Lords Sitting of 13 March 1882

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Royal Assent—Consolidated Fund (No. 1) [45 Vict. c. 1]; Post Cards (Reply) [45 Vict. c. 2].
SOUTH AFRICA—BASUTOLAND.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVON, referring to the Papers recently laid on the Table with reference to South Africa, said, that in a despatch dated the 9th of December there was something which apparently required explanation, allusions being made to expressed opinions of Sir Hercules Robinson which did not therein occur, and he should be glad if the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies could give it?
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY, in reply, said, the fact of the matter was that the words at the end of the despatch referred to a confidential communication which could not be included in the Papers. The whole, however, need not have been omitted, and he would read an extract from it which might be given,

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  and which conveyed the views of Sir Hercules Robinson, and he would afterwards lay it on the Table. Sir Hercules Robinson said—
  "If Her Majesty's Government feel a difficulty in promising beforehand that they will not, under any circumstances, interfere, I would advise that, instead of a direct answer to the inquiry, Ministers be informed as follows:—'That, whatever have been the views of Her Majesty's Government as to the origin of the war, they look upon the award accepted by both sides and approved of by Her Majesty's Government as a fresh starting point, and that, if the Colonial Government finds it necessary to proceed to extreme measures with Masupha to enforce the award, the colony may rely on the moral support, and, if need be, the assistance of the Imperial Government in securing for the loyals fullest measures of justice.' I think it possible that, if Masupha found either that the colony was free to deal with him as it pleased, or that it had the countenance and support of the Imperial Government in insisting upon the rights of loyals being respected, he would give in. The belief that the Colonial and Imperial Governments are not in accord upon the matter is, I imagine, in a great measure at the bottom of the difficulty."—(Date, December 30, 1881.)
  He would take that opportunity of reading a telegram he had received that morning upon the subject of the disturbances on the North-western Frontier. In answer to an inquiry, Sir Hercules Robinson telegraphed—
  "12th. Yours, 11th. On the 27th of February Rutherford, in the absence of Hudson, reported as follows:—'General Joubert, with 60 mounted police, left some days ago to coerce Skalafyn, a Caffre chief residing within Transvaal territory on the Western border, who had given trouble and raised wall defences. Meanwhile, Skalafyn had come to Pretoria by another route and given explanation to the Government which had led to instructions being sent after Joubert to stay proceedings, subject to Skalafyn paying expenses of expedition, which he had promised to do. There had been extensive commandeering in Potchefstroom, and a large number had left the district to follow Joubert; but it is understood all will be recalled.' On the 6th of March Rutherford reported having received on the 3rd a letter from Government, stating that affairs on the West border continued unchanged; within Transvaal line all quiet, but outside, daily fighting and bloodshed, and Government apprehend conflict will extend and last long."
  The telegram also contained some observations on the possible mode of dealing with the difficulty which it would be premature to mention at present; but he might state that Sir Hercules Robinson added, on his own part, that the Transvaal Government seemed doing what they could to maintain the neutrality of their territory.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVON: Was the expedition inside or outside the Transvaal Frontier?
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he did not apprehend there was any "Transvaal expedition;" but there had been a demonstration made against a Native Chief within the Transvaal Frontier. This, he imagined, had given rise to the statement that large commandeering had taken place, which meant, of course, an official assembling of troops.

  BRITISH NORTH BORNEO COMPANY (CHARTER).—OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD LAMINGTON, on rising to call the attention of the House to the Royal Charter granted on 8th November 1881 to the Company calling itself the North British Borneo Company, said, that if he did not hold in his hand The London Gazette of the 8th of November, 1881, he should scarcely venture to bring this question forward, lest their Lordships should think him the victim of some deception, or endeavouring to mislead their Lordships. They were all aware that the East was the land of adventure—that there individuals rose suddenly from obscurity to the summits of fortune; but this Gazette contained the history of a change almost without parallel. He read there how a merchant in China, of a house long enjoying the greatest commercial repute, but of no political importance, suddenly emerged from his obscurity to become practically a Sovereign Prince of a country on the North Coast of Borneo, containing about 30,000 square miles, with a seaboard of 500 miles, and a jurisdiction extending over three leagues from the shore, together with all the adjacent islands. Indeed, as it was well observed, "this Gazette almost took their breath away." The history of this transaction was this:—It seemed that in 1865 an American trading Company obtained from the Sultan of Borneo a 10 years' lease of this same territory. In 1875, when this lease was about to expire, Mr. Alfred Dent, of the eminent Chinese house of Messrs. Dent and Co., who had from time to time visited Borneo, thought it was a favourable moment to oust the American Company, and, at the cost of a large annual tribute, to purchase the whole territory. It was a bold idea, and it succeeded. There were no less

