Lords Sitting of 13 June 1882

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Election of Representative Peers (Ireland)*(137); Intermediate Education (Ireland)* (138).
Second Reading —Irish Reproductive Loan Fund Act (1874) Amendment (120).
Committee — Municipal Corporations (Unreformed)* (79–140); Places of Worship Sites Amendment* (77–141).
Committee — Report — Metropolis Management and Building Acts Amendment (104);Local Government Provisional Orders * (106);Local Government Provisional Orders (Poor Law)* (107).
Report —Pluralities Acts Amendment* (102–139); Boiler Explosions* (129).
Third Reading —Union of Benefices (London) *(118); Imprisonment for Contumacy (103),and passed.

EGYPT (LATEST TELEGRAMS).

  OBSERVATIONS.
  EARL GRANVILLE: I beg to communicate to your Lordships the latest news we have from Egypt, of this day's date. The Khedive left Cairo at 10 o'clock this morning with Dervish Pasha for Alexandria. All passed off quietly. Mr. Cookson's state is satisfactory, but he is ordered complete rest. Sir Edward Malet has been instructed to follow the Khedive to Alexandria. Alexandria is quiet, and the shops are being re-opened. The Egyptian garrison there has been reinforced.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Is there any fresh intelligence respecting the movements of Arabi Pasha?
  EARL GRANVILLE: None whatever.

PLURALITIES ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
(The Lord Bishop of Exeter.)
(NOS. 74–102.) REPORT.
Amendments reported (according to order).
On Motion of The Bishop of EXETER, the following Amendment was made:—
Clause 15 (Notices, &c. may be sent by post in prepaid letter).
In line 15, at the end of the clause add—
("And where a spiritual person is out of England without licence of non-residence, and without having made due provision for the performance of his ecclesiastical duties during his absence, every monition, instrument, or notice to he served on him pursuant to any of the provisions of the first-mentioned Act, may he served in the manner in section one hundred and twelve of the same Act provided in the case of a spiritual person who cannot be found; and the words 'place of residence' in that section shall mean place of residence in England.'")
Bill to be read 3a on Monday next; and to be printed as amended. (No. 139.)

IMPRISONMENT FOE CONTUMACY BILL.—(Nos. 91–103.)
(The Lord Archbishop of Canterbury.)
IMPRISONMENT FOE CONTUMACY BILL.—(Nos. 91–103.)

  THIRD READING.
  Order of the Day for the Third Beading read.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 3a."—[The Lord Archbishop of Canterbury.')
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYsaid, that he should not offer any opposition to the Bill. He could not, however, but regret that the Bill brought in by his noble Friend (Earl Beauchamp) had not been accepted in preference to the one before their Lordships.
  EARL FORTESCUEsaid, that he also must protest against the passing of this Bill into law. They were all agreed that imprisonment was a most inappropriate punishment for a clergyman of exemplary life, who thought it his conscientious duty to resist the law under which he held the benefice to which he clung. A more appropriate remedy for a clergyman who persisted in his contumacy was incorporated in the Bill which passed their Lordships' House last Session. He regretted very much that the
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  present measure had been substituted for one which was not only more appropriate, but was more likely to conduce to the interests of the parishioners still nominally under the clergyman's charge. The best clause in the Bill seemed to be that which limited its duration to three years; and he hoped that before the end of that time some measure for dealing more satisfactorily and on sounder principles with contumacious clergymen would be passed.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 3a accordingly; an Amendment made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

IRISH REPRODUCTIVE LOAN FUND ACT (1874) AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 120.)
(The Viscount Monck.)
IRISH REPRODUCTIVE LOAN FUND ACT (1874) AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 120.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Beading read.
  VISCOUNT MONCK,in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that the nucleus of the fund was formed from the balance of a large subscription in the City of London in 1822, which had been raised to assist those then suffering from distress in the Western counties of Ireland. It amounted to over £50,000, and was vested in Trustees for the benefit of the counties of Sligo, Roscommon, Tipperary, &c. In 1844 the Trustees were incorporated into a Company, and the Company so formed was called the Irish Reproductive Loan Fund Institution, and its object was to lend money in various counties in Ireland, a certain sum being apportioned by the Trustees to each of these counties. By the Act 11 & 12 Vict, c. 115, which was passed in 1848, this institution was dissolved, and the fund was transferred by the Act to the Crown, with the same trusts. In 1874 the fund was transferred to the Board of Works in Ireland and that Board was empowered, in addition to the original objects, to lend to counties near the sea portions of the fund for the promotion of the fisheries of Ireland. By the 5th section of the Act, Sub-sections 2 and 3, the maximum amount in any one year to be given to any county was not to exceed one-fourth of the sum standing in the previous year to the credit of the county, and the fishery loans were not to exceed half the sum standing to the account. The operation of the provisions had been found extremely

