainly thought that their Lordships ought to say that those interests, when given up, should not be wholly sacrificed, and that they should have some better safeguard than was at present provided for them in the Bill. The Bill would have the effect of providing an examination which would qualify for a place on the Register, under the guidance and sanction of the Privy Council, and this being the only examination which would qualify for a place on the Register, it would necessarily be of the nature of a minimum. It would minimize the demand made on those who wanted to practise in medicine. He should be very much afraid that a position on the Register being acquired by this minimum, very few indeed would be induced to take the University degrees as they now did. The result would therefore be that, instead of raising the merit and qualifications of the general practitioners throughout the country, this degree of Licentiate of the Medical Council would actually lower the general standard of medical practitioners all over the country. Then the interests of the Scottish Universities would be entirely handed over to the Medical Council with regard to another point. There was no assurance given that the very highest degrees given by the Universities in Scotland would be regarded by the Medical Council as what were called "higher titles." All medical schools were to be at the mercy of the Medical Council; and he, for one, looked with the greatest possible jealousy upon such a provision as that. It would have been very satisfactory to their Lordships if the noble Lord had indicated what would be the nature of the new examination. Was it to be in addition to the present one? If so, he would like to ask if the noble Lord contemplated that it would be an examination in all departments in which degree examinations were now held? If so, it would embrace an examination in clinical surgery. That examination at present, in all the Scottish Universities, occupied some weeks. In the University of Edinburgh the examination of the large number of students sometimes extended over as long a period as two months. He

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  asked their Lordships how it was possible to establish a duplicate of those examinations? In the first place, the appliances at the command of the Medical Council and the Medical Board in Scotland would be totally insufficient for any such purpose. It would be quite impossible to conduct a second clinical examination, and the result would be that this examination for the Licentiate of the Medical Council would be a mere examination in book-learning, and would not command the respect which the Degree examinations did at present. On the other hand, if it was contemplated that the new examination was to be an examination in all departments, the same as the one now existing, the cost to the students would be most serious, and would present a most serious bar to many of the poorer men. He considered this additional examination was quite unnecessary, and suggested that the Government should revert to a proposal which was made on a former occasion, and which provided that the Medical Council should, instead of holding an examination of their own, appoint Inspectors or additional Examiners to sit along with the Examiners, and carry out both the purposes which the Government had in view. This would be quite as satisfactory as the proposals of the Government, and would have the effect of causing little or no injury whatever to the interests of the Universities. He sincerely hoped that this view would receive the attention and consideration of Her Majesty's Government. He felt he could not say enough to impress upon their Lordships the magnitude of the interests involved. If the Bill were to pass in anything like its present form, it would in no sense involve a sacrifice of feeling, but would involve a sacrifice of the very highest privileges now in the possession of the Scottish Universities.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, that on his own account as Chairman of the Royal Commission which recently sat on this subject, and on behalf of his fellow-Commissioners, he fully endorsed the observations of the Lord President of the Council as to the invaluable assistance given by the late Master of the Rolls, Sir George Jessel. Notwithstanding the pressure of his judicial duties, he (Sir George Jessel) had never failed to attend the meetings of the Commis-
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  sion, and he regretted the great loss the country had sustained by his death. He was committing no breach of confidence when he asserted that the decisions of the Commission met with his unqualified approval. He hoped this Bill would prove a successful attempt to deal with a question which had perplexed so many Governments. The unsatisfactory position of medical licensing was universally recognized. When the Government of the day gave up the question in despair, it was taken up by the medical authorities, who brought it forward again. There was one still stronger reason why it was impossible to leave this question alone, and that was at the present time new Universities were coming into existence, of which the Victoria University was the most notable instance. They were claiming to give medical degrees, and they would claim representation on the Medical Council. It was, indeed, difficult to see in the circumstances how the present system was to be defended. They must either allow the number of licensing authorities to be increased indefinitely, or else they must make up their minds to restrict the number. This Bill proposed the second method. He denied that the creation of the Board was a step in the direction of centralization. There would be, for one change, the introduction to the Council of representatives of the general body of the Profession. As to the Scotch Universities, it was quite impossible to grant what was asked for without giving up the principle of the Bill; and it was not to be supposed that if the Scotch Universities insisted on their claims, Ireland and England would not put forward similar demands. He might understand it if the practice was limited to Scotland, but some years ago the Scotch Profession was placed in the same position as the English and Irish. As a Scotchman, he would not ask for anything that would injure the Universities of his own country. The influence of the Universities on the Board would be of a preponderating character.
  LORD BALFOUR: But not on the Council.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, he was sure the House would not think the eminent men who formed the Royal Commission had combined together for the purpose of degrading the Scottish Universities. Throughout the proceed-