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  than three different grants from the Sultans of Brunei and Sulu, and a fourth by the Prime Minister, the Pangeran Tumongong. For the terms of these grants and the extraordinary powers they conferred on Mr. Alfred Dent, he would now refer to The Gazette. The Petition stated—
  "That on the 29th day of December, 1877. the Sultan of Brunei, in the island of Borneo, made and issued to the petitioner, Alfred Dent and another, or one of them, three several grants of territories, lands, and islands therein mentioned, and a commission. And whereas the said Petition further states that by the first of the grants aforesaid the Sultan of Brunei granted to the grantees, co-jointly, their heirs and associates, successors, or assigns, all the territory and land belonging to the Sultan on the West Coast of Borneo, comprising Gaya Bay from Gaya Head to Loutut Point, including Sapangar Bay, and Gaya Bay, and Sapangar Island, and Gaya Island, and all the other islands within the limits of the harbour and within three marine leagues of the coast, likewise the province and territory of Pappar adjoining the province of Benoni, and belonging to the Sultan as his private property. …. By the second of the grants aforesaid, the Sultan of Brunei granted to the grantees co-jointly, their heirs, associates, successors, or assigns, all the territories belonging to the Sultan from the Sulaman River, on the North-West Coast of Borneo, unto the River Paitan, on the North-East Coast of the island, containing 21 States, together with the island of Banguey, and all the other islands within three marine leagues of the coast, for their own exclusive uses and purposes."
  The grant then went on to provide that the grantees should pay the Sultan, his heirs, and successors, the sum of $ 6,000 per annum. Further—
  "By the third of the grants aforesaid, the Sultan of Brunei granted to the grantees, their heirs, associates, successors, or assigns, all the following territories belonging to the kingdom of Brunei, and comprising the States of Paitan, Sugut, Bangaya, Labuk, Sandakan, Kina, Batangan, Mumiang, and all the territories as far as the Sibuco River, with all the islands within three leagues of the coast belonging thereto, for their own exclusive and absolute uses and purposes; and in consideration of that grant the grantees promised to pay co-jointly and severally as compensation the sum of 2,000 dollars per annum."
  It was further declared—
  "That the Sultan had nominated and appointed, and thereby did nominate and appoint, the same grantee supreme ruler of the above-named territories, with the title of Maharajah of Sabah (North Borneo) and Rajah of Gaya and Sandakan, with power of life and death over the inhabitants, with all the absolute rights of property vested in the Sultan over the soil of the country, and the right to dispose of the same, as well as the rights over the pro-
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  ductions of the country, whether mineral, vegetable, or animal, with the rights of making laws, coining money, creating an army and navy, levying customs rates on home and foreign trade, and shipping and other dues and taxes on the inhabitants, as to him might seem good or expedient, together with all other powers and rights usually exercised by and belonging to sovereign rulers, and which the Sultan thereby delegated to him of his own free will."
  It was also stated in the Petition that by the grant—
  "The Sultan called upon all foreign nations with whom he had formed friendly treaties or alliances, and he commanded all the datoos, nobles, governors, chiefs, and people owing allegiance to him in the said territories, to receive and acknowledge the said Datu Bandahara as supreme ruler over the said States, and to obey his commands and respect his authority therein as the Sultan's own; and in case of the death or retirement from office of the said Datu Bandahara, then his duly-appointed successor in the office of supreme ruler and governor-in-chief of the Company's territories in Borneo should likewise, if appointed thereto by the Company, succeed to the title of Datu Bandahara and Rajah of Sandakan and all the powers above enumerated be vested in him."
  They now arrived at the second act of this drama. Mr. Alfred Dent, as they saw, awoke one morning to find himself a Sovereign Prince; but he was soon oppressed by his own greatness, and resolved that others should share his honours and responsibilities, so he founded a Company called the North British Borneo Company, and consisting of the following names:—Sir Rutherford Alcock, K. C. B., Richard Biddulph Martin, M. P., Richard Charles Mayne, C. B., and William Henry Macleod Read. The 1st clause of this Company's articles of association was the most remarkable, and required much explanation—
  "To purchase from Alfred Dent, his interests and powers in, over, and affecting territories, lands, and property in Borneo, and Islands lying near thereto, including Labuan."
  Did the noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Colonies know that sovereign power of life and death in Labuan as well as Borneo was conceded? And this brought him (Lord Lamington) to the third act of this Eastern transformation play, when a Royal Charter was granted to the Company. Before, however, he touched on the terms of that Charter, he wished to recite to their Lordships what was the position of the island of Borneo. The earliest settlers were the Dutch and

