Lords Sitting of 9 June 1882

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading— Judgments (Inferior Courts)*(110); Tramways Provisional Orders*(125); Tramways Provisional Orders (No. 2)*(126).
Committee — Report —Arklow Harbour*(98).

CRIME AND OUTRAGE (IRELAND)— MURDER OF MR. W. BOURKE AND ESCORT —THREE FARMERS SHOT AND MAIMED.—QUESTIONS.
LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE: My Lords, I do not see the noble Lord the Lord Privy Seal in his place; but as some alarming accounts have recently come from my unhappy country, I wished to ask the Government, Whether they can give your Lordships some further information of the outrages which have taken place? It is reported that there have been two murders, of Mr. Bourke and a soldier who was protecting him, at Castle Taylor, Grand Gate, Ardrahan, Galway County; and three farmers have been shot in the legs—Michael Brown, at Rathglass, six miles from Ballina; Henry East, at Ballafarna, Roscommon County; and Cornelius Hickey, of Castle-island; thus, no less than five persons have been shot, and two of them are
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reported to be dead. I wish to ask the Government, Whether they have any further information to give to the House; whether any arrests have been made; and; whether the Government attribute, or whether they think there is any relation between these murders and outrages and the Whitsuntide addresses of their hon. Friends, both out-of-doors and in "another place?"
EARL GRANVILLE: I came into the House with my noble Friend the Lord Privy Seal, and I thought he was here; but he told me he had only just received Notice of the Question from the noble Lord, and that he had communicated with the Irish Office, but had not yet received any details.
Afterwards—
LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE: Perhaps the noble Lord will now answer the Questions which I, a short time ago, put to the Government.
LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRIVY SEAL): I am sorry I was not in my place at the time; but as I received the information only at the last moment, I had sent to the Irish Office to see whether any further details had arrived. I am sorry to say I can give your Lordships no, or little, further information with respect to these dreadful crimes in Ireland. It appears that Mr. Bourke and his escort, a soldier, were fired at from behind a wall, which was loop-holed for the purpose. This is the only news in addition to what has appeared in the papers. Death is believed to have been instantaneous in each case. It seems that three arrests have been made in respect to the murders of Mr. Bourke and his escort. The three other cases to which the noble Lord has referred are additional, and they are cases of maiming by firing at the legs, apparently for the purpose of maiming as distinguished from killing the victims. In one of these cases arrests have been made, but none in the other two at this moment.

EGYPT (POLITICAL AFFAIRS)—THE ANGLO—FRENCH FLEET AT ALEX. ANDRIA.—QUESTION.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I wish to ask the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs a Question of which I have not been able to give him Notice, as I have only just been

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informed of the circumstances. It is rumoured in London that the Fleet, or a large portion of it, has been withdrawn from Alexandria. If it has, or if it has not, it would be well, I think, that the fact should be published; and I shall be glad if the noble Earl will state whether it is so or not?
EARL GRANVILLE: As a matter of fact, I am entirely in ignorance that any portion of the Fleet has been removed. Indeed, I am quite sure that it is not the case.

THE ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY.