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  beneficial, and the object of the Bill he asked their Lordships to give a second reading to was to repeal these two subsections, limiting the amount which the Board of Works could advance for the purpose of fisheries, and to enable them to grant the entire of the amount to the maritime counties for fishery purposes. It also proposed to make these advances to fishermen in kind instead of in money by enabling the Commissioners of fisheries to purchase the nets, boats, and other things required, and supply them to the fishermen. The Commissioners had access to a much larger and better market, and would be able to procure these things at a cheaper rate and of better quality than the fishermen could do. Another provision was to increase the summary power of the Board with regard to recovering loans. That was the entire scope of the Bill. No objection had been made to it in the other House, and he trusted their Lordships would give it a second reading.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

METROPOLIS MANAGEMENT AND BUILDING ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 104.)
(The Lord Thurlow.)
METROPOLIS MANAGEMENT AND BUILDING ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 104.)

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to order).
  Clauses 1 to 5, inclusive, agreed to.
  Clause 6 (Preventing obstructions of streets).
  THE EARL OF MILLTOWNcomplained that the Bill did not authorize the Board of Works to deal with the bars, gates, and other obstructions existing in certain parts of London, and especially in Pimlico and Bloomsbury, in which latter district they were peculiarly inconvenient. In Gordon Street, Euston Square, the notice affixed to the gate was to the effect that by permission of the Duke of Bedford, and during His Grace's pleasure, carriages and cabs might pass through within certain hours; but no wagons or other heavy vehicles were allowed without special permission. The date was July, 1835. Now, that, he submitted, was not a notice that ought to be put up in a London street in the last quarter of the 19th century. Its terms gave one the idea that there was
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  nothing to prevent the Duke of Bedford from closing the street altogether if he chose to do so. The restriction might have been right and proper originally, when the Bedford estate was on the outskirts of London; but now that a large part of the Metropolis lay North of the New Road the bars and gates caused great inconvenience, and their maintenance was an extreme instance of the assertion of the rights of property. Both the noble Dukes (the Duke of Bedford and the Duke of Westminster) voted for the Land Act of 1881, under which those possessed of land in Ireland had had their rents reduced 25 per cent without a shadow of compensation. Under these circumstances, he felt convinced that these two noble Dukes would gladly embrace the opportunity of proving the sincerity of the opinion which they held last year by sacrificing their right to any compensation for the loss which they might sustain on the opening up of these squares and other places.
  Amendment moved,
  At end of clause add ("and in case of any such obstruction as aforesaid, erected by any person whatever, which is already in existence, the Board may, if they think fit, in like manner give such notice as aforesaid, and demolish or remove such obstruction as above provided.")— {The Earl of Milltown.)
  LOUD THURLOWsaid, he could not accept the Amendment, which would in its effect be retrospective.
  THE EARL OF MILLTOWNexplained that as he had proposed to inflict no penalty it would not be retrospective.
  LORD THURLOWsaid, that the view of the Metropolitan Board of Works was that it would be retrospective. At any rate, the Amendment would open the door to a large variety of questions affecting the properties of the Metropolis, which would involve questions of compensation. It was to be remembered that in the case of ordinary obstructions the Board had power to proceed by way of indictment. The object of the clause was to prevent anyone who had opened a street with the consent of the Board from closing it again without their sanction.
  Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
  Clause agreed to.
  Remaining Clauses agreed to.
  Bill reported without amendment; and to be read 3a on Thursday next.

FOOD SUPPLY—IMPORT OF FROZEN SHEEP.