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  Portuguese; but Spain also had claims of territory; and for the last 40 years this country had had an interest in the island by the cession of Labuan to Great Britain, and of Sarawak to Sir James Brooke, who first planted the British flag in Borneo. He was one of those men, like the adventurers of old, who dared much, not for personal objects, but in the spirit of Sir Stamford Raffles; there was no more interesting study than the history of the early struggles of Sir James Brooke; but not only did he fail to receive any Royal Charter, but he was the victim of cruel persecutions, and the chief charge made against him by Mr. Hume and others was, that his was a commercial enter-prize, whereas, on the contrary, all commercial interests were subordinate to those of civilization; and, although his great and good work had been carried on so successfully by his nephew, the present Rajah, the slight support he received from the Government by the presence of a British Consul at Sarawak had, he understood, been withdrawn within the last few years. And now, as to this Charter, he thought their Lordships would be startled at the magnitude of the concessions made by it. In some respects it exceeded the conditions granted to the East India Company. The only similar charter was that given to William Paterson, of the Isthmus of Darien Company, and the result was certainly not encouraging; and in the same way, the present concession might prove to be most disastrous. He thought that the Government would be glad of the opportunity of more clearly defining the powers of the Company. He turned again to The Gazette—
  "Transfer to Company of Grants and Commissions.—1. The said British North Borneo Company (in this our Charter referred to as the Company) is hereby authorized and empowered to acquire by purchase or other lawful means from the British North Borneo Provisional Association (Limited), the full benefit of the several grants and commissions aforesaid, or any of them, as the same is vested in that association, and all interests and powers of that association thereunder, and all interests and powers vested in that association in, over, or affecting the territories, lands, and property comprised in those several grants or in, over, or affecting any territories, lands, or property in Borneo, or in any island lying near thereto, including Labuan, and to hold, use, enjoy, and exercise the same for the purposes and on the terms of this, our Charter."
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  The General Powers vested in the Company comprised authority—
  "To acquire and take by purchase, cession, or other lawful means, other interests or powers in, over, or affecting the territories, lands, or property comprised in the several grants aforesaid, or any interests, or powers whatever in, over, or affecting other territories, lands, or property in the region aforesaid; and to hold, use, enjoy, and exercise the same for the purposes and on the terms of this our Charter.
  "To farm out for revenue purposes the right to sell in the Company's territories spirits, tobacco, opium, salt, or other commodities.
  "To take and hold, without licence in mortmain or other authority than this our Charter, messuages and hereditaments in England and in any of our Colonies or Possessions and elsewhere, convenient for carrying on the management of the affairs of the Company, and to dispose from time to time of any such messuages and hereditaments when not required for that purpose.
  "To do all lawful things incidental or conducive to the exercise or enjoyment of the authorities and powers of the Company in this our Charter expressed or referred to or any of them."
  It seemed to him that the Charter being a voluntary grant, the Government might at least have insisted on more favourable conditions in the Charter. He suggested that it might not yet be too late to do so by means of a supplementary agreement. He would touch very lightly on our relations with foreign Powers, especially Holland and Spain, for all his information was derived from foreign papers. He therefore would not refer to the possibility of any foreign complications, which he hoped would not arise. He had already stated that since 1521 Spain had claimed the Sulu Archipelago, and he saw The Liberal asserted that the Sultan was a vassal of Spain, and in the Chamber, the Minister said that Spain had protested against the English occupation of Borneo, and that no country had rights on the Northern Coast superior to Spain. He had no fault to find with the Government in the matter. One of the accusations brought against the late Government was that it was too ambitious, and involved the country in new responsibilities; but he was pleased to see that some part of Lord Beaconsfield's mantle had fallen on noble Lords opposite, and that, to some extent, they might be congratulated on the fact that they were also developing an Imperial policy—only instead of a new Cyprus we had a new Borneo, and an interest in North Borneo instead of Suez Canal shares. He concluded we should now

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  hear no more of the cession of Colonies and the sacrifice of dominion; but he thought, however much we might approve of an Imperial policy, we might ask whether the Government had fully considered the complications which might arise from granting a commercial Company a Charter, the most extensive in its powers that was ever granted by the Crown?
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, although I think the noble Lord opposite (Lord Lamington) might have waited until the Papers on the question were laid on the Table to-morrow or Wednesday, I do not complain that the matter has been brought forward now, particularly in the vein of cheerful pleasantry which the noble Lord has adopted. I am glad the noble Lord has given me an opportunity to make some observations in explanation of a subject about which there appears to have been some misconception and some exaggerated alarm. Borneo is, as your Lordships are well aware, one of the largest, if not the largest, island in the world, if Australia be properly described as a continent. Borneo has vast national resources, and abounds in mineral and vegetable riches. It has long been a subject of jealous observation between this country, the Dutch, the Spaniards, and the Portuguese, and has been colonized partially by each of those Powers. In fact, the East India Company had Treaties regarding Borneo in the last century. Since the Peace of 1814, however, the English and Dutch have alone maintained establishments there. But for more than 60 years diplomatic communications have been going on in regard to it. It is not necessary for me to describe them in detail. It is sufficient to state that under successive Governments the British contentions have been of a perfectly consistent character. During that time the Dutch have made immense acquisitions, not only in the islands south of the Straits of Singapore, but also in the South of Borneo. The claims of Spain, as lately developed, would, if they had been verified, have placed the whole of the islands of the Eastern Archipelago, extending 2,000 miles in one direction, and 2,500 in another, with the exception of the land lying on the track of our immense trade with China and Australia, the Straits Settlements, Labuan and Sarawak, en-
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  tirely in the power of those two nations, with both of whom we desire to be on the most friendly terms, but whose commercial arrangements are far from being as liberal as our own. It was under those circumstances that my noble Friend (the Earl of Derby), when he was Foreign Secretary, considered it to be his duty to take a firm stand as to the claim of Spain. Some communications followed, and they were spread over considerable time, and, in 1877, a Protocol was signed by which England and Germany agreed with Spain as to a modus vivendi, securing the freedom of navigation and commerce to this country in the Sulu Archipelago, but without an acknowledgment of Spanish sovereignty. Subsequently, however, to this Protocol, England and Germany thought they had reason to complain of acts which appeared to them entirely in disaccord with its provisions, and which showed that the Spaniards intended to occupy portions of North Borneo. The Dutch, on the other hand, made new claims, being alarmed by concessions which had been made by the Sultan of Borneo and of Sulu to Mr. Dent, who, on his part, in 1878, applied to Her Majesty's Government for a Charter of Incorporation. The noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Salisbury), the then Foreign Secretary, also held firm language to the Spanish Government, repudiating their claim to any portion of North Borneo, stating that the claim of the British Government was a stronger one, if the independence of the Sultan was to terminate in favour of any European country. He held language equally firm to Holland. Germany concurred in these views. Mr. Dent again pressed for a decision on his application for a Charter, which, during the preceding two years, had not been unfavourably received by the noble Marquess, who, I think, with propriety, considered that it was matter to be finally decided by the incoming instead of the outgoing Administration. The problem left to us was not an easy one to decide. The noble Lord opposite (Lord Lamington) has said there has been a great change of policy on the part of the Government, and he called it an Imperial policy. Now, no one feels stronger than I do with regard to the great responsibility which there must be in reference to the government of the island of Borneo. It

