Lords Sitting of 16 June 1882

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading— Poor Rates (113); Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 2) * (123): Artillery Ranges* (119).
Report —Places of Worship Sites Amendment * (77).
Third Reading —Municipal Corporations (Un-reformed)* (140); Irish Reproductive Loan Fund Act (1874) Amendment* (120), and passed.

ARMY (INDIA)—CAPTAIN J. B. CHATTERTON, BENGAL STAFF CORPS.

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  THE EARL OF GALLOWAY THE EARL OF GALLOWAY moved—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that Her Majesty will be graciously pleased to approve of Captain J. B. Chatterton, removed compulsorily to the Half-pay List on 26th April 1869, being reinstated in the Bengal Staff Corps from that date in consequence of its now having been admitted, on further investigation into his case, that the grounds upon which he was thus compulsorily removed to half-pay, viz., the terms of the despatch from the Government of India, dated 5th January 1869, adverting to this officer having reported himself 'unfit for duty whilst medical opinion was against him' upon this point, have now been completely disproved by the whole medical evidence as reported in the despatch from the Government of India of 21st February 1881, which substantiates the fact that in lieu of any conduct on his part calling for animadversion, Captain Chatterton was acting under the special general order of the late Lord Sandhurst when Commander-in-Chief of Her Majesty's Forces in India, 1236
  No.—dated loth March 1869, conveyed to C.,
  him through the usual military channel."
  The noble Earl said that nothing was more distasteful to himself than bringing before their Lordships a case of individual grievance; but this case had been the result of medical misapprehension, and it was right that it should be mentioned to the House. The reason why he had brought it forward was because Captain Chatterton was attached

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  to the regiment in which he had served. The case would have been brought on in the other House of Parliament in the presence of the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for India; but there were sufficient reasons for knowing that a private Member could not bring forward any subject in that House. The case against Captain Chatterton appeared to be that he put forward complaints of illness, and that the Medical Boards in India did not agree in opinion in regard to those complaints, and then, when a request was sent home asking what was to be done in consequence, a summary order was issued Compulsorily removing him to the Half-pay List. It did appear from the Papers that Captain Chatterton was ill at Calcutta, and that he was in the hospital there. The case had been before successive Secretaries of State, and they thought it should not be re-opened, but why he did not know, as it seemed to be a hard one.
  VISCOUNT ENFIELDsaid, his noble and gallant Friend was quite right in saying that this case had occupied the attention of successive Secretaries of State for India and of the Indian Government; but he could not agree with him in thinking that there had been any misapprehension in the matter, nor did he think that Captain Chatterton had been treated otherwise than with patience, consideration, and strict justice. If, after hearing the remarks he had to make, their Lordships should be of the same opinion, he would ask them to say "Not Content" to the Motion. Lieutenant Chatterton entered the Service in 1856; he was placed on half-pay in April, 1869, after somewhat less than 14 years' service. During that period he was absent from India on medical certificates for six years and a-half. In 1868, having rejoined after a lengthened absence, much unpleasantness ensued between Lieutenant Chatterton and his superior officers, owing either to his inability or unwillingness to perform certain military duties, on the one hand the officer in question pleading physical inability to do his duty, on the other hand the medical evidence not bearing out these grounds for non-compliance with the orders the officer from time to time received. As a matter of fact, the Government of India accepted Lieutenant Chatterton's own version of his case, and, instead of bringing him to trial for alleged disobedience of orders and neg-
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  lect of duty, they acted on his own asseverations, and considering that he had passed so much time on leave, and yet asked for another extension, they thought it best to place him upon half-pay. They could have done no more and no less in the case of any other officer similarly circumstanced as regarded the amount of previous leave that he might have had and the present doubtful state of his health. He could not understand how his noble and gallant Friend could look upon the despatch of February 21, 1881, in the way he had described it in the terms of his Motion, and in the remarks he had made in his speech. What were the facts? Towards the end of 1868 a Court of Inquiry was held as to why Lieutenant Chatterton failed to perform certain military duties; the officer's excuse was physical inability, owing to "a contraction of the left 'tendon Achilles.'" The Report of this Court was sent to head-quarters; the Commander-in-Chief addressed the Government as to the expediency of taking Lieutenant Chatterton at his own word with reference to his physical incapacity to serve, and removing him from the effective branch of the Service, as being totally unfit for the active duties of his Profession. Before the Government of India could take any action in the matter further difficulties arose with respect to Lieutenant Chatterton's non-performance of duty, the reason given by him being "palpitation of the heart." This further Report was sent on to the Government of India, and it was decided to recommend that Lieutenant Chatterton should be placed on half-pay. This officer was thereupon, in December, 1868, released from temporary arrest, under which he had been placed, and suspended from the performance of all military duties, pending the final official decision of the Government at home. Subsequently to these events, in March, 1869, Lieutenant Chatterton addressed a request direct to head-quarters, requesting to be allowed to choose his own medical attendant. To this the Adjutant General replied that—
  "Pending the orders of Government in his case he might consider himself on leave in Calcutta, and might consult any medical officer he pleased."
  This permission, however, did not in anyway affect the recommendation of the Commander-in-Chief made two months previously, that this officer should be

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  placed on half-pay owing to ill-health. Lieutenant Chatterton, therefore, remained in Calcutta, availing himself of the Officers' Hospital in that city, and nominally still on the roll of his regiment, pending the final decision of the Government in his case. There was a medical and surgical Report of this officer's case made in the hospital at Calcutta, confirming the existence of weakness in the left ankle joint, but not confirming the presence of heart disease. Towards the end of the month of April the decision of the Secretary of State to place Lieutenant Chatterton upon half-pay was communicated to him, and he thereupon left hospital and returned to England. Since that time he had been in receipt of retired half-pay of £127 15 s. yearly, the actual service performed by him falling short of eight years. Assuming that the conduct of this officer was irreproachable, that his services had been distinguished, and that he had become unfitted for work through devotion to his duty, he could have occupied no better position financially than he did now. Had the authorities in India granted him a third furlough, he would on his return to England have been placed on half-pay on precisely the same conditions as he was now. He did not wish in any way to reflect injuriously upon this officer's professional character; but he must maintain that there were no exceptional circumstances in this case to warrant such an act of Royal grace as the noble and gallant Lord in his Motion would suggest. He hoped, after what he had said, their Lordships would consider that Lieutenant Chatterton had not been treated harshly, with unkindness, or with injustice, and, therefore, that they would not consent to the Motion.
  THE EARL OF GALLOWAYsaid, he was very anxious that it should not be supposed that there was any malingering in the case. After what he had heard from the noble Viscount he would not press his Motion to a division.
  LORD ELLENBOROUGHsaid, Lieutenant Chatterton was clearly entitled to his passage, or the amount of it; and if the statements of the Under Secretary of State for India were correct, under all the circumstances this further grant might meet the justice of the case.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

  POOR BATES BILL.
  (The Lord Carrington.)

  (NO. 113.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD CARRINGTON, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, its object was to remedy a defect of the law in reference to the payment of poor rates. In some cases occupiers paid rates for half-a-year in advance, and though they might leave their houses at the immediate quarter, and the premises remained empty, they were obliged to pay the full half-year's rates; but this Bill would make the occupier liable for only a proportionate part of the rates, and he might add that nothing would be recoverable from the landlord.
  Moved," That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Carrington.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

PEACE PRESERVATION (IRELAND) ACT, 1881—SEARCH FOR ARMS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD FORBESasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether any organized search is being made for arms in the disturbed districts in Ireland; and, if so, with what results? The noble Lord said, he did not put the Question in any Party spirit, nor did he wish to import into it any controversial matter. All he wished was that, as arms were being largely carried in Ireland at the present time, as besides the murders and outrages of which they had heard lately, there had been, according to the official Returns, 396 cases of agrarian outrages during the month of May, the Statute enabling the Government to institute a search for arms should be put in force as generally as possible. Outrage, disorder, and terrorism were hanging like an unwholesome mist over that unhappy land; and although the Government were taking measures in "another place" to bring about a more satisfactory state of things, it might be some time before those measures were completed; and, in the meantime, it was desirable that the Executive should avail themselves of all the powers now at their disposal. They might be