  QUESTION. OBSRVATIONS.
  LORD LAMINGTONasked, If the attention of Her Majesty's Government has been called to the recent importations of frozen sheep from New Zealand; and, whether, in the interest of the British producer and consumer, it may not be desirable to introduce a Bill to compel the retail dealers to specify the description of meat they are selling, and imposing heavy penalties on any person who sells imported meat as home produce? The noble Lord observed that in bringing this question forward it was not his intention to enter into any argument in favour of protective duties, because his impression was, that, give the English farmers a fair season and fair play, they could compete with the foreigner; but not only should they, but the consumer also, have fair play. Their Lordships would see that within the last few days a vessel had arrived in England from New Zealand with a cargo of 5,000 frozen sheep. That meat could be sold at (id. or 7d. per lb., with a profit on the sale, and it would do no harm whatever to the English producer; because, as their Lordships were well aware, there had been a great increase in the home supply, there being no less than 7,000,000 more sheep in the British Islands now than in 1874. Consequently, there was a supply of the best home produce for the wealthier classes who could afford to pay for it. The consumer ought, of course, to be able to buy the cheaper meat if he wished it; but it was not at all clear that he was allowed to do so. A correspondent of The Times wrote as follows:—
  "Despairing householders are asking when they are to get the benefits of such consignments as recently arrived from New Zealand. Is there a single consumer who bought a joint of one of the 5,000 frozen sheep so successfully imported who was charged less than 100 per cent. on the transaction, and honestly told what he was buying? No London butcher sells American meat, and no London butcher sold one of the 5,000 frozen sheep brought from New Zealand. This fact the public will learn for themselves if they make the round of the shops and inquire. 'No, ma'am, we don't keep it; only the best English meat.' This is the universal story; but, somehow, people do not believe it."
  That morning he had received an inte-
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  resting letter from a correspondent, who said he had observed with great satisfaction that Notice had been given of this Question, and continued—
  "The importance of your question to the middle and poor classes is but little realized by politicians and also by the majority of voters, who are too supine to make any demonstration that would impress the Government with the importance of this question. It is a great hardship to small purchasers that retail dealers can, in the most open manner, sell meat imported from America, Australia, &c. (for which they pay a very small price), as and at the same prices as are asked for prime English and Scotch meat, the beef being dressed in America to resemble Scotch meat, and who invariably reply, when asked the question, 'Are you sure this is not American meat? 'No, I would not keep such a thing in my shop; "as well as being very insolent, and often refusing to serve one again. This makes it especially hard, as it oftens happens that there is not another shop near. My Lord, this is a matter that concerns very much the middle and working classes."
  He hoped that this trade would be developed.; at the same time, he trusted that fair play would be given to the English producer. On the principle that we prevented the sale of adulterated butter as genuine butter, so we might compel American meat to be sold as such, and thus save to the working classes an average of, perhaps, '2d. per lb., while doing an act of justice to the home producer.
  LORD SUDELEY: I am sorry that I am unable to follow the noble Lord in his interesting statement with any information on the subject. The Board of Trade have no official knowledge of the recent importation of frozen meat from New Zealand, though their attention has been called to it by the announcement in the newspapers. The Government do not, as at present advised, think it necessary or advisable to introduce a Bill to compel retail dealers to specify the description of meat they are selling, and impose heavy penalties on any persons who sell imported meat as home produce.
  THE DUKE OF RUTLANDthanked the noble Lord who had brought this subject forward, and who had received an unsatisfactory answer. English agriculture was in a depressed, not to say an alarming condition; and anything likely to benefit the agricultural classes, and to enable them to meet the competition to which they were exposed, ought to be worth the serious attention of Her Majesty's Government.

NAVY—H. M. S. "INCONSTANT."

  QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHasked the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether he will lay on the Table the official report relative to the late fire on board H. M. S "Inconstant," at the Capo of Good Hope?
  THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK,in reply, said, that no serious damage had been done to the Inconstant by the fire. He was glad to have the opportunity of stating that the conduct of the ship's company on the occasion was excellent. A Court of Inquiry as to the causes of the fire was held, under the presidency of the Admiral in command of the Fleet on the station, and the Report of it had been received. The Court was unable to come to any conclusion as to the cause of the fire. It was contrary to the invariable custom of the Admiralty to make public the Reports of Courts of Inquiry; but he would be most happy to let the noble Viscount see the Papers, if he desired to do so.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT—WTLLES-DEN DISTRICT SCHOOL BOARD.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONrose to call attention to the Letter from the Education Department of the 23rd May 1882 ordering the establishment of a board school for the Willesden district. The noble Earl cited the provisions of the Act of 1870 as to the formation of school boards under ordinary and under extraordinary circumstances. In the former case there was to be notice, and, if objection were taken, public inquiry. In the latter case, if the discontinuance of a school or schools led to a deficiency of accommodation, the formation of a school board might be ordered. Willesden was just outside the area of the London School Board, and it had a large and increasing artizan population. By the co-operation of all classes, provision had been made voluntarily for elementary education. But the closing of a Wesleyan school for 136 children was followed by the receipt of a letter ordering the establishment of a school board to meet an alleged rapidly-increasing deficiency of school accommodation. It was denied that, having regard to the whole district, there was any such de-
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  ficiency. There was in the district a total population of 27,360. The estimated accommodation required for the children was, in the opinion of Mr. Willis, the Inspector, 3,964 places. The present accommodation was 4,577 places. If to this number 432 were added in respect of new buildings, the total number of places would be 5,009, showing a clear surplus of 1,045 places. Possibly the answer of the Department might be that there was a deficiency in the parish of Willesden as respects school accommodation, and that condition might have been arrived at by omitting from the list of schools St. Augustin's and St. Luke's, because they were not strictly within the boundaries of the parish. One of these large schools was, however, on the boundary, while the other was only a few yards outside the limit. Moreover, they were erected for the express purpose of providing for the educational wants of Willesden—a fact which was recognized by the Education Department when they were originally built. The course taken by the Education Department was open to several grave objections. First, it was an offence against the general spirit and intention of the Education Act. That intention was clearly expressed by Mr. Forster in 1870, when that right hon. Gentleman said that the object aimed at was only to supplement existing voluntary efforts. In a populous district like Willesden, where there was a nice balance of supply and demand, the sudden closing of an existing school was a very dangerous act. The Department was only to proceed in a summary manner where application was made with respect to a school district, or where it was satisfied that the managers of an existing voluntary school were unable to carry it on. Neither of those conditions had existed in the case of Willesden. The feeling of the district was entirely against the change which had been made. Even if it were otherwise, the Department was not justified in the course taken. An inquiry ought previously to have been held. It was the more right that such an inquiry should have been held, because voluntary efforts in that parish had triumphed over great local difficulties. He understood that the step once taken could not be reversed; but a great hardship had been inflicted, he quite believed, uninten-