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  is not necessary for me to say that Her Majesty's present Government are also deeply impressed with the enormous responsibilities which weigh upon this small island, and the undesirability of recklessly increasing these responsibilities without sufficient cause. But this is not a reason why we should obstinately refuse to consider, on its own merits, any case which may arise. If a case should present itself which promises great advantages to our political and commercial interests, with an absence of reasonable ground for apprehending military or financial burdens, it would be the act of doctrinaires, and not of statesmen, to refuse to go into an examination of such a case. There seemed to be three courses open to us—either ourselves to annex this vast territory; to leave it to Mr. Dent and the important Company which he represented to make the best of the concession which had been granted to them—in other words, we might have left things to take their own course—or to leave the whole country to its almost inevitable absorption by foreign nations. There were grave objections to the first and third courses that did not appear to apply to the second. We learned not only from Mr. Dent, but from the concurrent reports of our Consular and of our naval authorities, the most satisfactory account of the progress, the development, and the civilization of the country under the Company. Order prevailed, Englishmen have been cordially received, and the authority of the Resident was everywhere acknowledged. It is a country which, from its climate, is not fitted for European labour; but it has a population, and may receive other immigrants, who, under the honest and intelligent supervision of Europeans, may produce great results. Mr. Dent had his concession and could act under it. The Royal Charter had no legal effect, except to give the Company incorporation. But it was possible for it to get incorporated under the Companies Acts. I have heard it said that it is unconstitutional to have conferred this Charter without consulting Parliament. That objection has certainly not presented itself either to the Foreign Office, to the Council Office, or to the Colonial Office, to the Cabinet, to the learned Lord on the Woolsack, or to the Law Officers, and for the simple reason that the Charter, in this instance, con-
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  tained no powers beyond those which Mr. Dent and his partners might have procured by simply putting themselves under the Companies Act. Your Lordships know that in some of our Colonies—New Zealand, for instance—there are large Companies which possess extensive territories, and the Charter obtained by Mr. Dent does not go beyond those obtained by those Companies. The Royal Charter gives no additional powers to the Company. It is of a restrictive character. We obtain a negative control over the Company with regard to their general treatment of the Natives and to their dealings with foreign Powers. We incur no obligation to give them military assistance, except that which we give to all Englishmen engaged in trade in uncivilized countries. The noble Lord complains that our position and that of the Company is not sufficiently defined with regard to this Charter—that our duties and obligations are vague. I must join issue with the noble Lord. The advice of the Law Officers was sought for in the drafting of the Charter, and their attention particularly drawn to the salient points. As to military protection expected or hoped for by the Company, they have distinctly stated that the Charter would entail no responsibility upon Her Majesty's Government for the protection of the country, beyond that which is inseparable from the nationality of those engaged in developing its resources. Her Majesty's Government are advised that they are not pledged by the Charter to afford any greater amount of protection or support to the Company than would be extended to it if it were simply incorporated under the Companies Act. More than this, the Company have stated, they do not expect or hope for under the Charter. In the case of the Hudson's Bay Company and the New Zealand Companies, the Crown had dominion over the respective countries. That fact alone entailed the duty of providing for their military defence. In the present case, there is no dominion over North Borneo from which such an obligation can flow. The granting this Charter does not vest in Her Majesty any Sovereignty over the territory, which remains under the suzerainty of the Sultan, although he has delegated the administrative power to the Association. The grant of the Charter has moral ad-

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  vantages for the Company, but legally it does nothing for it except turn it into a body corporate with perpetual succession. On the other hand, it imposes considerable restrictions upon the Association. It establishes a control over them which would not have existed if they had incorporated themselves under the Companies Act. But this control is of a negative character. It was first proposed to follow the precedent of the Eastern Archipelago Company, and to provide that the Company should obey the directions of the Secretary of State. But we decided that the power should be confined to a power of objection and dissent in matters affecting foreign Powers and the treatment of the Natives—confined, in fact, to certain limited matters in which the conduct of the Company might conflict with the views and policy of the Government, or with public opinion in this country. But this negative power is strong, and any disregard of the objections of the Government entails the possible cancelment of the Charter. I trust that this controlling power will not be called into effect; but its existence is most important. With regard to an objection raised by the noble Lord as to Mr. Dent being connected with the opium trade, the great China opium firm of Dent and Co. wound up its affairs more than 10 years ago, and this Mr. Dent never belonged to it. Opium would have been grown by the Natives under this Association whether a Charter had been granted or not. A monopoly can alone restrain the abuse of it, excepting by a total and sudden prohibition, which would cause the greatest resistance on the part of the Natives. This monopoly has been found necessary at Hong Kong and Singapore. I am bound to say that one of the greatest objections which have been brought forward against the grant of this Charter is that complications might arise with other Powers. I am inclined to believe that the delay in granting the Charter on the part of the late Government was principally caused by this difficulty. It was one of considerable weight; but I am happy to say that the final result will be rather an avoidance of these difficulties than any increase of them. Germany has formally stated that she has no objection to raise to the course which we have pursued. Both Spain and Holland entered protests.
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  Your Lordships will see by the Correspondence that the question was fully argued with Holland, and that the Dutch Minister made a statement in the Chambers which I felt it my duty to acknowledge as being of a very statesmanlike and friendly character. The Correpondence has ended entirely in that tone, and also with an assurance from Holland that the incident may be considered as finally closed. The Spanish Government took up the subject warmly; but in the last discussion in their Parliament they announced their intention of treating the matter as an accomplished fact. Since then we have discussed a further arrangement by which we should acknowledge the sovereignty of Spain over Sulu, subject to provisions of perfect liberty to our trade and navigation, while they would withdraw all claim to sovereignty in North Borneo, and the matter will thus, I have every reason to believe, be closed in a way perfectly satisfactory to Germany, Spain, and ourselves. Borneo is a most valuable and important part of the world. Though its climate is such as to prevent the use of European labour, it is well adapted to labour of a different sort; and if the resources of the country are developed under the honest and intelligent supervision of a certain number of Europeans, I believe that great results may be achieved, while no additional burden, either military or financial, will be thrown upon this country.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, he thought the House was under an obligation to his noble Friend behind him (Lord Lamington) for having brought the question forward, as it was an important one and might be still more so in the future. But the discussion must be carried on under disadvantageous conditions, as there were no Papers upon which to found an opinion. Still the House could not have failed to hear with interest the statement of the noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville) with regard to the position taken up by different foreign countries in connection with this matter, and they would be able to reserve their judgment until the Papers were before them. As he (the Earl of Carnarvon) understood the question, there were really four parties to be considered, but of two of these the statement of the noble Earl disposed. The parties to whom he referred were Hol-