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  ings of the Commission, they had only one desire, which was to be strictly fair and impartial between all these important interests, and he looked forward with some confidence to the pasing of a measure which would lull to sleep, at least for some time, this much-vexed question.
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)asked the noble Lord opposite (Lord Balfour), who had spoken for the Scotch Universities, to consider before the Committee was reached whether there there was a shadow of foundation for the fears he expressed. He could assure the noble Lord that such fears were groundless. As to degrees obtained abroad, he intended to propose a clause in the Bill which would have the effect of not interfering with qualifications under which persons were legally practising at the time of the passing of the measure.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday the 19 th instant.

ISLAND OF CYPRUS—THE CURRENCY PROCLAMATION OF 3RD MAY, 1882.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY, in calling the attention of the House to the proclamation of the 3rd May, 1882, respecting the currency of the Island of Cyprus and to the exportation of silver coin notwithstanding the deficiency of it in this country, said, by a proclamation dated the 3rd of May last year a certain value was given to English silver coins, as compared with silver Medjidieh piastres, which were the currency of Cyprus, and in which the accounts for revenue and taxation were kept. English silver had been taken out to Cyprus when the British authorities first took possession of the Island, and according to a statement in Mr. Hepworth Dixon's book one of the British officers, charged with announcing to the inhabitants the transfer of the Island, had acted like the "Man in the Moon" at a borough election, and had brought bags of English silver coin for distribution. Since that English silver had been sent at various times to Cyprus for the payment of the English troops. He objected to this exportation of English silver coin, and to the proclamation on three grounds. First,
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  because English silver coin was a debased coinage, intended only for small change, and not, like French silver coin, a standard of value, and the introduction of it in large quantities into Cyprus, and by that means into the Levant, must disturb the markets and cause loss eventually to various persons. These English coins were made to bear a fictitious value in Cyprus, which would not follow them into the Levant, and whilst the French and other European silver coins could be used by silversmiths, these English coins could not be used for that purpose. A friend of his had told him that he had obtained 23 s. for a sovereign in Ceylon; and if the number of shillings had been as great there, as it would be in Cyprus, the difference of exchange would probably be greater. Ceylon might also claim that the example of Cyprus should be followed, and a similar proclamation issued for Ceylon. The second objection was that as the currency of the Island consisted of silver piastres, and the accounts were kept in piastres, the more natural course to have adopted, if more small change was required, would have been to have asked leave of the Porte and to have coined a supply of silver piastres of the same value and standard as the good silver piastres. By doing that no disturbance would have been effected in the monetary circulation of Cyprus and the adjoining ports, and at the same time a complimentary and friendly act would have been done, which would have been highly appreciated by the Sublime Porte: and such a course would have been more in accordance with what was lawful under the circumstances of our tenure of Cyprus. Lastly, there was little doubt that for a long time there had been a scarcity of silver coin in this country, and the people of this country, who were suffering from the want of small change, had a right to complain if their wants were disregarded for the purpose of supplying the wants of a new dependency; and if it should prove, as he feared, that this introduction of English silver coin into Cyprus was an injury to the Cypriotes, they would bear with less patience having so long to wait for that increased issue of silver change which the increase of population had made necessary. Perhaps the Government would state what amount per head of population of silver coinage was allowed for in this country