  OBSERVATIONS. QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT MIDLETONsaid, that those of their Lordships who were acquainted with Ireland, especially those of them who had seen the state of things on the spot within the last few months, he might say the last two years, must know how responsible were the duties cast upon the Royal Irish Constabulary. From the time the present Government succeeded to Office, the life of the members of the Force had been one long round of duties of the most disagreeable and delicate character. They had to patrol by night, and were liable to be called upon to march long distances into every part of the country, and, in fact, had to perform some of the most unpleasant duties that could possibly fall to the lot of any body of men. By common consent those duties had been discharged with rare fidelity and forbearance. The present Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (Earl Spencer), in reply to a Question put to him last year, took occasion to refer, in terms of the highest encomium, to the manner in which the duties of the Constabulary had been discharged. He could tell their Lordships that the duties—the exceptional duties—which had been imposed upon the Force had not only been conducive to a great strain upon the physical qualities of the men, but had also interfered in a very serious manner with them, and entailed upon them very serious pecuniary loss. Both officers and men had been despatched on various occasions long distances from their homes, and to places in which, from the peculiar character of the service in which they were employed, it was extremely difficult for them to obtain provisions except at fabulous prices. In consequence of this in the early part of the Session some efforts were made to
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  acknowledge the extra services which had been rendered by the Force, and to place them in a somewhat better position in more than one particular. He remembered hearing the question put to one of the County Inspectors—when a member of the Royal Irish Constabulary was on duty? The reply was very much to the point—"Sir, a member of the Royal Irish Constabulary is never off duty. He is liable to be called on at a moment's notice to go in any direction, and to remain there any length of time." When the Budget was introduced a Vote was included to compensate the Constabulary for the extra services they had rendered, and the extra expense to which the men had been put. That, probably, was not a subject which fell within the jurisdiction of their Lordships' House; but, on a Question being put, the official answer given was that the whole of that sum was to be distributed amongst the men, and that none of it was to go to the officers of the Force. Upon its being asked what was going to be done for the officers, the reply—which he could not help thinking was a very unsatisfactory reply —was that a Bill, at some uncertain date, was to be brought in dealing with the whole subject. He wanted to know definitely when that Bill was to be introduced, and he also wanted to know7 what would be the general provisions of the Bill? So far as the men were concerned, he believed they were content with what would be a substantial remuneration for their services; but he hoped that in any measure which might be introduced the provisions of the Act of 1866, which now regulated the constitution of the Force, would be amended so far as to restore the old privileges with regard to pensions. The Act of 1866 cut down very materially the pensions allowed to retiring members of the Force. He could not help thinking that it was exceedingly improper that men in the Service who received any injury in the discharge of their duty should not have a pension which would enable them to live in respectability and comfort, without having to appeal to the charity of the public; and he hoped if any Bill was introduced this matter would not be lost sight of. But what he especially wished to ask was what it was proposed to do for the officers of the Force, and, if it were impossible to make a statement on the subject at present, when they were to know

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  what would be done? The officers of the Force were left in a very bad position. They had shared to the full all the labour which had fallen to the lot of their men, while there was attached to them a peculiar amount of responsibility, the strain caused by which could be properly judged of only by those who had seen what the duties were which they were called upon to perform. If a hasty act was committed, or the slightest want of judgment shown, and anything serious followed, the coroners' juries, in three out of the four Provinces of Ireland, were certain to find a verdict of murder against them. They had been told officially they had no claim to any part of the remuneration to be awarded by Parliament to the Force. He asked, therefore, what the officers were to have? He supposed he might be told that they were to rely upon promotion, and that brought him to the second part of his Question, what chance was there of promotion? He wished to know whether it was necessary that the highest appointments in the Royal Irish Constabulary should always be given to distinguished military officers? He had ascertained the number of Inspectors General who had been appointed to the Royal Irish Constabulary since the year 1856. The number was seven, and only one of those, Sir Henry Brownrigg, was appointed from the Force. Coming lower down, the number of Deputy Inspectors appointed was 12, and of those only one was appointed from the Force. In the grade immediately below that a very large proportion—more than a moiety—of military men had been appointed to those positions. It was also rumoured that the next vacancy, which could not be long before it occurred, in the command of the Constabulary Depot at Phoenix Park, was to be filled by a military man. One of the great complaints with regard to the Irish Constabulary was that its military organization rendered it extremely ill-adapted for the detection of crime. He did not himself bring forward any such charge against the military officers; but it was a charge which was frequently made by strong supporters of Her Majesty's Government, and also by those journals which took Her Majesty's Government under their especial protection. He wanted to know how it was possible that the Force could be otherwise than military in its charac-
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  ter, if it was necessarily officered by distinguished men taken from the ranks of the Army? It was hard to complain of their not detecting crime, if they were not trained up to that duty, but to duties entirely dissimilar. He never yet heard, with regard to Sir Henry Brownrigg, that any complaints of want of discipline or any other matter had been made; and he ventured to think that the experiment might be tried of appointing men from the Force with great benefit to the country, and certainly with great encouragement to members of the Force itself. In another department also, that of the Resident Magistracy, the officers of the Constabulary might do valuable service. Within the last two years one gentleman, Mr. Henry Blake, had been appointed a Resident Magistrate; that gentleman had been selected for special service, and from the way he was spoken of he did not think the experiment had been repented of. He had no doubt that at the present time there were plenty of men who would be willing to accept Sub-Inspectorships, which seemed to be a small fortune to a man who had nothing. But a young man of 18 or 20 years of age did not, as a rule, look forward to making provision for himself when he became a married man; and it was only when he married and found what little chance he had of promotion that he found how inadequate his pay was to meet the expense of a wife and family. Then a man began to feel a very bitter sense of disappointment, which militated very seriously against the real efficiency of the Force. Severe as the duties of the members of the Royal Irish Constabulary were, he did not think that the events of the last few days—he might say the events of the last few hours—gave any hope that their duties were likely to be lighter; and when the peace of Ireland depended upon the courage and conduct of these men, it would not be wise to stint them in regard to remuneration or prospects of promotion. He trusted that that would not be the course which would be adopted by Her Majesty's Government, and that he should not be told that the Government believed such a course to be unjust as well as impolitic. He begged to ask, When the Bill dealing with the position of officers in the Royal Irish Constabulary is to be intro-