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  land, Spain, and the Sultans of Sulu and Brunei. The annexations which Holland had made in the last 30 or 40 years were simply enormous. They stretched 2,000 miles in one direction and still further in another. It was impossible not to remember that Holland had not shown, and, indeed, did not possess, the power to make use of the territory she had acquired. Though he said this, he certainly bore Holland no ill-will, and considered her an excellent neighbour in that part of the world. He had no wish that she should lose her possessions there, or that her power should be curtailed. It would, on the other hand, show a very ill-founded and mistaken notion of her own interests if she were to indulge in any jealousy of England. She was a very reasonable neighbour to us, and we, in our turn, were very good neighbours to her. He was very glad to hear that Spain had practically confined herself to a formal protest against the proposed step. He could not conceive how Spain could have even the smallest possible case in such a matter as that which was under their consideration. There was a difference between the position of the Spanish nation and the Spanish Government, and he therefore drew a distinction between the action of individual captains in the Spanish Navy and the intentions of the Spanish Government. The interference with freedom of trade by Spanish cruisers in Eastern waters had been sometimes simply intolerable. He would not say that it had been authorized by the Spanish Government. Mention had been made by the noble Earl opposite of the joint action of Germany with ourselves in that matter. He (the Earl of Carnarvon) had heard that statement with pleasure, for it was very desirable that there should be co-operation among Powers in that part of the world. He thought the Government might well take advantage of the recent interchange of amicable communications between Spain and this country, to ask whether the Spanish Government would consent to a demarcation of territorial rights? He believed that some understanding had been come to on the subject in 1877 and 1878, and he should like to know how far it had been carried out? He maintained that it would be desirable to place the matter upon a less shifting basis than that which it occupied at present.
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  With regard to the position of the Sultan of Brunei, he would point out that the Sultan was already actually under a Treaty obligation not to alienate territory without the consent of the British Government; and so far from objecting to this country, he desired to see all the accessories of English Government established in his territory, believing that he would be a gainer to a large extent. He (the Earl of Carnarvon) would go so far as to say this, that it would have been not only disastrous to the Natives and the population in that part of the world, but a source of great inconvenience and risk to ourselves if any other country than England had been lodged in the North-eastern part of Borneo, and there could be no doubt that if we had not established our position there, some other European Power would. It was very desirable that they should see the Papers that were promised, and he was convinced the more closely they looked into this matter the more satisfied they would be, and the more highly they would appreciate the advantages gained by this country under the Charter. Risks and responsibilities should not be lightly incurred, and he quite agreed with the noble Earl opposite that the matter should be judged on its own merits; but, on the other hand, it was very important that this country should recognize what an enormous stake it had in the trade that passed through these waters. The trade from the West between England and China was simply vast; but there was also the trade growing up between China and Australia, which was very considerable. There could be no doubt that their position in the North-east of Borneo, whether looked at as a matter of peace or of war, was of very great consequence. He could not, of course, speak with the same authority as the noble Earl; but he believed the result of this settlement had been extremely advantageous already. Great improvements had been made, piracy had diminished, murders and other crimes had been reduced, kidnapping had been brought almost to an. end, human sacrifices had disappeared, and there was a general indication of prosperity. No force had been used; on the contrary, taxes had been imposed, and assented to without any remonstrance on the part of the Natives. He had more than once had to question the

