Lords Sitting of 23 June 1882

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading— Lunacy Regulation Amendment* (160); Vagrancy* (161); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 5)* (162).
Committee—Report—Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 4)* (150); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 7)* (145); Artillery Ranges* (119); Cathedral Statutes Amendment, now Cathedral Statutes* (99–163).
Report—Roads Provisional Order (Edinburgh)* (78).
Third Reading—Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 3)* (122); Interments (felo de se)* (130); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 2)* (134); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 6)* (135); Local Government Provisional Order (No. 10)* (136); Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 2)* (132); Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 3)* (133); Land Drainage Provisional Order* (131); Customs and Inland Revenue Buildings (Ireland)* (142); Tramways Provisional Orders (No. 2)* (126), and passed.

EGYPT (POLITICAL AFFAIRS)—THE CONFERENCE.—QUESTION.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I wish to ask the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs a Question, of which I gave him private Notice yesterday. Owing to circumstances over which the noble Earl had no control, he was unable to be present, and I now beg to ask him, Whether Her Majesty's Government propose to take part in a Conference, to be held at Constantinople, without the consent of the Sultan; and, whether there is any precedent for such a step?
EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I hope the noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Salisbury), who was good enough to give me Notice of the first part of the Question yesterday, will acquit me of any want of courtesy on my part, or on the part of my noble Friend (the Earl of Kimberley), in not answering it yesterday. The fact was, I was attending Her Majesty at Windsor, and the Notice of the noble Marquess arrived after I left London, otherwise I should certainly have requested my noble Friend to answer the Question. With regard to it, I have now to state that the Sultan has objected to the Conference at Constantinople, but that the Governments of this country, of France and Germany, Italy and Russia, are all agreed to continue to meet at the Conference; and although Austria has not yet signified her intention to do so, in consequence of the objections of the Sultan, still I have reason to believe that she is not likely to separate herself from the other Powers. I must add, with regard to the Conference being held at Constantinople, that it is not intended as a mark or point of disrespect to the due rights of the Sultan of Turkey.
THE MARQUESS of SALISBURY: Of course, my Lords, it is very easy to say that this Conference is not intended as a mark of any want of respect towards the due rights of the Sultan; but it is hardly possible to inflict a more flagrant affront upon the rights of the Sultan. The Sultan of Turkey was admitted by the Treaty of Paris to the Concert of Europe, and is entitled to all the marks of respect, and to the benefit of all international traditions which affect the other Signatories to the Treaty. There is no doubt that to assemble a Conference at the capital of the Sultan to deal with the subjects of that Sultan, against his will, is about as flagrant an interference with his independence as it is possible to conceive. We have the authority of the Prime Minister for saying that no difference should be made between weak Powers and strong Powers; what, therefore, is right for the weak, is right for the strong. What should we think if Musurus Pasha were to summon a Conference at London, against the wish of the Queen, to consider the present condition of Ireland? I think it is not only an indecorous and unfair proceeding to interfere with a Power which has both

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historical and Treaty rights to our consideration, but it is also, in the present state of circumstances, exceedingly imprudent. On what Power, or what assistance, do you depend for attaining the objects of your policy in the difficult problem that lies before you? For no one can doubt that there are problems of exceeding difficulty. You have engaged to uphold the present Viceroy; you have engaged to remove Arabi Pasha from power; you have engaged to restore the status quo ante; and unless you do these things, the English name will be a laughing-stock throughout the whole of the East, from Egypt to Japan; and the ridicule which you will bring down upon your country will tell with fearful effect, not only on the commercial interests of its capitalists and merchants, but on the lives of its subjects. This is the difficulty of the problem you have to deal with, and your difficulty arises from the fact that you have to meet the strong feeling of Mohammedans against the interposition of Christian Powers. So far as we can trace any meaning in this movement which has crossed our path, it is part of the great Pan-Islamic revival of which we have heard so much. If that is the case—if it is a Mohammedan against a Christian movement—you are taking the most unwise step in the world in inflicting public affront on the head of the Mohammedan religion. That will be the case supposing your European Conference goes smoothly, and if you enjoy all the moral and material resources which it will place at your disposal. But supposing there is a hitch in it, and supposing you have to take sides, and supposing that greater difficulties than you now contemplate arise, it will be the Sultan, and the Sultan alone, who can extricate you from those difficulties. My Lords, Her Majesty's Government are taking a course for which there is no precedent, which sins grievously against International Law, and which, in the grave and critical circumstances of the country, is the most imprudent course they can adopt.
EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, the noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Salisbury) the other day announced that, being out of Office, no responsibility attached to him; about a week ago the noble Marquess further admitted that he thought it would be exceedingly inconvenient to discuss these matters in
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the present state of affairs. The noble Marquess has, however, thought fit, in that utter want of responsibility that attaches to him, but which I believe to be of the greatest possible importance, now to take this course. He first asks a Question in the simplest manner, and requests an answer from me, or from one of my noble Colleagues; and then, contrary to the doctrine the noble and learned Lord the late Lord Chancellor laid down, that you should not discuss a Question upon an answer—though I differ from him—he goes into the whole matter like this, where all the Powers of Europe are agreed, for within the time that has elapsed since my first answer I hear that Austria has agreed with the other Powers, and has entered into the Conference. He thinks it is to the advantage of the practical settlement of this question, when this Conference is being settled, and about to sit, to get up in this House and seek to damage it as much as possible, and to excite the Sultan of Turkey, against his own interests, to oppose the recommendations that may be made by the Conference. My Lords, I really will not argue the case with the noble Marquess.

