Lords Sitting of 30 March 1882

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Elementary Education Provisional Orders Confirmation (West Ham, &c.)* (55); Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (London)* (56); Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (Ballymena, &c.)* (57); Duke of Albany (Establishment)* (58).
REPRESENTATIVE PEERS OF IRELAND.
THE LORD CHANCELLORacquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had received (by post) from the Clerk of the Crown and Hanaper in Ireland (pursuant to order of Monday last) Return respecting the election of Representative Peers of Ireland: Ordered That the said Return be printed. (No. 54.)
SOUTH AFRICA—BASUTOLAND.

  QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT BURY: Seeing my noble Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies in his place, I wish to ask whether he has received any confirmation of the telegram which has appeared in the morning papers?
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: My Lords, in reply to the Question asked by my noble Friend opposite, I have to say that Her Majesty's Government have received intelligence on the subject. I will read a telegram received at the Colonial Office from Sir Hercules Robinson, dated the 28th of March. It is as follows:—

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  "The Premier announced last night in House Basuto policy determined on by Government. It is briefly this:—That there shall be no abandonment under any circumstances; that there shall be no renewal of the war, nor confiscation, except as a last resource; that the disarmament proclamation shall be forthwith repealed; and that a Commission shall be appointed to assess the injury done to loyals and traders, and to pay for it in money; that Commission will also inquire into and report on the advisability of establishing local self-government, and as to propriety of giving the people some measure of representation in Parliament. "With these concessions, and an efficient police, it is hoped disaffection may be subdued and law and order gradually re-established throughout the whole of Basutoland."
  I have to add that Her Majesty's Government have received with much satisfaction this intelligence, in the hope that it will put an end to the difficulties in that country.

  PRIVATE AND PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILLS.
  Ordered, That Standing Orders Nos. 92. and 93. be suspended; and that the time for depositing petitions praying to be heard against Private and Provisional Order Confirmation Bills, which would otherwise expire during the adjournment of the House at Easter, be extended to the first day on which the House shall sit after the recess.
POLICE PROTECTION (IRELAND).

  MOTION FOR PAPERS.
  THE EARL OF COURTOWN, in rising to move for the Correspondence between the Irish Executive and the Director of the Property Defence Association on the subject of police protection to caretakers, said, in moving for these Papers, his main object was to justify the Property Defence Association publicly in the steps which they had taken. He thought this was more especially necessary if it should turn out, as he thought very likely, seeing that many of the peasantry were armed, that some of the men employed by the Property Defence Association should lose their lives in the discharge of their duty. Some time ago, when the Property Defence Association asked for protection, the Government not only granted it, but promised to give them full protection, and even tried to persuade them from arming their men with pistols; but now, as the Correspondence would show, they were encouraged to arm their men, and, of course, arming men meant that they were to use their arms. Captain Maxwell, the Director of the Association,
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  had solemnly warned the Government of the responsibility they would incur should a collision arise between the men in their employment and the inhabitants of the districts in which they were called upon to perform, not only the simple duty of caretakers, but also to use firearms in case of need. On a former occasion he (the Earl of Courtown) had expressed strongly his sense of the responsibility that devolved upon the Property Defence Association in consequence of that policy of the Government. However, he was glad to see that since the intention to remove police protection from caretakers and houses was first announced, that intention had been to a certain extent modified, and that protection would be afforded in certain cases. An understanding had been arrived at that should protection be withdrawn from houses a notice would be given to the Director of the Property Defence Association. But that arrangement did not always work satisfactorily, for information had lately reached him that in one case where notice was served that the police protection of a house would be removed, the County Inspector would not wait for an additional number of caretakers to be sent, but withdrew the police on the 20th of last month, and on the night of the 24th the house was burnt. The Property Defence Association had heretofore chosen trustworthy men as caretakers; but now they had to look out for men who had the additional qualifications of discretion, judgment, and experience in the use of firearms. They were told it was justifiable, in certain circumstances, to repel force by force, and, if occasion required, even to take life; but they all knew that magistrates had made mistakes in that matter, and that where police officers had fired on a mob it had been afterwards decided that they were not justified in doing so. How much more likely was that to happen with caretakers? It was a very nice point for those men to say how far the circumstances of the case would justify the taking of life. It was said they might obtain additional protection from police patrols; but that very much depended upon how the patrolling was carried out, and on the number of men employed. The mere perfunctorily marching along one road at a stated hour, and returning by another, might easily be evaded