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  policy of the Colonial Government; but in this particular case, he could do nothing but congratulate them on the policy they had adopted, and as one who had held the Office of Colonial Secretary, he gave them his cordial support in the matter. With regard to the powers granted to the Company, what the noble Earl said about the Charter was quite true. The Company might have gone elsewhere, or it might have registered itself under the Joint Stock Companies Act; but so far as the Charter went it really granted no new powers to the Company; it recognized the status of the Company under the Sultans of Sulu and Bornei, and it imposed restrictions, so that the Company would not be able to abuse those powers if if it were disposed to do so. Objections had been raised, especially with respect to the monopoly in opium; but that was no new complaint, and the fact that the monopoly existed would tend rather to diminish than to increase its general consumption. Besides, a higher tax was imposed by the Company upon opium; and there was no danger in the direction pointed out by his noble Friend. Objection had also been raised with respect to the extensive powers granted to the Company; but if there was to be any government worthy of the name, they could hardly give much less power than that obtained by the Company under the Charter; and it did not appear that the Company had ever used their powers improperly, or diversely from the wishes of the Government, or interests of the country. In his opinion there was a very good defence for the course which had been taken, and it would place the island very much in the position in which it was when governed by Governor Brooke, if we had allowed it to drop into the hands of some barbarous Chief. He did not see how the Government could have acted otherwise than they had done, and he believed they had taken the only course open to them. They would have done a great wrong if they had allowed this territory to pass into the hands of any foreign State. He believed that the possession would be a valuable one both in peace and war, and as such he welcomed its acquisition.
  LORD ELPHINSTONEsaid, he concurred with the noble Earl (the Earl of Carnarvon) in thinking that the Govern-
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  ment had taken the proper course in this matter. It was a curious thing that some years ago, when the late Mr. Hume was quoting the testimony of Mr. Burn, the captain of a small trading schooner, as to the non-existence of piracy in Borneo, that gentleman was having his head cut off by some of the very men he maintained had no existence; and the ship to which he (Lord Elphinstone) belonged was sent to avenge his death. The chief pirate afterwards unhesitatingly avowed that had not the most of his men been away on a piratical expedition not a man of his (Lord Elphinstone's) party would have been allowed to return to their ship alive. There was a vast contrast between the state of that country in 1851 and 1881. When he visited it at the former date the country was then in a very lawless state. Piracy was openly acknowledged. To show what North Borneo was at present, he desired to read to the House a few brief extracts from the letters of a gentleman who was well known in North Borneo. Mr. Prior, writing from that country in February, 1881, said he was well satisfied to find that the bare knowledge of an Englishman's presence in the country had sufficed to put a stop to sacrifices and to the cruelties practised in the collection of customs; but, he added, much yet remained to be done. Writing in June, 1881, he stated that when he arrived in the country crime was simply rampant, robbery was rife, and there was no security either for life or property. In so short a time as two years all this had changed. There was a brisk trade doing, two steamers called regularly every month, and crime had almost disappeared. This was the testimony of a gentleman well worthy of the attention of their Lordships. Some years' experience had taught him of the great advantage, geographically and commercially, which the possession of Borneo would confer, for the splendid position of the country and its spacious harbours were well known to the House. Its commercial products resembled those of Ceylon, the latitude of both places being approximately the same, and coffee, the cocoa bean, and sago were very generally grown. The country showed every sign of still further development; and he congratulated the Government upon the course they had pursued in not refusing the Company's request for a Charter.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he had extremely little to add to the discussion their Lordships had already listened to. One or two points raised by the noble Lord opposite (Lord Lamington) seemed to require some answer from him. The noble Lord appeared to consider that the Company's Charter contained a clause enabling them to interfere in the Colony of Labuan. The clause in question gave the Company no particular rights whatever. All that the Charter said was that they might have power to purchase lands and property in Labuan, in precisely he same manner as in any other island in the neighbourhood. He need not have said anything about the concession with respect to the opium traffic, if it were not that some extraordinary opinions appeared to prevail on the subject of opium farming. The provision in the Company's Charter merely enabled them to farm out revenue obtained in the usual way from the sale of opium. Farming the tax did not mean a monopoly of growing opium; but by means of farming out the tax the Company would be able to control the opium trade. Similar farms of taxes on opium had existed for many years in Hong Kong, the Straits Settlements, and Labuan; and he never heard of any objection being made to them. With regard to the general question and the alleged impolicy of interfering in the affairs of Borneo, and looking to what was going on in that part of the world, it was only a question of time as to whether some control should be exercised by England or by a foreign Power over this part of Borneo. He could not too strongly assure the House that the Government were opposed to any plan which would enlarge the responsibilities and the charges at present imposed upon this country. But each case must be considered in reference to its own particular circumstances; and the territory in question was peculiarly situated. Its position was a very central one; it might be said to be in a manner derelict, as the Native Sultans exercised very little authority there, and, sooner or later, in all probability sooner rather than later, some foreign Power must intervene. He thought that anybody who had studied all the relations which existed between the different States, both Native and European, in that quarter of the
  724
  world, must have seen that the only natural conclusion was that this country should undertake this amount of responsibility. It was not the first time that we had interfered in the affairs of Borneo; and we were only now following the line of action which had formerly been pursued. We had entered into a Treaty with the Sultan of Brunei more than 30 years ago, and the policy Her Majesty's Government were now acting upon was a policy which they had pursued for a very long period. With respect to the Dutch possessions in that part of the world, he did not think that it would be contended by anyone that we were under any obligation to the Dutch not to interfere. Our relations with them were regulated by the Treaty of 1825, and he saw no reason why we should not always be good friends with them. He thought that the Dutch, who had in recent years made such great additions to their territories in this quarter, might reasonably acquiesce in the extension of our power. He believed that they were satisfied that we had not taken these steps in hostility or dislike to them—on the contrary, that those we had taken were in their interest as well as our own, and that we should work together in perfect harmony in the exercise of our respective influence in that country. He thought that there was no probability of a recurrence of the disputes which had from time to time arisen between the English and Dutch in that part of the world. Our interest there was peaceful trade and commerce; and he reminded the House that it was probable that conflicts and disturbances would be the result of the introduction of any new power into the Island. As to Spain, as his noble Friend had said, the Government had taken the same view on this question as that taken by their Predecessors—they did not admit in any way that the Spaniards had any rights on the mainland of Borneo; but he was happy to say there was a prospect that all disputes would come to an end in that quarter by the demarcation of a distinct line of boundary. The course taken by the Government was perfectly consistent with the policy which they had followed throughout the world—namely, a policy of promoting peace and tranquillity, instead of increasing the dangers and burdens, already so great, which this country had incurred.

