Lords Sitting of 15 June 1882

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading— Customs and Inland Revenue Buildings (Ireland)*(142); Public Schools (Scotland) Teachers*(143); Local Government (Gas) Provisional Order*(144); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 7)*(145); Local Government Provisional Order (No. 8)*(146); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 9)*(147); Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders*(148); Tramways Provisional Orders (No. 3)*(149); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 4)*(150).
Second Reading— Entail (Scotland) (115).
Committee—Report—Irish Reproductive Loan Fund Act (1874) Amendment*(120).
Report—Municipal Corporations (Unreformed)*(140).
Third Reading—Metropolis Management and Building Acts Amendment*(104); Boiler Explosions*(129); Local Government Provisional Orders*(106); Local Government Provisional Orders (Poor Law)*(107), and passed.

EGYPT—THE POLITICAL CRISIS—THE RIOTS AT ALEXANDRIA.

  QUESTION.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I beg to ask the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether he can give to the House any information with respect to Egypt, and
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  especially information with respect to the course which Her Majesty's Government propose to take with reference to recent events in Alexandria and the state of things there?
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, in answer to the noble Marquess, I have to state that a telegram was received yesterday from Alexandria which reported that all was quiet. The town was patrolled day and night, and the troops wore apparently doing their duty. The Khedive and Dervish Pasha had assured the Consuls of their confidence in the maintenance of public order. There was a considerable panic among the Europeans, and numbers have taken refuge on board the iron-clads and on an Egyptian steamer. Arrangements have been made to have the refugees removed in merchant vessels. One has been taken up by the Admiral, another at Port Said is to be sent at once to Alexandria, and two more are being engaged. Sir Beau-champ Seymour has been asked to telegraph whether these are sufficient. Sir Edward Malet arrived at Alexandria yesterday. He telegraphed at 10.30 P.M. yesterday that at present the military are behaving well, and keeping order in the streets—apparently in earnest. As to the measures which the Government have taken, and propose to take, in connection with the European Powers and with Turkey, with regard to Egypt, I can well understand that your Lordships must feel great curiosity in the matter, but it is out of my power to give the House any further information at this moment.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I have heard the statement of the noble Earl with very great regret. I can understand, with respect to the general policy being pursued in Egypt, that the time has probably not come for announcing the intentions of Her Majesty's Government, or for discussing the expediency of the course which they propose to take. I can understand that, with respect to the relations that this country maintains with France, there must for the present be considerable reserve, though I hope it is fully understood by Her Majesty's Government, as well as by others, that we are free to obtain the objects of English policy alone, if we cannot attain them in concert with other Powers. But other more pressing matters have been going on, which Parliament can hardly

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  pass over without notice, and with respect to which I think the reticence of Her Majesty's Government is misplaced. Great works of British industry are being destroyed; vast quantities of British capital are not only being imperilled, but investments that have developed during long years of confidence are being utterly destroyed, so that they cannot be restored again; and while the lives of British subjects, of British officials, of officers of the British Fleet are being sacrificed in a seaport town within sight of the Fleet, surely, my Lords, it is not too much that Parliament should ask to know what measures the Government propose to take for the protection of these imperilled interests and lives in this moment of acute crisis, and that your Lordships should ask for some explanation as to the position of the Fleet, and the functions which it is supposed to perform. For what was the Fleet sent to Alexandria? For what is it kept there? Many views could be advanced with respect to the object that the Fleet has to fulfil. It might be supposed that its object was to support the Government of the existing Viceroy; but that object it clearly has not fulfilled. It might be thought that it was to demonstrate the power of GreatBritain; but it has demonstrated exactly the reverse. It might be supposed that its object was to enforce the demands which the Government have put forward in most peremptory language, and of which, according to their declarations, they are prepared to exact the fulfilment if necessary. Among those demands one for the removal of Arabi Pasha stands prominent; but he has not been removed; and, if we are not misinformed, he has been taken into counsel by the Representatives of the Sultan with the knowledge of the Representative of England, with a view to the maintenance of that order, which neither the Suzerain nor the Foreign Powers can maintain. The Fleet, therefore, has done nothing whatever to fulfil the pledge given by Her Majesty's Government that they would exact the fulfilment of their demauds. It might be supposed that at least the Fleet would perform the humbler, but most useful and necessary, function of protecting British lives and property. But all that it has been able to do is to furnish a safe place from which British officers, powerless to prevent what has occurred, have been
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  able to witness the painful and revolting spectacle of British subjects slaughtered at the water's edge. My Lords, if these things are true, it becomes necessary to ask why the Fleet is there, and why it stays there? This is called a Naval Demonstration; but what does it demonstrate? Does it demonstrate anything else than the impotence of Great Britain and the feebleness of her Ministers? If it had not been for the Fleet, much of what has happened would not have occurred: though the Fleet has done nothing else, it has been very potent to inflame the passions of the Egyptian people. It is not too much to say that upon those who sent that Fleet there, without the resolution to follow up the act with the force necessary to give effect to their policy—that upon them lies the responsibility of the bloodshed which was caused by the passions which the presence of the Fleet has provoked? My Lords, with no wish to interfere with the course of the policy upon more lasting matters which will be pursued by Her Majesty's Government, and only desiring to know what provision they are taking to meet the actual crisis, and to protect lives and industry that are actually threatened, we have a right to call upon the Government for a more full declaration of their actions and intentions. It would, undoubtedly, be a very humiliating thing to withdraw the Fleet; but to leave it there to look on helplessly and passively, while British menaces are being disregarded and British policy frustrated—while the work which British industry has laboriously built up during long years and at great expense are being destroyed, and while British subjects are being slaughtered, is a lower, a still deeper depth of humiliation.
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, at critical moments during the late Administration I sometimes, but not in exaggerated numbers, put Questions to Her Majesty's Government; but in no instance did I insist upon having information when it was declared undesirable that it should be given. The noble Marquess, in making this violent attack upon Her Majesty's Government, has not given any indication of the measures which he would wish to see taken, otherwise than by suggesting that it would be desirable that we should separate ourselves from France, forbear to ally ourselves with