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  by the strategy of lawless men. He, therefore, hoped that the officers in command of stations would be men who were capable of meeting strategy by strategy. The question of police protection to caretakers was daily acquiring increased importance from the policy of the Land League. Last year tenants were told by the agents of the Land League that if the landlords chose to evict them, let them—that they would find no one to take their land. That was found to be true; for when landlords had evicted they had barely found tenants to take their land. Even when the farms were taken by the landlords, the tenants, even when they had the money, had allowed the interest of their farms to go for a merely nominal price. One would have supposed that they would have strained every nerve to retain their farms; but, on the contrary, they allowed them to go in the most careless way. He had known cases in which the tenant's interest had been sold for £5. It was very hard to see what would be the result of this kind of policy; but it certainly caused the landlords great inconvenience. Some active young ladies were going about the country advising tenants not to pay their rents, and they would see that themselves and their families would be well taken care of. These people were causing a great deal of harm. He believed these associations, of which these young ladies were the agents, were very liberal in their dealings towards themselves, and were making a good living out of it; but that their payments to the labourer or the farmer were most parsimonious. It was to be expected that an increasing number of farms would fall into the hands of the landlords, or of the Defence Association as trustees. Those farms might ultimately be taken by tenants; but, in the first instance, they must be occupied by caretakers. In those circumstances, he trusted that the Government would be able to afford protection to caretakers and houses. The Chief Secretary for Ireland had, he observed, in the other House, the other night, described the state of things In that country as a terrible state of things, and spoke of the great struggle now going on between lawlessness and order. The Property Defence Association were prepared to bear their part in that struggle. They hoped that what they had done in the
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  past had not been without effect, and they proposed to carry it further. He did not charge the Government with acting in a hostile manner towards the Association in withdrawing police protection; but, undoubtedly, their course had had the effect of increasing the expenses of that body, and also embarrassed its operations. He hoped that the Association would be able to give support to law and order; and he thought that as long as they did it in the manner they had done it in the past they had a right to count upon the support of the Government, and there was very little doubt they could count upon the support of the public feeling of the country.
  Moved for, "Correspondence between the Irish Executive and the Director of the Property Defence Association on the subject of police protection to caretakers."—(The Earl of Courtown.)
  LORD CARLINGFORD: I have listened with pleasure to the very fair and interesting speech of the noble Earl on behalf of the Property Defence Association, especially as he has expressed a desire not to make any charge against the Government in the matter. I can only say that the Irish Government had, and still have, a very strong opinion, founded upon the best possible information at their disposal, that it was their duty to make the change referred to, and to employ a number of police, who had been told off in small bodies, for the personal and immediate protection of caretakers for other duties—patrolling and other things—in the disturbed districts, in the performance of which they believed the police would render more effectual assistance in carrying on that struggle of law and order against crime and outrage of which the Chief Secretary for Ireland spoke in such strong terms the other night. I may add, with respect to this change of system, that the Government have been in full consultation with the special resident magistrates who are in charge of the most disturbed districts in Ireland, and their opinion has been most strongly given in favour of that change. It is also their hope and belief that they will be able by other means—means less direct, but they hope not less effectual—to give that protection to caretakers which the noble Earl and the Property Defence Association naturally and properly look for.

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  The Irish Government is very sensible of the valuable services rendered by the Association with which the noble Earl is connected. There have been services performed, and work done by it, which, on the one hand, could not be done in many cases by individuals, and which was, on the other hand, beyond the power and duties of Her Majesty's Government. In the feeling of gratitude we owe to the Association I heartily concur.
  Motion agreed to.
  Correspondence ordered to be laid before the House.

PRECOGNITIONS (SCOTLAND).