STATE OF IRELAND (MUNSTER AND CONNAUGHT).

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  LORD WAVENEY, in rising to move—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for the appointment of a Royal Commission to investigate the social condition of the Provinces of Munster and Connaught, and to report thereon,"
  said, in introducing the matter, it would be scarcely necessary for him to state that he did not intend in any way to interfere with the proceedings of Her Majesty's Government; and, as far as possible, he would abstain from referring to any of the political aspects of the question now before them. There were two Bills in "another place." They would soon arrive in that House, and it would be exceedingly injudicious and irregular on their part, if they were to attempt to anticipate the discussion which they would doubtless receive, or to deal with them, without first having a knowledge of the result of their passage from, the other House, and the condition in which they then left it. There could be no question that the present time

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  was a most opportune moment for doing something that would be advantageous to Ireland, and that, he thought, would be done by the appointment of a Royal Commission such as that which he now suggested to their Lordships. The condition of Ireland itself, and especially the two Provinces mentioned in the Resolution, afforded a fitting opportunity for the working of the Commission, and there could be no doubt that an investigation made on the spot would be attended with the most beneficial results. In the particular position of affairs in Ireland at the present time, beyond all question the minds of the Irish people in the Provinces were prepared for new impressions. Coming at once to the Motion on the Paper, he might inform their Lordships that the reason why he had not embraced the whole of Ireland in it was that that country was not a homogeneous whole, each of the four Provinces having a distinctive character of its own. Therefore, he had selected the two Provinces mentioned—namely, Munster and Connaught—for the reason that those two Provinces had departed less from the habitual practice in the management of our political system than either Ulster or Leinster. That result was due to reasons that were peculiar in themselves to Munster and Connaught. He desired to point out to their Lordships that the Province of Ulster had long enjoyed an exceptional advantage in her trade, and in the peace and tranquillity which had prevailed within her borders. The same also might be said of Leinster. Ulster had also a special advantage, in which she was predominant above all the other Provinces. Owing to the manner in which the colonization of Ulster had been carried out, the colonists had ever since remained in union with each other, and attached to their leaders. Hence there was not in Ulster any strife between the landlords and their tenants. The reason for this was they belonged to the same race. They belonged to the same Christian Church; and, even in those cases where they did differ, they none the less understood each other, and their differences did not give rise to any hostility. This element of prosperity had led to the investment of capital in industrial pursuits within the Province, and hence it might be regarded as one possessing exceptional advantages. When
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  they passed into Leinster, however, they found it did not enjoy the same advantages, for there was a difference of feeling existing. There were fewer of the descendants of the people who settled in the country in the time of Elizabeth and James I.; but, nevertheless, the distribution of the soil among the Lords of the Pale had led to something like the same effect, when not interfered with by polemic and sectarian considerations. In Munster it was entirely different. That Province was, for the most part, inhabited by the descendants of those who had been driven from their original settlements in the other portions of Ireland, and hence there was an angry feeling entertained by them against those who had displaced them. The result was that there was at once a difference of feeling and of sentiment in regard of race. The tenants there held their holdings under an entirely different system. No doubt the system under which these holdings had been once held had been interfered with by the occurrence of foreign wars and the circumstances of the times; but the feeling he had referred to had existed ever since those dreadful wars, though Munster was largely peopled with the soldiers of Elizabeth. Then, again, when they went into Connaught they found once more a different state of things. They found almost unmixed the race that had inhabited the country for generations. They were the descendants of those who formerly inhabited the Province, and their feelings towards their countrymen in Leinster and Ulster was equally acrimonious as those of the people of Munster. They found a difference of race here also between landlord and tenant, and he knew how dangerous it was to mix up these. The Legislature, he thought, ought to try to discover some means of removing the discontent which existed in the South and West of Ireland, and it was most desirable that these differences, whether of country or of caste, should be entirely got rid of. The Irish, difficulty, whether great or small, would have to be faced, or they would have in vain made all the enormous sacrifices they had done during the last 50 years. Undoubtedly, reasons did exist for distinguishing between Ulster and Leinster and Munster and Connaught; but his Motion on this occasion had reference to the two last-named Provinces, and,

