Lords Sitting of 30 June 1882

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Highway Rates and Expenditure* (173).
Second Reading—Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 5)* (162).
Select Committee—Report—Tramways Provisional Orders* (125).
Committee—Justices' Jurisdiction (112–172); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 9)* (147).
Committee—Report—Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 11)* (152).
Report—Tramways Provisional Orders (No. 3)* (149).
Third Reading—Lunacy Regulation Amendment* (160); Local Government Provisional Order (No. 8)* (146), and passed.

JUSTICES' JURISDICTION BILL.
(The Lord Bramwell.)

(NO. 112.) COMMITTEE.
House in Committee (according to order).
Clause 1 (Repeal of 5 & 6 Vic., c. 38, so far as relates to trial of certain offences at quarter sessions.)
EARL COWPER, who had the following Amendment upon the Paper:—
In page 1, line 10, after "recorder," add, "or with stealing records, bills, or documents relating to real estate, and persons charged with offences as fraudulent agents, trustees, or bankers; or persons charged with bigamy,"
said, that anyone acquainted with the proceedings of Assizes must be aware of the great waste of power which there took place by the trial of simple eases, in which the punishment was, at most, two or three months' imprisonment. On the other hand, Justices at Quarter Sessions now tried many very grave offences, which required very considerable skill to deal with, and which involved very severe penalties. He believed that the manner

901
in which magistrates had conducted these complicated cases had been such as, on the whole, to command the confidence of the country. It should also be remembered that the ultimate decision in all these cases rested with a jury. With very great deference to the opinion of the noble and learned Lord who was in charge of the Bill, he ventured to think that some amendment of the Bill, in a certain direction, would be desirable. He had, therefore, placed on the Paper an Amendment, which he had intended to move, providing that cases of stealing documents relating to real estates, and various other cases, should be placed within the jurisdiction of magistrates.
THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)said, he would point out to the noble Earl opposite (Earl Cowper) that the Amendment he referred to was to be made in the Preamble of the Bill.
THE EARL OF POWIS, in moving an Amendment for the purpose of preventing the crime of burglary accompanied with violence being tried at Quarter Sessions, said, he thought that the criterion of the heinousness of burglary was whether or not it was accompanied by violence—
Amendment moved, in page 1, line 20, after "burglary," insert "if unaccompanied by violence."—(The Earl of Powis.)
LORD BRAMWELLsaid, that he could not accept the Amendment of the noble Earl. He thought that they must trust to the discretion of magistrates, in cases of that character, as to whether they committed to Sessions or Assizes. Practical inconvenience, moreover, would arise from the adoption of the proposed Amendment, because, if a case were committed to Quarter Sessions, no evidence of violence having been given before the committing magistrate, and it should turn out at the trial that violence had been used, the prisoner would be entitled to his acquittal for want of jurisdiction. He would, therefore, ask their Lordships not to agree to the Amendment. It was not his intention, however, that cases which were accompanied by personal violence should be sent to the Sessions.
Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
LORD BRAMWELLthen moved to omit from the clause the provisions giving jurisdiction to Courts of Quarter Session in cases of forgery. The noble and learned Lord said, he did not take that course because he thought no such cases should be tried at Quarter Sessions, for some cases of forgery and false pretences came very near each other. But the proposition to confer jurisdiction on Quarter Sessions with regard to forgery had alarmed a good many persons, and it was thought that cases of difficulty might arise which it would be improper for Sessions to try. Therefore, he proposed to leave them out of the Bill.
Amendments agreed to.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 2 agreed to, with Amendments.
Clause 3 (Public prosecutor in certain cases may order trial at assizes or Central Criminal Court).
Amendments made.
LORD BRAMWELL LORD BRAMWELL moved to add a Proviso to the clause, to the effect that no person who should be tried at Quarter Sessions for burglary should be sentenced to penal servitude for any period exceeding ten years. The noble and learned Lord stated that, though not himself thinking that it was essential, he adopted it in deference to the opinion of a learned Friend.
Amendment moved, in page 2, at end of clause, to add—
"Provided, That no person who shall be so tried shall be subject or sentenced to any period of penal servitude exceeding ten years."—(The Lord Bramwell.)
VISCOUNT CRANBROOKsaid, he hoped their Lordships would not accept the Amendment, as the Quarter Sessions had now jurisdiction to give higher sentences than 10 years. He objected to place this check upon the power of the magistrates.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERYsaid, he would be glad if the Amendment and others of which he had not received any Notice were reserved for the Report, so that he might consult the authorities at the Home Office, who had not yet had time to consider the Bill.
EARL CAIRNSsaid, the point was a simple one. A sentence of 15 years' penal servitude might now be awarded