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  other Powers, and withdraw our Fleet from Alexandria. [Cries of "No!"] The noble Marquess certainly said that unless we were going to take active measures in Alexandria, it would be better that the Fleet should leave that place.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I said that it would be better that the Fleet should come away than that it should be the helpless and passive spectator of the destruction of British lives and property.
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I deny that the Fleet is either helpless or passive. The noble Marquess, the other day, when he made a great condemnation of the policy of the Government, came before your Lordships with a telegram in his hand, and advised us to take immediate action by proceeding in a particular way in connection with the subject of certain earthworks at Alexandria. We, however, thought it more judicious to ascertain the views of those who were on the spot; and we found that the opinion of the Egyptian functionaries, of the English functionaries, and of our Admiral, was that we had better not take the sudden step recommended by the noble Marquess. The Admiral has a discretionary power to act; and I beg to say that I believe he will act in the way which may be most judicious. But we shall not be driven by any taunts into doing anything which we may think injudicious with regard to the lives of the Europeans in Egypt. With regard to the question generally so intimately connected with the whole subject, the noble Marquess admits—and I might be forgiven were I to express some surprise at his doing so—that he does not require further explanation now.

ENTAIL (SCOTLAND) BILL.
(The Earl of Rosebery.)
ENTAIL (SCOTLAND) BILL.

  (No. 115.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl of Rosebery.)
  EARL CAIRNSsaid, he did not intend to oppose the Bill at this stage. On the contrary, from his present information, he was disposed to give it his support. He wished, however, to urge upon his
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  noble Friend the desirability of allowing a reasonably long period to elapse before the stage of Committee, so as to enable the House to consider the Bill carefully. Amongst other things, there was a power in the measure very similar to the Settled Land Bill, which had passed through their Lordships' House, and was now in "another place." Under the present Bill, unless he were mistaken, the money produced from a sale in Scotland must be invested in the estate and be subject to the restrictions of the entail; but under the Settled Land Bill the money might be used for various other purposes—for example, the improvement of other land. Ho was by no means certain that the securities with regard to the money produced by the sale of land were as wide as they should be in the present Bill.
  THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCHsaid, he was not going to oppose the second reading of the Bill; but he thought some more information with regard to it was wanted. His noble Friend ought to have given some general details as to the object of the Bill. There had been so many alterations of late in the Law of Entail in Scotland that it was very difficult to know what the law was. In the 7th and 10th clauses there were some important points, these provisions being of an extremely stringent character. There might be very good reasons for the next heir refusing his consent to the disentailing of the land; but if he did, as he understood the Bill, the heir in possession had only to apply to the Court. The Court was not called upon to make an investigation to satisfy itself that the application was right and good; but it should immediately proceed to direct a sale as if the consent had been obtained, whether the heir liked it or not. Cases might arise with regard to minors, in which such powers as these might lead to great hardships. He referred to these points to show that the noble Earl in charge of the Bill ought to direct his attention to them. The Bill had been brought on for second reading so rapidly that he had not had time to communicate with Scotland and obtain the views of the Legal Profession in regard to it, or to ascertain the general feeling of the country. Moreover, the half-yearly county meetings were all over, and there would be no opportunity, at any rate for some time, to obtain an.