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  therefore, it would not be necessary for him to enter into the matter. As to the necessity of a complete and perfect change in many of the ideas now prevalent in Ireland, the present moment seemed to be a fitting opportunity for effecting a change. There was a growing conviction in men's minds that some change should be made in the whole system; that it was their duty, as it was in their power, to make the results of such a change profitable and advantageous to the country. They must warn them, however, against expecting immediate results. They should govern the Irish people in accordance with the sentiments of justice and fairness, and they should also endeavour to understand the people. Did they understand the people, and were they sure they had dealt with them in the way most acceptable to their sentiments, or best calculated to win their faithful obedience? From whatever cause, the question, at all events, would have to be answered in the negative. There might be, he felt convinced, great improvements of various descriptions introduced into the administration of Ireland, and a softening with regard to religious matters; and then they might discover that there were modes of dealing with the body politic which they had not anticipated. Let him recall to their recollections the peculiar character which obtained amongst country population, both in Munster and Connaught. It was known that the farmers in those two Provinces led a very simple existence, that they were largely influenced by tradition, and that there was a power of feeling among them which helped strongly the formation of their character; and it should not be forgotten that remaining, as perhaps they did, at home, they had a world-wide communication, and maintained a close connection with their countrymen scattered all over the world. Those communications frequently gave shape to those impulses, and it should be recollected that they had communications of a nature not only that would lead to peace and contentment in England, but also of a nature that entailed danger to the tranquillity of the Empire. Beyond these facts little was known of the inhabitants of those Provinces of Ireland to which he wished to draw attention. Nothing was more remarkable than the surprise caused,
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  even to the best-informed people in Ireland, by the events of the last six months. For instance, with regard to the question of rent, he was certain the incident of rent was never calculated at the point at which it had now reached; and no one had ever dreamed of the number of farmers who had sought the assistance of the Land Court, and which had greatly exceeded all reasonable computation made beforehand. It would be found, he believed, that there was not so much blame for that condition of things to be attached to the proprietary as some might imagine. Had they succeeded, he would ask, after these many years, in making English rule in Ireland as acceptable as they could desire? They had not. There was some reason for the non-success, and they were bound to seek for it. That something which was required was a general feeling of contentment among the population. They knew there had been great distrust and feeling of insecurity created by the unhappy state of Ireland, and foreign capital had fled, not to return; while the domestic capital, which was sufficient for all the wants of Ireland, was not employed there. There were in Ireland, deposited in banks or embarked in business in this country, millions more of money than was required to give to that country all that was wanted. He would not attempt to forecast the results that might follow an inquiry into the social condition of Munster and Connaught. Possibly emigration might receive a new sanction. As to that question, he might say that something might be devised which should induce Her Majesty's Government to adopt a large scheme which would give relief to an overburdened land, and be productive of benefit—of the utmost benefit—to Ireland, by giving greater scope for the industry of those who remained behind. The Government and the inhabitants of this country were fully aware that difficulties were imminent, and in order to solve the problems with which they were face to face, they ought to have more information supplied to them. The Government had already sent a message of peace to a people especially sensitive to an appeal to their feelings. Let them send now through that country a Royal Commision with a true message of peace, and the best message of peace that could be given to Ireland would be the sending