THE IRISH LAND COMMISSION.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNErose to call the attention of the House, to report in "Times" of 6th instant, of Mr. Justice Field's statement in Queen's Bench (County Court Appeals),
  "That it was essential to the exercise of the right of appeal that the judge should take notes of the evidence, and state the facts proved and the points decided clearly and distinctly, so as to enable the Court to understand them;"
  and to ask Her Majesty's Government, whether justice does not require that the commissioners and sub-commissioners under the Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1881, should be guided by the same rules as are laid down by the learned judge for the guidance of county court judges in England? The noble Lord said, he only hoped that the principles enunciated from the Treasury Bench that evening would be carried out nearer home. He wished the Government could only find out some of those able men such as were connected with the North Borneo Company, who seemed to have ability to charm away crime in that savage country, and send them to Ireland. The remarks of Mr. Justice Field appeared to be so peculiarly applicable to many of the appeals which were being made from the Sub-Commissioners to the Commissioners under the Land Act, and also to appeals taken from the latter tribunal to the Court of Appeal, that he should be glad to hear from Her Majesty's Government an intimation of their willingness to call the attention of the Commissioners to the declaration of the learned Judge he had quoted from, with the object of securing to Irishmen interested in landed property the same principles which were applied in England, and without which the right of appeal given under the Land Act would become null and void. It was plain that as many of the Sub-Commissioners were only appointed by the year, that the Government could influence, if not direct, them; and it was at least probable that the Commissioners would attend to suggestions from the Government that their Courts and the Courts of their deputies should be carried on under such rules as would enable the rights of appeal given under the Act to be available. The real point involved in the question was this—were Her
  726
  Majesty's subjects in Ireland not only to live under laws entirely different from those which were enforced in Great Britain, but whether the laws themselves, exceptional and strange as they were, were to be administered by a new and untried tribunal in a manner so loose and uncontrolled as would not, according to the decision of an English Judge, be accepted in the administration of the law in this part of the United Kingdom?
  LORD CARLINGFORDsaid, that when he saw the noble Lord's Question on the Paper he was rather surprised that such a Question should be put, and he wondered what the facts were which had caused him so much anxiety; but having inquired into the matter, he thought he should be able to relieve the noble Lord of the anxiety which he felt. On making inquiries, he found that the fact was, as regards the Sub-Commissioners, that the legal Commissioner took notes of the substance of the evidence given before him. He believed, however, that those notes, in cases of fixing fair rents, were not important elements in the decision of the Land Commission when an appeal was heard. The so-called appeals were, in the words of the Land Act, "re-hearings by the Land Commission," which heard the vivâ voce evidence fully, and employed its own valuer to value the land for its own purposes. The noble Lord would therefore see that the notes of the legal Commissioner were comparatively unimportant. But when a point of law was reserved by the Sub-Commission, the Land Commission was furnished with a full report of the facts and the evidence on which the question arose. The Land Commission itself, from which, of course, an appeal in the strict sense of the word, lay to the Court of Appeal in Ireland, always employed a shorthand writer, and all the evidence and the proceedings before them were taken down in full for the use of the Court of Appeal, if there should be an appeal; and when that was the state of the case the noble Lord would see that the admonition which he desired to give to the Land Courts in Ireland was quite unnecessary. No one could be more interested than the Land Commission itself in having appeals or re-hearings brought before it in a proper and convenient way, and they had no reason to complain in that

  727
  respect of the proceedings of the Sub-Commissions. In appeals from the chief tribunal itself, the Court of Appeal before which the cases were taken was furnished with full means of considering the questions submitted to it.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEsaid, that in the only appeal which had been taken from the Land Commission to the Court of Appeal the facts were insufficiently explained, and the Court had a difficulty in arriving at any decision in consequence. In disposing of the appeals which had come from the Sub-Commission, Mr. Justice O'Hagan stated that it was only on points of law they were disposed to change the decisions of the tribunal, and that they could not go into details as to the value of the holdings.
  LORD CARLINGFORDsaid, it was true that one of the Judges in the Court of Appeal did criticize the form in which the case of Adams v. Dunseath was brought before them; but he (Lord Carlingford) believed there was no reason to question the great pains taken by the Land Commission in bringing that case before the Appeal Court. The case of Adams v. Dunseath, as submitted to the Court of Appeal, was drawn up with the full consent and concurrence of the solicitors and counsel on both sides, and especially with the concurrence and to the satisfaction of the eminent counsel, Mr. Holmes, the Solicitor General for Ireland under the late Government, who raised the question on the part of the landlord.

CLAIMS OF PEERAGE, &c.