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  expression of opinion from them. He thought the noble Earl should allow them ample time, though, of course, he would not ask for a very considerable delay, before taking the Bill in Committee. It would be necessary to consider several Amendments, which it would take some time to prepare.
  THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANsaid, it seemed to him the object of the Bill was practically to do away with entails in Scotland altogether. As be understood the provision, any heir of entail in possession would be able to disentail his estate without the consent or against the wishes of the next heir of entail. There would be no power to prevent the disentail by the fact that the next heir of entail was under 21 years of age, or of any legal disability. He was not at all opposed to the principle of the Bill; But he hoped the noble Earl (the Earl of Rosebery) would, when the Bill came into Committee, explain what would be the practical effect of its operation. He quite agreed, although there had been many Entail Bills for Scotland, that it was highly desirable that some such Bill as this should be passed, because at this moment it was almost impossible to understand exactly what the law really was, there were so many different cases. There were the cases of those old entails before the passing of the Rutherford Act; there were the new entails subsequent to the Act, and the entails which had been altered by the Act of 1875. In consequence of the different Acts, which only applied to some entails and not to all, there was a state of confusion, and he thought it was highly desirable to put a stop to that state of things. He hoped the noble Earl would agree to postpone the Committee for some little time, so that if the Bill passed it would be a satisfactory one, and that they should not require any further measures dealing with the same subject.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: My Lords, as it does not appear that any other noble Lords wish to address the House, I will, with your permission, say a very few words in reply to, or in acknowledgment of, what has been said; because, as a matter of fact, my first duty is to thank the House very sincerely for the spirit in which it has approached the consideration of this Bill. As regards what has been said about the haste with which this Bill has come to the
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  second reading, I will only say that, having heard no word of objection privately or publicly against the Bill, I fixed the second reading for to-day; but if any noble Lord had wished me to postpone it, and given mo the slightest intimation to that effect, I should have thought it my duty to accede to the request. I need hardly say that any day which is convenient to the noble and learned Earl (Earl Cairns) and the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Buccleuch) will be fixed for Committee on the Bill. As regards what the noble and learned Earl said, I admit that, in my opinion, there is very great force in it. I do not myself think that the uses to which the entail money are to be applied under the Bill are sufficiently wide; but, in introducing a Bill of this nature to your Lordships' House, it is necessary for the Government to consider not merely what is desirable in the abstract, but the attitude which might be maintained by noble Lords towards it; and, therefore, I think we introduced a Bill in this respect, as in others, of an extremely moderate character. As to what fell from the noble Duke, I have to thank him very warmly for not offering his opposition—which would necessarily be a most powerful opposition—to the Bill. It is quite true that the next heir under this Bill will not have the option or power of opposing a sale, but it is true that his interest will be preserved from the result of the sale; and I would remark that, if the opposition of the next heir were to be valid against such a sale, it would be practically of no use bringing in a Bill at all; because under the Act of 1875, passed under the late Government, the power given was to dispense practically with all consent except that of the next heir; and, therefore, if we did not dispense with the consent, and make one step in advance, it would have been useless bringing in a Bill at all. The noble Marquess (the Marquess of Lothian), whoso support of the Bill I must also acknowledge, seemed to be a little vague as to the main object of the Bill. The object of the Bill may be stated in one word; it is, that no man in future, no landed proprietor, need remain under entail unless he chooses; but all the interests which have been hitherto respected are respected now. If the heirs of these estates get their due proportion, I do not think there is much to complain

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  of. The noble Duke, I think, complained that I had not offered any explanation of this important measure. The fact is, I did offer an explanation when I introduced the Bill—only the audience was exceedingly limited. At the suggestion of the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury), I have added a Memorandum to the Bill, which will give a far more lucid explanation than I could give. I do not know that there is anything else which has fallen from the noble Lord that renders it necessary for me to say more. I can only repeat my thanks to noble Lords for the spirit in which they have received this measure, and ask them to give it a second reading. I shall consult their convenience in naming a day for the Committee stage.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday the 29th instant.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.