Lords Sitting of 1 June 1882

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Metropolis Management and Building Acts Amendment* (104); County Courts (Ireland)* (105); