§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, I beg to ask the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether he can give to the House any information with respect to Egypt, and 1218 especially information with respect to the course which Her Majesty's Government propose to take with reference to recent events in Alexandria and the state of things there?
§ EARL GRANVILLEMy Lords, in answer to the noble Marquess, I have to state that a telegram was received yesterday from Alexandria which reported that all was quiet. The town was patrolled day and night, and the troops wore apparently doing their duty. The Khedive and Dervish Pasha had assured the Consuls of their confidence in the maintenance of public order. There was a considerable panic among the Europeans, and numbers have taken refuge on board the iron-clads and on an Egyptian steamer. Arrangements have been made to have the refugees removed in merchant vessels. One has been taken up by the Admiral, another at Port Said is to be sent at once to Alexandria, and two more are being engaged. Sir Beau-champ Seymour has been asked to telegraph whether these are sufficient. Sir Edward Malet arrived at Alexandria yesterday. He telegraphed at 10.30 P.M. yesterday that at present the military are behaving well, and keeping order in the streets—apparently in earnest. As to the measures which the Government have taken, and propose to take, in connection with the European Powers and with Turkey, with regard to Egypt, I can well understand that your Lordships must feel great curiosity in the matter, but it is out of my power to give the House any further information at this moment.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, I have heard the statement of the noble Earl with very great regret. I can understand, with respect to the general policy being pursued in Egypt, that the time has probably not come for announcing the intentions of Her Majesty's Government, or for discussing the expediency of the course which they propose to take. I can understand that, with respect to the relations that this country maintains with France, there must for the present be considerable reserve, though I hope it is fully understood by Her Majesty's Government, as well as by others, that we are free to obtain the objects of English policy alone, if we cannot attain them in concert with other Powers. But other more pressing matters have been going on, which Parliament can hardly 1219 pass over without notice, and with respect to which I think the reticence of Her Majesty's Government is misplaced. Great works of British industry are being destroyed; vast quantities of British capital are not only being imperilled, but investments that have developed during long years of confidence are being utterly destroyed, so that they cannot be restored again; and while the lives of British subjects, of British officials, of officers of the British Fleet are being sacrificed in a seaport town within sight of the Fleet, surely, my Lords, it is not too much that Parliament should ask to know what measures the Government propose to take for the protection of these imperilled interests and lives in this moment of acute crisis, and that your Lordships should ask for some explanation as to the position of the Fleet, and the functions which it is supposed to perform. For what was the Fleet sent to Alexandria? For what is it kept there? Many views could be advanced with respect to the object that the Fleet has to fulfil. It might be supposed that its object was to support the Government of the existing Viceroy; but that object it clearly has not fulfilled. It might be thought that it was to demonstrate the power of GreatBritain; but it has demonstrated exactly the reverse. It might be supposed that its object was to enforce the demands which the Government have put forward in most peremptory language, and of which, according to their declarations, they are prepared to exact the fulfilment if necessary. Among those demands one for the removal of Arabi Pasha stands prominent; but he has not been removed; and, if we are not misinformed, he has been taken into counsel by the Representatives of the Sultan with the knowledge of the Representative of England, with a view to the maintenance of that order, which neither the Suzerain nor the Foreign Powers can maintain. The Fleet, therefore, has done nothing whatever to fulfil the pledge given by Her Majesty's Government that they would exact the fulfilment of their demauds. It might be supposed that at least the Fleet would perform the humbler, but most useful and necessary, function of protecting British lives and property. But all that it has been able to do is to furnish a safe place from which British officers, powerless to prevent what has occurred, have been 1220 able to witness the painful and revolting spectacle of British subjects slaughtered at the water's edge. My Lords, if these things are true, it becomes necessary to ask why the Fleet is there, and why it stays there? This is called a Naval Demonstration; but what does it demonstrate? Does it demonstrate anything else than the impotence of Great Britain and the feebleness of her Ministers? If it had not been for the Fleet, much of what has happened would not have occurred: though the Fleet has done nothing else, it has been very potent to inflame the passions of the Egyptian people. It is not too much to say that upon those who sent that Fleet there, without the resolution to follow up the act with the force necessary to give effect to their policy—that upon them lies the responsibility of the bloodshed which was caused by the passions which the presence of the Fleet has provoked? My Lords, with no wish to interfere with the course of the policy upon more lasting matters which will be pursued by Her Majesty's Government, and only desiring to know what provision they are taking to meet the actual crisis, and to protect lives and industry that are actually threatened, we have a right to call upon the Government for a more full declaration of their actions and intentions. It would, undoubtedly, be a very humiliating thing to withdraw the Fleet; but to leave it there to look on helplessly and passively, while British menaces are being disregarded and British policy frustrated—while the work which British industry has laboriously built up during long years and at great expense are being destroyed, and while British subjects are being slaughtered, is a lower, a still deeper depth of humiliation.
§ EARL GRANVILLEMy Lords, at critical moments during the late Administration I sometimes, but not in exaggerated numbers, put Questions to Her Majesty's Government; but in no instance did I insist upon having information when it was declared undesirable that it should be given. The noble Marquess, in making this violent attack upon Her Majesty's Government, has not given any indication of the measures which he would wish to see taken, otherwise than by suggesting that it would be desirable that we should separate ourselves from France, forbear to ally ourselves with 1221 other Powers, and withdraw our Fleet from Alexandria. [Cries of "No!"] The noble Marquess certainly said that unless we were going to take active measures in Alexandria, it would be better that the Fleet should leave that place.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI said that it would be better that the Fleet should come away than that it should be the helpless and passive spectator of the destruction of British lives and property.
§ EARL GRANVILLEMy Lords, I deny that the Fleet is either helpless or passive. The noble Marquess, the other day, when he made a great condemnation of the policy of the Government, came before your Lordships with a telegram in his hand, and advised us to take immediate action by proceeding in a particular way in connection with the subject of certain earthworks at Alexandria. We, however, thought it more judicious to ascertain the views of those who were on the spot; and we found that the opinion of the Egyptian functionaries, of the English functionaries, and of our Admiral, was that we had better not take the sudden step recommended by the noble Marquess. The Admiral has a discretionary power to act; and I beg to say that I believe he will act in the way which may be most judicious. But we shall not be driven by any taunts into doing anything which we may think injudicious with regard to the lives of the Europeans in Egypt. With regard to the question generally so intimately connected with the whole subject, the noble Marquess admits—and I might be forgiven were I to express some surprise at his doing so—that he does not require further explanation now.