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  duced; and whether it is intended that the highest commands in that Force are to be invariably held by military men?
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRIVY SEAL): I will answer first the last Question of the noble Viscount—namely, with respect to the higher offices of the Royal Irish Constabulary Force. It appears by the information which has been furnished to me that those appointments are not so exclusively filled by gentlemen having been officers in the Army as the noble Viscount seems to think, be-cause it appears that three Assistant Inspectors General were officers in the Force, and were raised to that rank. Of course, in the case of the newly-appointed Inspector General, Colonel Bruce, that was not an appointment from the Army, as he was promoted from the post of Deputy Inspector General. I am also able to tell the noble Viscount that I am informed by my noble Friend the Lord Lieutenant that there is no intention whatever of laying down any rule that the superior appointments in the Force shall be limited to candidates coming from the ranks of the Army. With respect to the earlier part of his Question, I am not able to tell the noble Viscount the exact provisions of the Bill which will shortly be introduced on the subject of the pay and allowances of the Royal Irish Constabulary. But the delay which has taken place has been mainly caused by the fact that it was necessary to reconsider the scheme which had been adopted and recommended by the Departmental Committee which inquired into the matter, for the purpose of giving further and better consideration to the claims of the officers of the Force. That is the cause of the delay. The question is now under careful consideration. The Treasury have to be consulted; but we are in hopes that within a very short time a Bill dealing with the whole question, and including the case of the officers of the Force, will be presented to Parliament.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT — WILDES-DEN SCHOOL BOARD.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVON,who had on the Paper a Notice to call attention to the Letter from the Education Department of the 23rd May 1882 ordering the establishment of a board school for the Willesden district, wished to explain that
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  he intended to postpone the matter till Tuesday next at the request of the noble Lord (the Lord Privy Seal), as he had not had time to inquire into the facts. He did so with regret, and wished that the consultation between the noble Lord and the Inspector had been held before the Order, which could not now be cancelled, had been issued. The case was one which well deserved the attention of Her Majesty's Government and the House.
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRIVY SEAL)said, he felt obliged to the noble Earl for postponing the Question at his request. He had done his best to obtain full and satisfactory information, but had not quite succeeded during that day; and, therefore, he was unable to give a satisfactory reply to the noble Earl. He was not at the Council Office at the time when the Order was made, and, therefore, he had no opportunity of knowing personally what took place.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I should like to ask the noble Earl the Leader of the House, whether there is any intention on the part of the Government to fill up the Office of Lord President of the Council?
  EARL GRANVILLE,in reply, said, that the Office was not vacant; but if it had been, and his noble Friend near him or any other persons had been appointed to it, he could not have had any personal knowledge of this Order, as it was settled by his noble Friend (Earl Spencer).