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  tionally, and he thought that some means should be brought into existence whereby such a hardship should be remedied.
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRIVY SEAL),in reply, said, he had no reason to complain of the noble Earl for bringing forward that question. The Department, however, had only followed the usual course. He wished to make no greater excuse for himself in the matter than if he were actually President of the Council, and, indeed, he was as responsible as if he had recently been appointed Lord President. He quite understood the way in which the facts had presented themselves to the noble Earl's mind. But the noble Earl had not been quite accurate in his reference to the Education Act. If he had read the second sub-section of Section 12 of that Act, he would have seen that the power given to the Education Department was intended to meet precisely the case which had happened at Willesden. When the Department was satisfied that an existing school had been discontinued, or that the school accommodation was insufficient, it was empowered, after an inquiry, public or private, to direct the erection of a school board. That was precisely the case at Willesden. A considerable boys' school was closed, and, there being no prospect of the deficiency being supplied, the Department ordered the erection of an additional school. The noble Earl said that the school accommodation in Willesden was not only sufficient, but more than sufficient. But this parish had so increasing a population that it was scarcely possible for an Inspector of Schools at any time to say whether the school accommodation was sufficient or not. The accommodation that was sufficient to-day was not sufficient to-morrow. But, irrespective of that, the opinion of the School Inspector was that in Harlesden, which was a portion of the parish of Willesden, a boys' school was urgently needed at this moment. Nothing was being done, and, as far as the Education Department knew, nothing was in contemplation, which would supply the place of the school that was stopped at Harlesden. The fact was that so long ago as January last the committee that managed the Harlesden Boys' School adopted a resolution to the effect that they were compelled to close the school in consequence of the gradual with-
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  drawal of support from the school by the public, who preferred a board school. Ten days elapsed from the time when notice was given before the order was made by the Education Department. He believed that between the 9th and the 19th of May no communication of any kind was made to the Department. The action of the Department, to say the least of it, was thoroughly legal under the terms of the Act. But the Department did not confine their attention simply to the closing of this school; they took into view the whole condition and prospects of the parish of Willesden. He entirely agreed with the noble Earl that this power of the Department ought to be exercised with great caution; but he could not but think that under the circumstances he had described the establishment of a board school was necessary. He could assure the noble Earl that the order for the establishment of a board school was made in the interests of education in the parish of Willesden.
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOKobjected strongly to the course which had been taken in this matter. Because one school holding 120 children was shut up in one part of the parish of Willesden, though its closure could affect only, at most, a limited part of the population, and there were other schools affording ample accommodation within no unreasonable distance, notice was at once peremptorily given by the Committee of Council that a board school must be established. The Committee of Council, he contended, had not originally fixed a definite period, and had not allowed sufficient time to elapse before issuing their final notice, and had acted in contravention of the Statute regulating such questions as that now before their Lordships. The Committee of Council had applied the Statute in a harsh and unjustifiable manner. The irrevocable step which had been taken was unjust to those who had made voluntary efforts in the parish, and the answer of the noble Lord opposite was most unsatisfactory.

ENTAILS (SCOTLAND).

  MOTION FOR A RETURN.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: My Lords, I beg to move for a Return of

  "I. Entails executed in Scotland prior to 1st August 1848;

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  (a) The number cut off since that date;

  (b.) The number now in existence:

  "II. Entails executed in Scotland on and subsequent to 1st August 1848;

  (a.) The number registered;

  (b.) The number which have since been cut off;

  (c.) The number now in existence."

  I believe the Returns, if they are granted, will give very useful and instructive information in regard to existing Acts of Entail. There was an Act passed in 1847, called Lord Rutherford's Act; but I have never seen any Returns of the operation of that Act. Those "who framed that Act expected that by it entails granted in future would be easier to cut off than heretofore. I should very much like to know what has resulted. I do not myself know how many entails there are at present in Scotland—whether there are 1,000 or 1,000,000—and I think it would be very instructive and very useful, especially in reference to the Bill which is now before your Lordships' House, if these Returns should be granted.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: I quite agree with my noble Friend that these Returns would be very useful and instructive if they could be obtained. All I can say is, that we will do our best to obtain them for him.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Seeing that the noble Earl's Bill—the Entail (Scotland) Bill—comes on on Thursday for second reading, I suppose we shall have these Returns long after the measure has gone to "another place."
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: I hope, at all events, we shall get the Returns early, and before we get into Committee. I do not think there need be much delay; because I should think it would be only a question of copying of certain Returns in the Register House at Edinburgh.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: I am glad the noble Marquess takes an interest in the Bill, and, that he expects it to pass so speedily through this House and go to "another place."
  Motion agreed to.
  Return of—

  I. Entails executed in Scotland prior to 1st August 1848;

  (a.) The number cut off since that date;

  (b.) The number now in existence:

  II. Entails executed in Scotland on and subsequent to 1st August 1848;

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  (a.) The number registered;

  (b.) The number which have since been cut off;

  (c.) The number now in existence.—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

  Ordered to be laid before the House.

  ELECTION OF REPRESENTATIVE PEERS (IRELAND) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the Law relating to the Election of Lords Temporal to serve in Parliament for Ireland—Was presented by The Earl of BELHORE; read la. (No. 137.)

  INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (IRELAND) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the Intermediate Education (Ireland) Act, 1878—Was presented by The Lord O'HAGAN; read 1a. (NO. 138.)
  House adjourned at a quarter past Six o'clock, to Thursday next, a quarter past Ten o'clock.