903
for burglary, and cases sent to the Quarter Sessions were sometimes very serious. They ought not to give a power which would be different to the general law in these cases.
THE EARL OF MILLTOWNpointed out that a man might be tried for a burglary committed without personal violence, but who had been convicted on previous occasions of felony of a serious character, and sentenced already to 15 or 20 years' penal servitude; for such an offence a sentence of 10 years for a subsequent felony might be a wholly inadequate punishment.
Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
Remaining clauses agreed to, with Amendments.
House resumed.
The Report of the Amendments to be received on Thursday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 172.)

TUNIS—ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE.

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  EARL DE LA WARR, in rising to move an Address for Papers and Correspondence relating to affairs in Tunis, said, he was induced to do so in consequence of a further development of the French occupation of that country, which, as it appeared, was now in contemplation, and which, if carried out, would materially affect the interests of British subjects who were resident in the Regency of Tunis. He alluded to the alleged intention on the part of the French Government to suppress the Capitulations and to abolish the Consular Courts in Tunis, as to which he would ask the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether any information could be given? That intention, although it had not as yet been openly declared, was, he believed, no secret at Tunis, or at Paris, where it was freely discussed in the French Press. For instance, he might mention a statement which had come under his notice, and which appeared in The Journal des Débats, which said that the time had come—
  "De prendre complètement en main le gouvernement intérieur de la Régence et de l'exercer suivant les principes qui nous guident en Algérie."
  904
  It was argued in that journal that the Treaty of Kasr Essaid—the Treaty recently concluded between the Bey of Tunis and the French Government—was sufficient to effect this. Now, the 4th Article was as follows:—
  "The Government of the French Republic guarantees the execution of the Treaties at present existing between the Government of the Regency and the different European Powers."
  This difficulty, therefore, arose. How could the Capitulations, which were based upon existing Treaties, be suppressed? But an easy solution was offered. An additional Convention, it was suggested, might be concluded with the Bey which would modify the Treaty on this point. It was also said, in the same paper he had referred to, that—
  "Whatever it might cost, the French were engaged, by interest as well as honour, to establish a regular Government and Administration, and that such a Government could not exist with the Capitulations."
  The noble Earl might, perhaps, reply that these were unofficial statements; but he (Earl De La Warr) had often found unofficial statements had some portion of truth in them; and he had reason to believe that, in this instance, they represented the intentions of the French Government, if it were possible to carry them out. He would ask their Lordships to consider for a moment what would be the effect of this change. The Consular Courts established under the Capitulations would be superseded; British subjects, as well as those of other European Powers, would be placed under French jurisdiction as much as they would be in any part of France, and matters closely affecting their interests in all cases of civil and criminal jurisdiction would be removed from what were now the Consular Courts to whatever French Court might be established in their stead. He could not but think that this was a matter which demanded the serious attention of the Government, and he hoped the noble Earl might be able to assure them that the existing Treaties and Conventions which established and confirmed the Capitulations and Consular Courts in Tunis would be strictly adhered to. The noble Earl concluded by moving for Papers and Correspondence.
  Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for correspondence on the sub-