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  there of a Royal Commission, as he proposed, who, on the spot, should form, their own conclusions, and judge by the feeling of the people of the best mode in which to give them that contentment which all desired. He had not, in this particular instance, considered what was the position of Her Majesty's Government. He trusted that the principle that governed his Resolution would receive the assent of the Government; but, under any circumstances, he should have regarded his own conduct as inexcusable if he had abstained from bringing this matter under the notice of their Lordships. What Ireland wanted was contentment by the appointment of a Commission, who would conduct their investigations on the ground. These could best judge what would afford that contentment greatly desired by all, and beyond that there was one thing the necessity of which he would especially dwell upon, and that was enlisting the feelings of the people on the side of Government, for the question was, whether, after so many years, they had succeeded in making their mode of government as acceptable to the people as they could desire. An equal Church, equal laws, the administration of justice by officers appointed by the Crown, had not produced that effect. They were bound, then, to seek some reason for that fact, under the penalty that, if we found it not, our last condition would be worse than the first. He would now move the Resolution that stood in his name on the Paper.
  Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for the appointment of a Royal Commission to investigate the social condition of the Provinces of Munster and Connaught.—(The Lord Waveney.)
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRIVY SEAL)said, he had listened with great attention to the remarks of his noble Friend (Lord Waveney), who was perfectly entitled to bring before the House a subject with which he was so well acquainted. Their Lordships, he was sure, would agree with him (Lord Carlingford), that though the Motion, at that moment, was confined to a part of Ireland only—for what reasons he could not make out—volumes might be written and volumes spoken about it. He confessed, however, that his noble Friend had treated their Lordships with forbearance and mercy, and he thought that
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  his noble Friend, when he sat down, was entitled to say, as Clive once said of himself, that he was astonished at his own moderation. But, for his own part, he (Lord Carlingford) was not prepared, on the spur of the moment, to discuss the social condition of those two Provinces of Ireland. The practical question for the House and for his noble Friend was, whether anything would be gained as regarded the end he had in view—namely, the improvement of the social condition of Ireland by the appointment of a Royal Commission; and with regard to that point, it struck him (Lord Carlingford) that they did not suffer from want of knowledge. What, he thought, they suffered from, was from the great difficulty of dealing with one of the hardest, the most complex, and the most dangerous political problems that any nation, and especially a nation with a popular Government, had to deal with within its own borders; and he most certainly did not think they suffered from any want of knowledge upon the subject. As for sending that Commission through the length and breadth of Ireland, he could not conceive what its effect would be upon the minds of the people, except it would be to make every man in the country believe that the Government intended to make him and his family comfortable for the rest of their days. They had recently had two inquiries with respect to that most important matter—the agrarian relations of the country—and, however opinions might differ among their Lordships, they were all, in various degrees, responsible for the legislation which had been the result. He differed, he feared, from the majority of their Lordships in looking hopefully to the effects which improved tenure would work in time. He believed it would work infinite good in Ireland, and not for the tenant class alone. But no such legislation would do good until they could restore peace and confidence to that country. That was the immediate task of the Government, a task in which, with the assistance of Parliament, he hoped they would succeed. When they should obtain the happy result of a restoration of peace and confidence in Ireland, he hoped and believed that the legislation of various kinds which had been effected for many years past would bear its fruits; and Parliament, he was sure, would then be prepared to pass further