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  when the annual accounts were published.
  THE EARL OF DERBYsaid, he could not admit that British silver passed at a fictitious value in Cyprus. He believed, on the other hand, that the proclamation to which his noble Friend objected had been issued on a careful calculation of the relative value of the various coins used in the Island; and it contained a statement of the rate at which the piastre would be taken in comparison with the English coin. The proclamation dealt with a question the difficulty of which was much enhanced by the fluctuating value of the coin previously current in Cyprus. His noble Friend had suggested the desirability of maintaining the native currency of piastres; but he would perceive, if he read the proclamation, that the piastre, which was taken at the rate of 180 to the pound sterling, was the basis of the new arrangement. As far as he was aware there was no special convenience in keeping the accounts of the Island in piastres rather than in pounds and shillings. His noble Friend could hardly be serious in his complaint that the exportation of silver to Cyprus had inflicted any inconvenience on England. The amount exported, which was not more than £40,000 or £50,000, was in no way adequate to produce such a result; and though last year there might have been a deficiency of silver in consequence of the temporary suspension of work at the Mint, the issue of silver had now for some months been resumed.

ARMY—LINE BATTALIONS—TRAINING OF MEN AS MOUNTED INFANTRY.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  VISCOUNT ST. VINCENTasked the Under Secretary of State for War, Whether, in view of recent experience, it is proposed to take any steps to inquire into the advisability of giving officers in command of some of our Line battalions an opportunity of having a small proportion of their men taught, in peace, the work that, as Mounted Infantry, they would have to do in war. The utility of Mounted Infantry in the general operations of war had been proved by the experience of the late campaigns, which showed that the services rendered by them could not lo performed either
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  by Infantry or Cavalry. He might remind the House that the Boers of the Transvaal were a fine example—probably the finest in the world—of Mounted Infantry. We could not expect so much from our own Infantry, who could not be constantly in the saddle as the Boers were; but it was to be hoped that something more than an inconsiderable fraction of our men might be formed into an efficient force of Mounted Infantry by proper training in time of peace.
  LORD CHELMSFORDsaid, he regretted that the House was so thinly attended when a question was being discussed to which recent wars had given importance and prominence. Considering that Mounted Infantry was a recognized arm in modern warfare, it could not be right that England should not possess a body of mounted men trained at home and capable of being despatched on foreign service at short notice. He hoped to hear from the noble Earl the Under Secretary of State for War that the subject was being considered by the War Office, and that it was intended to give systematic instruction in the duties of a Mounted Infantry soldier. In his opinion, however, it was not desirable to give this instruction to mere recruits, but to train for this purpose men of at least three years' service, after making them expert marksmen. It would be useless, he thought, only to have a depot; but if 60 or 80 Mounted Infantry could be permanently stationed at, say Aldershot, to take part in all the manœuvres there, there would be opportunities for developing that nucleus into a really efficient Force.
  THE EARL OF MORLEYsaid, he shared in the regret expressed by the noble and gallant Lord who had just sat down, at the small attendance of noble Lords interested in this question. The employment of Mounted Infantry was a subject on which the noble and gallant Viscount (Viscount St. Vincent), from his experience in more than one campaign, was peculiarly qualified to express an opinion. It was generally admitted to be undesirable to keep up permanently a body of Mounted Infantry in this country, because such a force would inevitably, sooner or later, be turned into Cavalry. Some such scheme as that of the noble and gallant Viscount, which would probably have a better result, had for some time been under the considera-

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  tion of the authorities, and arrangements had been made for the equipment of such a Corps when it was needed. He could only assure the House that the authorities were quite alive to the importance of the subject, the services performed by Mounted Infantry in South Africa having brought the whole question prominently before their notice.

  TITHE RENTCHARGE BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the Law as to Tithe Rentcharge—Was presented by The Earl STANHOPE; read 1a. (No. 22.)
  House adjourned at a quarter before Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.