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  availing themselves of the powers conferred on them last year to some extent; and it was to ascertain the exact manner in which they were putting them in force that he brought forward his Question. It was quite plain that all the outrages which had been committed in Ireland had been committed with guns and revolvers, save and except the horrible murders in the Phoenix Park. Landlords, magistrates, ladies, land agents, and farmers had been shot in all places and at all seasons. On the moors and in the coverts of England and Scotland there was close time for game; but in Ireland for the landlords and their agents there was nothing of the kind. These fearful outrages were committed on all days of the week— Sundays included. Nor, in this war against the landlords, were the landlords or their agents the only persons who Buffered. Sometimes it was a car-driver; and only recently a poor corporal had met with his death, not on the field of battle, but at the hands of skulking assassins, who fired at him from behind a wall. The worst feature of those outrages was that they were now of frequent occurrence, and in daylight. There had been an elevation in rank in connection with these distressing occurrences. "Captain Moonlight" having been raised now into "General Daylight." He would suggest that the Government should fix a certain day and a certain time for a general search for arms throughout Ireland. It might be said that he, as a Scotch Peer, had no connection with Ireland. It was true that he had no very direct connection with the country; but he felt very keenly with the loyal and respectable classes there; and, as a matter of fact, one of the noble houses in Ireland had descended from his own ancestors. If the question agitating Ireland were simply one of land, he should not have come forward in any way. They were all, of course, interested in seeing that the laws affecting the land in England, Ireland, and Scotland were not relaxed; but this was a question of blood, and he, as a Member of the House of Lords, felt himself impelled to take his present course, in order to clear himself from all complicity in the horrible outrages that were occurring in Ireland.
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRIVY SEAL): I am afraid the noble Lord over-
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  rates the effect of searches for arms in Ireland upon the horrible assassinations which have from time to time taken place there. I am afraid that under no possible system of searching for arms, or an Arms Act, however strict it may be, is it possible so to denude a district of firearms as to prevent the possibility of assassination. At the same time, I entirely agree with the noble Lord that the stringent enforcement of the Arms Act, or whatever form of that Act may be in force, is absolutely necessary, and that searching for arms is one of the proceedings which the Irish Executive is bound to take in disturbed districts. I know that the Lord Lieutenant is using all the powers at present at his command for the purpose of suppressing crime in these districts; and I know from the Irish Government that searches for arms have taken place, and do take place, though the result, I am informed, has not come to much as to the number of weapons discovered. But, as the noble Lord has said, the Bill which is now passing through the other House contains a more stringent, and, indeed, a much more efficient, provision with respect to the possession of unlicensed arms and searches for them. We are anticipating the arrival of the Bill containing these provisions in this House, and I only hope that it may reach us before long.

ENTAILS (SCOTLAND).

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF MINTOasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether they are disposed to supplement the information proposed to be obtained from the Returns moved for in this House on Tuesday last on the subject of Scottish Entails | by ascertaining the value of the lands under entail in Scotland under the several categories of the proposed Returns, the names of the existing heirs in possession thereof, and in what districts such lands are situated? The noble Earl observed that the Returns moved for a few days ago would be, no doubt, extremely; valuable, and he desired to express his satisfaction that a promise had been obtained that they would be given. He believed the Returns might, with great advantage to the public of Scotland, be made fuller, especially in the direction he indicated in his Question. A grievance had been made out of this subject on

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  behalf of the occupying tenantry, the statement being that on entailed land there was less prosperity than on unentailed land; but he thought it would be found that if they had the means of ascertaining what lands were entailed and not entailed, the prosperity of the former class of land was as high as the other. He did not wish to throw cold water on the Bill before the House; but he thought it was very desirable that further facilities should be given to ascertain the real facts of the case, and they should know whether the operation of this legislation would be felt over a small or a large portion of Scotland. He wished to know if the Government would produce information of the kind he had mentioned?
  THE EAEL OF ROSBBERY: I quite agree with my noble Friend that the Returns which he asks for would be useful; but I think he will not be disposed to hinder the publication of the Returns which were moved for by the noble Earl (the Earl of Camperdown), who I do not see in his place. I telegraphed as soon as I read my noble Friend's Notice to Edinburgh, and I find that the furnishing of these Returns he asks for would be attended with considerable delay. I therefore cannot promise them; but if he will be satisfied with my assurance that I will make inquiry into the matter at once, and see if they can be furnished in time to be of any use, and, if so, I shall do my best to furnish them.
  House adjourned at half past Five o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Eleven o'clock.