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  measures for the improvement of the country. He did not know what his noble Friend meant by calling the legislative measures that had been passed for Ireland sacrifices. Did he call the Catholic Emancipation Act a sacrifice, or the other measures passed for the relief of Irish grievances sacrifices? He would ask his noble Friend if, for the object he had in view, he thought anything would be gained by such a roving Commission as he had proposed, even if it were possible—as it was not—for the Government to assent to the Motion?
  LORD BRABOURNEsaid, his noble Friend (Lord Waveney) had spoken of his proposal as a message of peace. But Ireland had had many messages of peace from Her Majesty's Government, and they had not been so successful as to encourage them to send another. Her Majesty's Government, by their legislation in 1880, had created a social revolution in Ireland; the ordinary conditions of life in that country had been destroyed, inquiry was superfluous, and all Parliament had to do was to try to re-construct something out of the ruins. When Her Majesty's Government came into Office, they were told, on the highest authority—that of the Prime Minister—that Ireland was in a satisfactory condition. He (Lord Brabourne) was aware that it had been explained that this statement was merely a confidential communication to the Election Committee of the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government; but he could not for a moment believe that the right hon. Gentleman had one statement for his Committee and another for the public. Therefore, he would assume it to have been true. What, then, had the Government found? There were three classes in Ireland—the loyal, the disloyal, and those who were wavering between the two. What the legislation of 1880 had done was to strike a ruinous blow at the most loyal part of the population. Then, through the vacillation of Her Majesty's Government, the disloyal had been encouraged, and the tendency of their conduct had been to convert those who were wavering into disloyalty. It was at the class that was most faithful to the Union between the two countries that Her Majesty's Government had struck the blow. Because the landlords of Ireland happened to be the possessors of a kind of property
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  which competition rendered valuable, they had been deprived of that fair competition in open market which every other owner of property enjoyed, and by which alone the real value of their property could be obtained. Moreover, the Government had attempted the impossible plan of making the same property belong to two persons whose interests were, of necessity, conflicting, a plan which could only produce mischief and confusion. They had thrown overboard all the principles of political economy, and had placed the landlords of Ireland in a position which they would have deserved if they were precisely the opposite of what they were. Every principle upon which property had ever been held in England or any other country had been reversed in Ireland, and then it was pointed out that the condition of that country was not exactly what could be desired. The noble Lord the Lord Privy Seal could not assent to the appointment of the proposed Commission, because he said if the Government were to do so every man in Ireland would believe he was going to be made happy and comfortable for ever. Was not that exactly the line that had been taken by Her Majesty's Government? They had given rise to false hopes; the people were led to expect something they could not possibly obtain. Having done that, Her Majesty's Government were wise now in not consenting to a Commission which might serve to excite similar expectations. When Questions were asked and Motions were made with respect to the social condition of Ireland, he (Lord Brabourne) could not help saying that the state of the country had been made worse by the action of Her Majesty's Government. And yet anyone who objected to the policy of the Government was always told that the case of Ireland was wholly exceptional. Now, he did not believe that any country in the world was ever in so exceptional a position as to justify a complete departure from all principles of sound legislation, of justice, and of honest dealing with every class; and it was because the Government had done that the existing state of things in Ireland was so bad and its future so dark that no light would be thrown upon it until the Government abandoned delusive messages of peace and displayed a determination to uphold the law.
  LORD WAVENEY, in reply, said, that the sacrifices he had alluded to were sacrifices in the sense of order. He maintained that a roving Commission, such as he had advocated, although it must, of necessity, be a roving one, yet it need not be vague in the slightest degree, and it would be the means of gaining much knowledge at a time when every particle of information as to Irish affairs was especially valuable. He would not, however, persist in the Motion.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

THE ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY—THE VOTE OF COMPENSATION—THE OFFICERS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  VISCOUNT MIDLETON, in rising to ask the Lord Privy Seal, Whether Her Majesty's Government are now prepared to state their intentions with regard to the officers of the Royal Irish Constabulary? said, that the House would remember the proposal, made when the Budget was introduced, to grant a sum of money to the men of the Force, as some compensation for the increased expense and responsibility that had been entailed upon them during the past year by the disturbances that had taken place in the country. That expense and responsibility had unquestionably been shared, and more than shared, with the men by the officers, who, however, were to receive no part of the intended grant. Three weeks ago he had asked a Question on the subject, and had been told that the matter was "under consideration." Well, the matter had been now under consideration for three months; and, therefore, not to take the noble Lord by surprise, he (Viscount Midleton) had given him a week's Notice of his intention to repeat the Question in their Lordships' House. He did not know anything more discouraging than to be told that a matter was under the consideration of the Government, except one thing, and that was—that it had been referred to the Law Officers of the Crown in Ireland; and had he been told that, he should have at once concluded that it was postponed to the Greek Kalends. The noble Lord who answered the Question had doubted, at the time, the ac-
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  curacy of the figures he (Viscount Midleton) had then given as to promotion in the Constabulary; but since then communications had reached him from officers of the Force in various parts of Ireland on the subject, from which it appeared that there was abundant evidence of their correctness, and of the disappointment that was very generally felt. As they were aware, both the officers and the men were a most meritorious body of public servants, and it was very hard that an unnecessary grievance should be inflicted upon them by the delay that had occurred, especially as they were not permitted to complain in the newspapers; and he did trust that the answer that would be given on the present occasion would state not only that the matter was receiving careful consideration from the Government, but also that some definite steps were to be taken at an early date to relieve the anxiety with which the officers of the Constabulary very justifiably regarded their future prospects.
  LORD DUNSANYsaid, he rose to support the appeal of his noble Friend (Viscount Midleton), and to impress upon the Government, from a personal knowledge of the Irish Constabulary, that officers and men alike were always loyal and energetic, and ready to do their duty. The members of the Force had been unswervingly true to their allegiance, although they had been exposed to greater temptation than a military body had ever before experienced, having become obnoxious to the people among whom they moved on account of that very loyalty. Further than that, the performance of their duties had been rendered still more arduous by the changing policy of the Government. Indeed, the country had become so much demoralized, that, probably, for the first time in history, a Christian Bishop had made a statement which was tatamount to an avowal of Socialistic principles. It had been a slur on the intelligence of the Force to know that about 1,000 persons had been imprisoned as "suspects," and had been suddenly released during the extraordinary events following the Kilmainham compact, suggesting that it must have been wrong either to imprison them or to release them. If the country obtained Home Rule—as a recent speech of the Prime Minister implied it might