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF MINTOrose to ask Her Majesty's Government, Whether any instructions have been given, in conformity with their intentions as expressed in the House of Lords on the 8th of last July, relative to the periodical production by the authorities of the Crown Office in Scotland of the number of investigations by procurators fiscal in each county of Scotland into cases of sudden death and death under suspicious circumstances, with the result of each inquiry; also of investigations in cases of accident and of incendiarism? The noble Earl said, there were very serious cases constantly occurring, and he thought it not only desirable, but necessary, that some such proposal as he had indicated should be carried into effect. He complained that hitherto the public had been kept in ignorance, in many cases, of the investigations which had been made in various parts of the country as to suspicious and other deaths. He contended that in all such instances there should be prompt communication made to the chief officials of the county in which a death took place, and that every facility should be given to enable the public to acquire full information with regard to it. He had before now stated that he was in favour of the names of the deceased persons being published officially; but he learnt that the Government did not approve the adoption of such a course, on the ground that pain and annoyance would be caused to the surviving relatives of dead persons. He had, therefore, relinquished that part of his proposition; but he could
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  not impress too strongly upon the House the vital importance of taking immediate steps in reference to this matter, which he conceived to be of immediate consequence. What he mainly desired to insist upon was, that the chief officials in each county should be instantly apprised of all investigations taking place in such county, and that the public at large should be placed in such a position that they might have full opportunity for the acquisition of information on matters which, to many of them, were of serious and grave moment. He had on a former occasion, as their Lordships knew, brought this question before the House; but the answer he received upon that occasion was, he was afraid, not so satisfactory as he could have wished. He hoped that the answer he might now receive would be a satisfactory one; and that whatever action was taken would be taken promptly and without delay.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: I am sure everybody is extremely indebted to the noble Earl for the trouble he has taken with reference to this subject, and the means he has taken, both inside and outside the House, to bring his exertions to a satisfactory conclusion. I think my noble Friend will consider that the answer I have to give him to-night is a satisfactory conclusion to the exertions he has made. Instructions have been given to the Crown Agents and the Sheriff Clerks in counties, and to Town Clerks in burghs, to make a Return of the cases reported to them under the heads—first, of sudden deaths and deaths under suspicious circumstances; second, fires and explosions; and third, accidents. They are also to specify those cases in which there is reason to suspect crime and culpability, and to state the number in each county. These Returns will be open to public inspection, and care will be taken that they shall be brought under the notice of parties who may be supposed to be more immediately interested. As regards the question of names, the noble Earl has correctly stated the reasons which disincline the Government to publish them; and, as regards the promptitude with which these measures I have indicated will be carried out, I can assure him that the arrangements made will insure their being carried into effect without any delay.

TURKEY—PASSAGE IN THE BOSPHORUS—RUSSIAN ARMED SHIPS.

  OBSERVATIONS. QUESTION.
  LORD STRATHEDEN AND CAMPBELL: The statements I refer to in the Question I am about to ask Her Majesty's Government have proceeded from the Constantinople Correspondents of The Times and The Standard, March 11, from the Constantinople Correspondents of The Times and The Standard, March 24, and from the Constantinople Correspondent of The Times, March 27. The most important of them is that the Porte had entered a formal protest against the passage of the Moskowa with 700 soldiers on board through the Bosphorus. The Moskowa is described as one of the Volunteer Fleet, used in time of peace as a merchantman. She was bound from Nicolaieff, the naval arsenal in the Black Sea, to Vladivostock, on the East Coast of Siberia. There is a statement with regard to another vessel for which a Firman had been asked for and conceded. The necessity of maintaining the Bosphorus and Dardanelles against ships of war has been recognized in many Treaties. It is specifically laid down in the 1st Article of the Treaty of 1841, by which the Egyptian difficulty of that period was settled. No doubt the Black Sea Conference of 1871 enabled ships of war to ascend the Bosphorus and Dardanelles, but only at the desire of the Sultan. The allegations I have mentioned may be perfectly unfounded; but, if correct, ought not to be entirely passed over. The circumstances of the late war; the particular relations of the Treaty of San Stefano to the Congress of Berlin; the mysterious accession of the First Lord of the Treasury to the Offices he holds, create in Russia a not unnatural desire to surmount the barriers which, speaking roughly, guard the Mediterranean from the Black Sea, and which a few years back had nearly vanished altogether. A merchantman develops into a ship of war by easy stages. Whatever goes through the Bosphorus may possibly remain there for a considerable period. In this way, a naval occupation may be silently effected so as to add no little force to the Embassy with which it is connected. I have but one more remark to offer. Of all the fallacies the Eastern Question has created, possibly
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  the greatest lies in the assumption that whatever the Sublime Porte is led to ratify should cease to be an object of distrust among the Powers which maintain its independence. Those Powers maintain its independence not for Ottoman, but European interests and objects. There are many instances in which the diplomatic influence of Russia may lead the Porte to ratify what it is anxious to oppose, and what, at least, ought not to be conceded. In the Treaty of Unkiar Skelessi, by which, in 1833, Russia and the Porte were bound for eight years to defend one another—a Treaty which drew forth a protest from France and Great Britain—this truth received a well-known illustration. But I will add no further preface to the Question. I have to ask Her Majesty's Government, Whether they are prepared to give any information as to the alleged passage of Russian ships with armed men through the Bosphorus and Dardanelles?
  EARL GRANVILLE: We are informed that a Russian transport called the Moskowa anchored at the beginning of the month of March in the Bosphorus with 700 soldiers on board, whom she was transporting from Nicolaieff, in the Black Sea, to Vladivostock, on the Eastern Coast of Siberia. This arrival, without previous communication with the Porte, caused considerable dissatisfaction to the Sultan, and the Moskowa was requested immediately to proceed upon her voyage. She had, however, started before the order reached her. The Russian Embassy contended that the soldiers were passengers and unarmed, and that it was, therefore, not necessary to obtain the previous assent of the Turkish Government to the anchorage of the vessel. An application was subsequently made to the Ottoman Government from the Russian Government for permission for another ship to pass through with exiles destined for the Pacific Coast in charge of a military guard. The Foreign Minister objected. We have not yet heard officially how the matter has been decided. There is no doubt whatever that with regard to men-of-war and to merchant vessels containing armed men the permission of the Ottoman Government would have to be obtained. I should not like to give off-hand an opinion with regard to Government vessels, which do not answer