  905
  ject of the alleged intention of the French Government to snppress the capitulations and to abolish the consular courts in Tunis.—(The Earl De La Warr.)
  EARL GRANVILLE, in reply, said, he could not accede to the noble Earl's Motion, for the simple reason that there were no Papers and Correspondence on this subject. The only information which the Government had in the matter was that in the Chamber of Deputies, last December, M. Gambetta expressed a wish that he might be able to introduce some organization of mixed tribunals in Tunis, but not according to the plan adopted in Egypt.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

ARMY (AUXILIARY FORCES)—MILITIA OFFICERS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF SANDWICH, who rose, according to Notice, to ask the Under Secretary of State for War Questions respecting the Militia, said, that he did not give a fuller Notice because it would have necessitated a communication with the War Office. He complained, in the first instance, of the early age at which officers in the Militia had to retire, whereby certain officers felt themselves aggrieved, because they had been superseded in favour of junior men, and he had also to bring under the notice of the House the way in which the honours were distributed, which he did not consider just towards the senior officers. The modern practice seemed to be to assimilate the Militia as much as possible with the Army, and he objected very much to the amalgamation of the Militia with the Line. The Militia was an old Constitutional Force, which had always done its duty, and had always been ready to come forward when called for. But the effect of amalgamating a Militia regiment with the 60th Rifles, for example, was to make a kind of bastard battalion of the Line. They ought either to turn the Militia regiments into regiments of the Line altogether, or to leave them as they were, as he thought they ought to be left. He also objected to the system of depôt centres for Militia, and to their being sent away to be trained with regiments of the Line, and hoped his noble Friend would arrange that Militia regiments
  906
  should drill in their own counties. It was a serious thing to take away from the towns near which they were in the habit of being drilled the money that used to be spent among them. He also thought it very objectionable to send men to be drilled at a considerable distance from their own localities, at depots where there were, perhaps, some five or six officers and 70 or 80 men. That seemed a curious plan for keeping up depôts. Fifty men were lately sent to Winchester to be drilled; they found about 60 at the place, and, what with those required for guard and other services, hardly a company could be mustered for parade. In fact, the whole system of depôt centres was a great mistake, together with the system of linking battalions, the result of which was that half a Militia battalion was sent to one county and half to another. He asked, whether steps could not be taken to secure a more efficient Militia drill, by their own officers in their own localities, pointing out that the Militia was essentially a National Force, which ought to be under the control of its own officers, and not to be considered so much part of the Regular Army. He was glad to to see that some interest had been shown in the Militia lately by the illustrious Duke the Commander-in-Chief and by His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales. It would be for the benefit of the country that the Militia regiments should be more cared for than they had been, and he trusted that the War Office authorities would consider the grievances they had to complain of, and take more care in the future that they should be properly treated.
  THE MARQUESS OF EXETERsaid, he could corroborate all that his noble Friend (the Earl of Sandwich) had said as to the inconvenience of sending Militia regiments away from their own locality to be trained and drilled with the troops of the Line. The Militia regiments were territorial regiments, and a consequence of the course pursued was that in his own regiment they had experienced great difficulty in getting recruits, because the men objected to going long distances to the drill.
  THE EARL OF MORLEY, in reply, said, he had to complain that the general form in which the Question was put on the Paper was unusual and inconvenient, and the reason given for not