ROYAL MILITARY ACADEMY, WOOLWICH.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD TRUROasked Her Majesty's Government, If any inquiry has been instituted, and report made, in relation to certain statements contained in a pamphlet written by Professor Bloxam, affecting the Royal Military Academy at Woolwich; and, if so, whether the report will be laid upon the Table? The noble Lord observed, that, though some of the statements made in the pamphlet had been impugned as exaggerations, they rested on the authority of a gentleman of unquestioned character and position. A gentleman who ventured to expose the failings and shortcomings of an institution, as Professor Bloxam had done, stood in a very unpleasant position. Nevertheless, in his opinion, Professor Bloxam deserved the highest credit for

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  what he had done. Taking the Profession generally, he thought their Lordships would be of opinion that the lives of military men and the associations by which they were surrounded did not invest them with, those qualities of knowledge and experience which were necessary and essential for the ruling of a great educational establishment. The Woolwich Academy had, moreover, the additional disadvantage that the appointment of Governor was only held for a period of five years. Naturally, therefore, the post must be filled by men of different temperaments and different views. If there were a Governor who was lax in his mode of watching over this educational establishment, the inevitable consequence was that the next Governor who was appointed must resort to a more stringent discipline. The result was disturbance, spasmodic resentment, and a smouldering irritation in the establishment. In his opinion, an institution like the Woolwich Military Academy might be conducted more successfully under a civilian head with military assistants.
  THE EARL OF MORLEYdeemed it unnecessary to detain the House by prolonging remarks on a subject which was disposed of the other day. Without going, however, into the details which the noble Lord had brought forward, he would tell him at once, in answer to his Question, that in accordance with what he stated on a previous occasion, the Secretary of State had called for a Report on the allegations contained in Professor Bloxam's pamphlet. That Report was not of such a kind that it could be presented to Parliament. It affected matters of discipline, and it would be extremely inconvenient to present it to Parliament. But the Report dealt in detail with all the points brought forward by Professor Bloxam, and the Secretary of State considered that those allegations were satisfactorily dealt with, and that it was not necessary to proceed any further in the matter. He might mention that, after the close of the Correspondence referred to in his pamphlet, Dr. Bloxam had a long interview with the Governor; therefore, he had had a more ample opportunity of stating his view on the question of discipline than he could have had in Correspondence. He quite agreed with the noble Lord that the question was an im-
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  portant one; and, no doubt, if any good result could have been brought about by publishing the result of the investigation, the Secretary of State would have been willing to strain the official custom of considering the result of such inquiries private; but no possible good could result from publication in the present instance. He could assure the noble Lord that the question had been carefully investigated in all points, and that the answers given to Professor Bloxam's allegations were satisfactory. There were, he admitted, some isolated cases of insubordination; but he did not think these were sufficient to establish anything approaching to a general accusation of indiscipline against the Institution. The question of discipline and instruction in these Institutions was one which occupied the serious attention of those who were responsible for the administration of the Army. At the present time, there was no desire to conceal any matter which ought to be attended to; but in regard to this case, he believed that Professor Bloxam, of whom he did not wish to say anything severe, had made statements which, in some instances, were quite unfounded, and in other instances, were exaggerated generalizations from isolated acts. An investigation, though not of a public character, would be made into the general subject of the education of candidates for the Army.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Five o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Eleven o'clock.