MOTION. (Hansard, 22 May 1882)

LORD STRATHEDEN AND CAMPBELL
, who had given Notice of his intention to "call attention to the Ministerial position;" and to move for further correspondence upon Egypt, said, that he had proposed to address the House at some length upon the Notice he had given; but he well knew that after the long and unexpected time absorbed in legislative Business it would be impossible to do so. He would, however, take the opportunity of referring for a moment to the state of Egypt. The House had seen the Ottoman despatch upon the naval movement of the Western Powers. The variance with the Western Powers it displayed might lead to the impression that some further measure would be necessary. Having given long attention to the subject, he would hazard the opinion that military occupation would only be admissible, if carried out by the Ottoman Empire. The Western Powers seemed inclined to that view, and it agreed with the language which a noble Marquess on the other side (the Marquess of Salisbury) had recently made use of. It was not only that such an occupation would be less unauthorized than any other. It would be far more easy to control it and to limit it. It would be controlled by the influence of the Western Powers at Cairo. It would be controlled by the influence of Germany at Constantinople. The difficulty of every military occupation was to restrict it to the aim and to the period which had been originally contemplated. An occupation wholly un- 1242 attended by the hazard of surviving its true object ought to recommend itself; and, all the more, when it was the only one which could be upheld as authorized and regular. As the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Earl Granville) might wish to make some declaration upon Egypt, he would now move for further correspondence with regard to it.

§ EARL GRANVILLE
My Lords, some time before Easter a Notice appeared in your Lordships' Minutes, to call the attention of the House to the Ministerial position, and to move for a Return. M. Thiers, the late President of the French Republic, when appointed Minister of the Interior under Louis Philippe, revisited his native place, and called on the old schoolmaster and asked him whether he knew him? The old schoolmaster said he did not. "Do you not remember the little Adolphe?" asked M. Thiers. "Oh!" said he, "you were the little boy that was always playing tricks. What are you now?" "I am a Minister," answered M. Thiers. "Why, you don't mean to say that you have become a Protestant!" exclaimed the schoolmaster. When I read the Notice I do not go the length of saying I thought it referred to a minister of the Established Church or of the great Nonconformist Body; but I was absolutely in the dark as to what was the intention of the noble Lord. There is one day—the first day of the Session—a terrible day for the Government, one on which they are expected, more or less, to explain anything they may have done during the Recess; but afterwards, according to Parliamentary tactics, and the courtesy of Parties, some indication is generally given of any question or attack about to be made. For several days this sword of Damocles was held over our heads; but it was always silently and suddenly withdrawn a day or two before the day for which it was fixed. After Easter, however, the Notice suddenly reappeared; but although it was changed, it was not in a shape that made it much clearer. The only alteration was that the intention to move for a Return was omitted. The House adjourned on the day fixed, and the Motion did not come 1243 on, and then the Notice re-appeared with a specific allusion to Egyptian Papers. This, of course, gave a sort of inkling of the intention of the noble Lord, though I can hardly understand what it had to do with the position of the Ministry in general. The Notice is one which is really no Notice at all. It does not disclose the object in view, and it does not seem to indicate the subject on which the noble Lord would speak. The Motion stood in that form for several weeks. I had, in reply to the noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Salisbury), to address to your Lordships last week a statement with regard to the position of Egyptian affairs. That statement the noble Marquess opposite was good enough to say did not appear to be altogether unsatisfactory; and he expressed strongly an opinion, in which your Lordships seemed to agree, that this question of Egypt was one of extreme importance and delicacy, and one in regard to which it was desired not in any degree to embarrass the Government. This seemed to strike my noble Friend too, for he withdrew his Motion; but in a few days it re-appeared in exactly the same form. I am very anxious to give your Lordships information about Egypt. I gave you a perfectly accurate statement of the position the other day, and I should like now to give your Lordships more information, and particularly to dispel various conflicting rumours which are going about; but I think it would not be for the public advantage for me at this moment to go further into the matter, and I must, therefore, decline to agree to the Motion.

LORD STRATHEDEN AND CAMPBELL
said, as there was still a Motion before the House, he might be expected to answer for a moment some of the remarks the noble Earl (Earl Granville) had offered. It might be satisfactory to learn that the troubled aspect of events in various directions inspired the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs with nothing but unlimited hilarity. The House might well have exclaimed as he went along, in a well known phrase—Quam facetum Consulem habemus. The noble Earl objected greatly to the term "Ministerial" as ambiguous. He (Lord Stratheden and Campbell) would not contend that it could never be employed in different senses. In an hotel abroad, some years ago, where the Leader of 1244 the Opposition in this country had been passing, the question was referred to him (Lord Stratheden and Campbell) whether such a personage ought to be entered in the books of the police as a Minister of State or a minister of religion. Amongst ourselves long consecrated usage in Parliamentary proceedings might relieve the noble Earl from any doubt as to what was meant by "Ministerial." As to what could he said against the present Ministerial position, it was probable that the noble Earl would have, after Whitsuntide, sufficient opportunities of learning. He would, in deference to what had been said by the noble Earl, withdraw the Motion.