  907
  making the Question more explicit was that the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Sandwich) was afraid that information would be obtained from the Departments concerned, so that an answer might be given to the Question which the noble Earl desired to ask. That was a remarkable explanation of the form of a Question, which form was inconvenient to the House itself, because many noble Lords took an interest in Militia questions, and it was only fair to them that some indication should be given of the line that was going to be taken, so that they might be prepared to take part in the discussion. The noble Earl, however, had informed him (the Earl of Morley) of one subject that he intended to mention. He had heard with some regret criticisms upon the distribution of honours last year; he had hoped and believed it had been settled that it was inconvenient to discuss in that House the distribution of honours by the Crown; and it was not proper to insinuate that they had not been fairly distributed. As to the retiring of Militia officers, it seemed to be assumed that the object in view was the assimilation of the regulations of the Militia and those of the Line battalions. That was a mistake. The only objects were to insure that the officers should be thoroughly active and fit for service, and that there should be such a flow of promotion as would give juniors an opportunity to obtain field rank. He did not think they would experience any difficulty in getting juniors to fill the higher ranks on the retirement of the older officers; but that difficulty, if it existed at all, would not be lessened if officers in the higher ranks were allowed to stay to an indefinite age. As to the amalgamation of the Militia and the Line, there did not seem to be any practical utility in discussing it on the present occasion. Answers had been given over and over again to criticisms on the scheme, which was adopted on the recommendation of a Committee appointed by the noble Viscount who represented the War Office in the late Government (Viscount Cranbrook), and carried into effect by the present Government. It was equally unnecessary at that time to discuss the system of territorial regiments and the object of that organization. No doubt the numbers at the depôts must fluctuate, and Bedford or any other depôt might be low
  908
  just after recruits had been sent off to the Line battalion. He would admit that the noble Earl opposite was justified in asking for an explanation of the removal of regiments or parts of regiments to other than their own counties for training; but, as their Lordships were aware, there was a very important body of the Militia called the Militia Reserve, numbering about 27,000, who were bound to join the Regular Army when called upon; and it was thought desirable, when Militia battalions and the Line battalions to which they were attached were within reasonable distance, that the experiment should be tried of sending detachments of Militia Reserve men to drill with the Line battalion of the territorial regiment. That experiment had been tried last year in 11 cases; but no report had been yet received as to its result, though, so far from hearing any complaints about the system, he had heard satisfactory accounts of the manner in which the men had behaved themselves from several distinguished officers. On the other hand, he would admit that commanding officers had complained of recruits having to be sent away from their own towns to be drilled. There were reports both for and against the present system of drilling Militia recruits on enrolment as compared with the old system at the general training of the regiment; but the system had been in operation for less than 12 months, and the Department would have the means of judging whether it was better to adhere to the present system, or to return to the former one. With regard to the recent Circular which had been issued by the Commander-in-Chief respecting the mess expenses, its object was, as far as possible, to discourage unnecessary waste and extravagance in the Army; and he (the Earl of Morley) did not think that the noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Exeter), or any other commanding officer, need reasonably fear the penalties attached to a breach of that order.
  VISCOUNT HARDINGEasked, what measures were being adopted in order to raise the second battalions of regiments to their proper strength, in cases where the first battalion was serving abroad; and also, what steps were being taken to create a stimulus as to recruiting in the case of regiments which had not been able to raise a second battalion? He

  909
  must say that, in his opinion, the territorial system had not aided the recruiting of the Militia.
  THE EARL OF GALLOWAYsaid, he had also to complain of the existing system. Under it he had, for the first time in his recollection, been unable to get his own battalion up to its proper strength. He objected to the system of drilling by driblets, which was inconvenient and disagreeable, both to the men and the officers, and hoped they would return to the old system of drilling the regiment, because it was utterly impossible to keep up their strength under the present system. At present, the Line was supposed to be recruited from the Militia; but, under the existing system, a man might be enlisted in the Militia one day, and the next day, before he had had a single day's drill, he might be drafted into the Line. That was a perfect farce. It would also be a great advantage to appoint brigadiers over several regiments, rather than send regiments to be drilled at the depot centres. If that plan were adopted, there would be none of the unfortunate dual government of which so many complaints had been made, and as to which none of the present difficulties would have existed if the system of the noble Viscount opposite (Viscount Cardwell) had been carried out.
  THE EARL OF MORLEYsaid, as he had already stated, in reply to the noble Earl, when the Militia Reports for the year had been received, they would show how far the new system of drilling recruits on enrolment had succeeded, and whether it required any modification.
  House adjourned at Six o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Eleven o'clock.