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  —one of the first things that would probably be done would be to get rid of this body of men, who, up to this time, had behaved so well. He should be glad to hear that it was intended to do justice to the officers as well as to the men, and hoped that the reply of the noble Lord the Lord Privy Seal would be such as to satisfy them on the point.
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRIVY SEAL)said, he could assure both noble Lords that the matter had not been in any sense shelved or postponed by the Government. They were quite as well aware as others of the high merits of the Force and of its officers. The matter did not belong to his Department, and, therefore, he was not personally responsible for the progress of the necessary communication between two Departments of the Government; but he was informed that the Lord Lieutenant had given the matter a most thorough examination; that the Irish Government had made a definite proposal for the settlement of the matter, and that it was at this time before the Treasury. That being the state of the case, he could state that a decision would probably be arrived at in a few days.

RIVERS CONSERVANCY AND FLOODS PREVENTION BILL.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF SANDWICHasked Her Majesty's Government, What were their intentions with regard to this Bill? He was sorry to find that the measure in question had not been mentioned in the other House when a statement was made by the Prime Minister with respect to pressing Business. The measure came before their Lordships' House some two or three years ago, and, although the danger occasioned by flooding had been acknowledged on all sides, nothing had yet been done. That danger was constantly increasing, and if there should be a general sudden flooding, it might be years before the damage would be remedied. The longer legislation was postponed, the more did the country suffer, and the greater became the evil calling for a remedy.
  LORD CARRINGTON, in reply, said, he was instructed to inform the noble Earl that the question was one which was considered of the greatest importance by the Government, and it had
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  not been shelved or postponed in the slightest degree. They were well aware of the importance of the measure in many parts of England, and especially to the county in which the noble Earl was interested. In spite of the temporary collapse of Business in "another place," he was instructed to say that the Government were not without hope that the Bill might be passed into law this Session.

EGYPT—EXODUS OF BRITISH SUBJECTS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF FIFErose to call the attention of Her Majesty's Government to the statement circulated all over Europe, by Reuter's Agency, that the British Consul in Egypt advises all British subjects to leave the country; and to ask Her Majesty's Government, Whether they consider this Consular action consistent with their intention, expressed in both Houses of Parliament, to maintain the status quo ante in that country? The noble Earl said that, in rising to ask the Question which he had placed on the Paper, he hoped it was not necessary for him to disclaim any intention whatever of embarrassing Her Majesty's Government by putting an inopportune Question, nor did he wish to raise what was described the other evening by the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Earl Granville) as a piecemeal discussion of the Egyptian Question. He simply wished to call attention—and he should do so very shortly indeed—to the action of our Consul in Egypt, which had caused, and was causing daily, a feeling of considerable alarm for the lives and fortunes of a great number of the British residents in Egypt. As their Lordships were well aware, the institution in Egypt which really concerned Europeans the most was the Board of Control. It had been the chief instrument in the remarkable development which had been going on for the last few years in Egypt, and it was obvious that, if it were to be of any use, it must remain in European hands. It was also equally obvious that, without it, the country must lapse into that state of anarchy which Her Majesty's Government had distinctly said they did not intend to allow to prevail. Besides the Board of Control, there had been estab-