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  exactly to the description of the above-mentioned vessels, without knowing all the facts of each case.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Are we to understand that the question whether any communications will be addressed to the Russian Government is under the consideration of Her Majesty's Government?
  EARL GRANVILLE: We must obtain further information before we decide whether we shall send any further communications or not.

ROYAL PARKS—RICHMOND PARK—THE ROEHAMPTON GATE.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF DUNRAVENasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether the Roehampton Gate of Richmond Park is barred to the public by a barrier across the road, within a few yards of the gate; and, if so, whether it is not advisable to close the Roehampton Gate until such time as the public are allowed access to that gate?
  LORD SUDELEY: I am sorry that I am unable to give the noble Earl much information on this subject at present. It is quite true that a barrier has been placed across the lane by Mrs. Prescott, the lady who owns that property, thus preventing the public having access to the Roehampton Gate. The First Commissioner of Works is in communication with His Royal Highness the Ranger, and the whole matter is now under consideration.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEsaid, he thought that the public would be glad to buy up the lady's rights if she were willing to sell them. He understood that a few years back she would have accepted £2,000—a small sum, considering that the Roehampton Gate gave an access to Richmond Park two miles nearer than any other gate. Besides that, it was within half a mile of a railway station at Barnes Common. He was sure that the opening of the gate would be a great boon to every class of the public.

  STATIONERY OFFICE (CONTROLLER'S REPORT).—RESOLUTIONS.
  LORD THURLOW, in asking the House to concur in the Resolutions embodying the recommendations of the
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  Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament which sat last Session to consider the first Report of the Controller of Her Majesty's Stationery Office, said, that they were brief but important. The Treasury and the Stationery Office considered that, if carried out, they would not only lead to considerable economies being effected, but would also expedite and simplify all matters connected with the printing, storage, and distribution of Parliamentary Papers. There was only one other point to which he should allude—it was the promulgation list, to which a noble Lord (Lord Monteagle) referred last year. This list was now under revision by the Home Office and Treasury; and when it emerged from that process it would be found that the names of obsolete Offices and officials supposed to be supplied with copies of the Statutes had been expunged. He would only add that these Resolutions had already received the approval of the other House of Parliament, and he trusted their Lordships would agree to them. He begged to move the following Resolutions:—

  "(1.) That the present system, under which this House employs for its ordinary work a separate printer, working independently of, and without reference to, other Government contracts, is inexpedient, and he at the first convenient opportunity discontinued:

  "(2.) That the Lords Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury he authorised to make preliminary arrangements, and at the proper time to lay open to public competition, and enter into contracts to provide, in such manner as they may think hest, for all the printing of this House, other than the printing of the Minutes of Proceedings and Journals; provided that such contracts made, either separately or in connexion with other printing for the Public Service, shall he laid he fore the House not less than forty days, and shall then take effect, unless disapproved by the House:

  "(3.) That all Papers printed by order of this House, or presented by Command of Her Majesty, other than those required for the use of Lords or officers of this House, he placed under the custody of the Stationery Office; all such Papers to he as far as possible made easily accessible to the public by purchase, and the proceeds to be paid into the Exchequer."

  Resolutions agreed to.

ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (WEST HAM, &c.) BILL [H.L.] (No. 55.)
A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Education Department under "The Elementary Education Act, 1870," to enable the School Boards for West Ham, Essex, and

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Terrington St. John, Norfolk, to put in force the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845, and the Acts amending the same: And

ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LONDON) BILL [H.L.]
(No. 56.) A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Education Department under "The Elementary Education Act, 1870," to enable the School Board for London to put in force the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845, and the Acts amending the same:
Were presented by The Lord SANDHHURST; read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDERS (BALLYMENA, &c.) BILL [H.L.]
A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board for Ireland relating to the towns of Ballymena, Clonmel, Fermoy, and Letterkenny—Was presented by The LORD;PRIVY SEAL; read 1a, and referred to the Examiners. (No. 57.)
House adjourned at Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.