  MOTION FOR PAPERS.
  THE EARL OF GALLOWAYmoved for Copies of the Scottish Acts of Parliament of 1567, entitled "Ratification of the Erledom of Mar," "Ratification of the Baronie of Blyth;" also for Copies of the Scottish Act of 1587 entitled "An Act in favour of the Erle of Mar," as well as all other Scottish Acts ratifying grants or re-grants of Peerages with lands under Royal Charter, with a view to their being translated into modern English for the use of the Select Committee appointed to inquire into the state of the law respecting the claims and assumptions of titles of Peerages in Scotland, &c.; and, secondly, that the Act 10th and 11th Vict., chap. 52 (passed
  728
  25th June, 1847) in reference to "dormant or extinct" Peerages in Scotland, be reprinted with a view to the correction of a misprint in line 10 of the preamble on the first page, which recites erroneously the words of intitulation of the Act 6th Anne, chap. 23. The noble Earl said, that with regard to the first Motion, he had only to remind the House that they had been pleased to re-appoint the Select Committee of last year to inquire into the state of the law in respect of claims and assumptions of titles of Peerage in Scotland; and it was therefore advisable that that Committee should have at their command all the documentary evidence that could be obtained to aid them in their inquiries. The Scottish Acts of Parliament, ratifying Peerages with grants or re-grants of land already gifted by Royal Charter, were framed, however, in language which he feared would be hardly intelligible to the greater number of Peers appointed to serve on the Select Committee; and it was on this account that he now moved that they should be translated for their use into modern English. He had alluded to three special Acts, for the reason that he happened to be familiar with them; but he wished all other Scotch Acts of a similar nature to be included in his 1st Motion. As to the 2nd Resolution which stood in his name, he might relieve their Lordships' minds of one fear at once—namely, of its having any reference whatever to the controversial question of the Mar Peerage, and for this simple reason—that the Modern Act of 1847 he referred to had no bearing whatever upon any but "dormant or extinct" Peerages, which, of course, could not apply to the Mar Peerage, which, since its restoration by Act of Parliament in 1824, had certainly become neither dormant nor extinct. He thought it important to mention this, because the fact had evidently been lost sight of by the Committee, of which the ex-Lord Chancellor (Lord Cairns) had been Chairman, appointed in 1877 to report upon the question of the precedency of the Earldom of Mars. In 1847 a Committee of the House was appointed, on the Report of which the Act was subsequently passed, and that Report stated that in reference to the particular evil there complained of, there was no power in their Lordships' House to remedy it by a Resolution, but that it was neces-

  729
  sary to proceed by Act of Parliament. An Act was accordingly passed, containing various provisions. But, in the Preamble of this Act of 1847, there were quoted the titles or general bearing of several previous Acts having reference to Scotch Peerages, and, amongst others, that to which his Motion specially referred—namely, 6 Anne c. 23. In this Preamble the phrase ''regulating of votes" is cited as a part of the intitulation of this last-named Act. He had accordingly referred to this Act—6 Anne c. 23—to find out what "regulating of votes" its provisions enacted; and great was his astonishment to find that there was not a single provision of any kind whatsoever on the subject in any line from the beginning to the end of this Act. It was then that he looked carefully into the terms of intitulation of this Act, 6 Anne c. 23, and that he discovered that the phrase was "regulating of voters," instead of "regulating of votes," as cited in the Act of 1847. The "voters" thus referred to were the Peers assembled at Holyrood House to elect the 16 Representatives from their number; and the "regulating of voters" referred only to some enactments to guard against their each bringing beyond a certain number of retainers with them for fear of their being made use of to overawe the votes of any Peers present, for which the Peers guilty of such an offence were to be visited with the penalties of praemunire. This being the case, he thought it but right that the Act of 1847 should be reprinted, with the view of having the erroneous intitulation of 6 Anne c. 23 in the Preamble of the former properly corrected, which he begged now formally to move.
  Moved, That there be laid before this House, Copies of the Scottish Acts of Parliament of 1567, entitled "Ratification of the Erledom of Mar," "Ratification of the Baronie of Blyth;" also Copies of the Scottish Act of 1587 entitled "An Act in favor of the Erle of Mar," as well as all other Scottish Acts ratifying grants or re-grants of Peerages with lands under Royal Charter, with a view to their being translated into modern English for the use of the Select Committee appointed to inquire into the state of the law respecting the claims and assumptions of titles of Peerages in Scotland, &c.
  That the Act 10th and 11th Vict., chap. LII. (52.) (passed 25th June 1847), in reference to "dormant or extinct" Peerages in Scotland, be re-printed with a view to the correction of a misprint in line 10 of the preamble on the first page, which recites erroneously the words of
  730
  intitulation of the Act 6th Anne, chap. 23.—(The Earl of Galloway.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he had assented to the re-appointment of the Committee this Session; but he certainly did not anticipate, when he did so, that there would be interlocutory applications to the House as to matters which might or might not come under the consideration of the Committee. The Motion, in all its parts, seemed to him to be unprecedented and inexpedient. It was premature to judge what should be done to facilitate the working of the Committee before the Committee asked them to do so. The Committee could take cognizance of any Acts of Parliament, and it was inconsistent with their nature to lay them on the Table. If the Committee desired, it could multiply copies of the Scottish Acts, and if the noble Lords on the Committee were unable to translate any of the Acts into modern English, they could avail themselves of the services of an expert. That was quite within their competency. The latter part of the Motion was still more extraordinary. The noble Earl asked that an Act of 1847 should be laid on the Table with a view to the correction of a misprint, and the correction to be made was to put in "votes" instead of "voters." But the error—if it was an error—was in the original Parliament Bill of that Act, as it received the Royal Assent; if the Act were reprinted, it must be reprinted as it was passed, and not otherwise. An error could not be corrected by reproducing copies of it, and he was totally unable to understand what use there could be in doing so. For these reasons he could not advise their Lordships to accede to the Motion.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
  House adjourned at Seven o'clock till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.