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  lished in Egypt, by international arrangements, European administrations for the Daira Lands, the State Domains, the railways, ports, and waterworks; and besides those, still further various and numerous private companies and industrial undertakings had also sprung up, in connection with which large numbers of Europeans were necessarily employed, and which, to use the words employed by the Khedive himself a few days ago, had contributed immensely towards the prosperity and development of the country. All those who were interested in the future prosperity of Egypt, or who had friends or relations out there, had heard, with considerable satisfaction, the speech made a week ago in the other House of Parliament by the Prime Minister, in which he said that—
  "All established rights in Egypt would be maintained, whether they were those of the Sultan, of the Khedive, of the people, or of the foreign bondholders,"
  and that the policy by which the Government would be directed was that of—
  "The maintenance of all established rights, and the provision of due guarantees for those rights."
  What he (the Earl of Fife) was most anxious to point out—and that only in a few words—was, that no guarantee for those rights was possible without the presence in Egypt of the European administrators and employés—a great many of them British subjects—whom our Consul was stated to have advised to leave the country. Now, had they been advised simply to leave certain disturbed districts, and to go to some locality where they would be under shelter of British guns, in order to prevent the possibility of a massacre, that course would have been perfectly comprehensible; but, instead of that, a permanent exodus—and he used the word "permanent" advisedly, having received private information to that effect—had been steadily going on in Egypt under the advice and encouragement of the British authorities. Indeed, he thought he might say that matters had reached a climax, when it was found that the British Consular Surgeon in Egypt was actually telegraphing to the Lord Mayor of London, and asking him to promote a subscription in favour of the—
  "Thousands and thousands of poor Christian families fleeing from Egypt, leaving all, utterly destitute."
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  Could such a movement, which was nothing short of an appalling calamity to many of our fellow-countrymen, be really necessary when, if we were to believe the explicit statements of Her Majesty's Government, confirmed as they were only yesterday by the speech of M. de Freycinet in the French Chamber—and he certainly believed them—all those institutions in Egypt which he had mentioned and all established rights in Egypt were to be maintained, and when those thonsands of Europeans, whom he might truly call the agents of a beneficent European civilization, who were leaving the country in such numbers under the advice of our Consuls, would be as necessary in the future as they had been in the past? Was it contemplated that, after the holding of the Conference, which, of course, was to arrange everything amicably and satisfactorily, those poor people, who had been deprived of everything they possessed, or who had sold for a trifle, or had been obliged to abandon all the property they had in the world, were to return shortly as beggars to be reinstated in their plundered homes, or were they to be succeeded by others, who would eventually share the same fate? If it were a question of a war, or of a prolonged siege, the result of which might be doubtful, one could perfectly understand humane considerations being allowed to prevail, in order to save bloodshed; but there was no such doubt, because it had been stated most explicitly the other day, by the hon. Baronet the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Sir Charles W. Dilke), in the other House, that under no consideration would anarchy be allowed to prevail in Egypt. This twofold aspect of the Egyptian Question, however, was one that did not appear to be re-assuring. Confidence in London was not consoling to those who had friends and interests in Egypt, if it was only to be translated into "Panic in Egypt." It was not only that there were thousands of these unfortunate refugees crowding the ports of Malta and Cyprus; but we were told that the English Consul General in Egypt actually required the British engineers and workmen the other day to leave their post, even at the risk of a water famine at Alexandria. Since putting the Question on the Notice Paper, he had noticed, among the innumerable

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  telegrams which were appearing every day, one stating that some provision had been made for some of these unfortunate people by the placing of the Lazaretto, at Malta, at their disposal. Although that came somewhat late in the day, it was, no doubt, some slight alleviation to the alarming distress; but it was an alleviation which could only extend to the very lowest classes; and as to the commercial and industrial classes, it was perfectly evident that no precautions that Consuls could take for the protection of their property could be effectual when the owners had left the country. He had purposely refrained from adding a single word which might lead, in the present phase of the question, to a discussion of the political situation; he merely wished to draw attention to that particular point, and should be glad if he could elicit from Her Majesty's Government any assurance of a nature to arrest the present disastrous exodus from Egypt—an exodus which was now producing lamentable hardships, and must, in the future, arrest the progress of a country indissolubly bound up with the closest interests of our Indian Empire. The noble Earl concluded by asking the Question of which he had given Notice.
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I can assure my noble Friend (the Earl of Fife) that I have not the slightest disposition to complain, either of his interest in putting this Question, or of his anxious desire to have the information he has asked for, and still less do I complain of the tone of his speech as regards Her Majesty's Government; and I am sensible of his desire to avoid embarrassing them in one of the most difficult and complicated situations that I ever remember. With regard to one central point, he referred to the declaration of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in "another place." I can only say that the Government are unanimous in adhering to that declaration. With regard to the more especial case of complaint the noble Earl has made, that this exodus from Egypt has taken place under the pressure and advice of Her Majesty's Consul, all I can say is, that I really believe that that statement is entirely without foundation. We have no information in that sense of any sort or kind; on the contrary, the information we possess is exactly in the opposite
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  direction. I think I may, perhaps, persuade the noble Earl of that by reading a few extracts which I have here. I find that on June 15th, Sir Edward Malet telegraphed from Alexandria, saying—
  "There is now a panic in Cairo, and European employés are coming away in large numbers. There does not seem to be any valid cause for the panic beyond general feeling of distrust, which has seized all Europeans."
  On the 16th instant he telegraphed—
  "The Eastern Telegraph Company's clerks have been to me this morning to say they are in fear of their lives, and that they must go on board ship. I have done my best to tranquillize them. Four thousand persons arrived yesterday from Cairo. Mr. Beaman, whom I left in charge of archives, writes that officers say that strictest orders have been given, and that there is no danger to the lives of Europeans."
  I may also point out that the instructions left by Sir Edward Malet to the Vice Consul Borg at Cairo—for the Consul General was instructed to go with the Khedive wherever he went—were to exactly the same effect—
  "Acting under instructions from Lord Granville, I leave to-day for Alexandria. You will remain here in a position of much responsibility; but I have confidence in your calmness of judgment to take the best measures which may be open to you to promote the safety of British subjects who remain in Cairo. In case of imminent danger, I authorize you, in necessary cases, to provide the expense of the removal of families who cannot afford to pay for themselves at present. I should recommend Ismailia or Suez as points of embarkation, rather than Alexandria, which is already overcrowded with refugees."
  The noble Earl will see that this which has been done is perfectly different, and apart from any question of encouraging the exodus or alarming the people. From my knowledge of Sir Edward Malet, I am sure that he has shown the greatest courage and calmness in this matter; and I know that every effort made by him, in common with all other European residents in a responsible position, have been made entirely in the direction of tranquillizing the European residents. The noble Earl has referred to the alms which have been applied for. That, however, is a very natural thing. Here are people, under a reasonable and natural panic, flying away in a state of great destitution, and to provide for them in some way is perfectly different from any general encouragement being given them to leave as alleged in the Question.
  LORD HOUGHTONsaid that he was in Egypt for some time last year, and, from what he saw and heard while there, he could strongly confirm the impressions of the noble Earl (the Earl of Fife) as to the state of the country at that time. But for this accidental movement, whether excited by personal ambition or what was called national feeling, there never would have been any disturbance. From all the evidence they had, the people of Egypt were, he believed, as strongly convinced of the utility of the European Control as the noble Earl himself had been. He was also happy to be able to confirm from personal communications what had been said by the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Earl Granville)—that no encouragement whatever had been given by the Queen's official authorities to this unfortunate exodus. On the contrary, he knew from communications received from one of his own connections who had remained bravely at his post and would remain till the last, as well as from the noble Earl the Secretary of State, that everything which had been done by those who were in any degree connected with England had been good—they had done all they could to quell the tumult in the country and to tranquillize the minds of the European residents, even after the horrible tumult which occurred at Alexandria, by which so much loss of life was caused. The noble Earl (the Earl of Fife) had referred to the terrible condition of the people of Egypt, and he had not in the least degree exaggerated the state of affairs. At the present time they were in a state of social confusion and political difficulty, such as rarely occurred even, in those countries where there were complications between Europeans and Orientals; and the problem to be solved was one of the most difficult that had been known during the history of the world.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I would just remark that Sir Edward Malet must certainly have indulged in an exceedingly sanguine and optimistic view of affairs when he telegraphed to the noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville) that there was no valid reason for distrust on the part of those in Cairo and Alexandria. I think the noble Earl himself took a sounder view of the subject in saying that they were actuated
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  by a reasonable and natural panic. The observations made by the noble Lord who has just sat down (Lord Houghton) were very interesting and valuable as being made from personal knowledge, and, so far as I can hear, all those who have given information in this country on the state of Egypt combine in their testimony as to the admirable success of the efforts of the distinguished men who were Controllers in Egypt, and as to the benefit to that country from English industry which has resulted from that system, and also as to the terrible destruction of English interests and of the future of English investments and property in Egypt as a consequence of the terrible events of the last week. It is very natural that the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Fife) should long to know how the Government propose to restore the status quo ante. It is a problem to all of us. It is very easy to prevent a valuable work of art from tumbling down; but it is not very easy to put it together again when it has fallen and been smashed. All we have to do is to note the promises which the Government gives as time goes on, and to note the manner in which they are fulfilled. There are only two promises to which, in passing, I will just call attention, for I do not quite understand how they are both to be fulfilled. Tremendous injury has been inflicted upon English industries by the disturbances in Egypt. We are told that reparation, for that injury will be exacted. At the same time, we are told that the interests of the English bondholders will be carefully protected. These are both admirable objects, and I earnestly trust they may both be fulfilled; but I fear that they are destructive one of the other, because the only resources out of which reparation can be found for the injuries inflicted upon English subjects must be drawn from the interest which is due to the English bondholders.

LUNACY REGULATION AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
A Bill for amending the Lunacy Regulation Acts—Was presented by The LORD CHANCELLOR; read 1a. (No. 160.)
House adjourned at a quarter past Six o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Eleven o'clock,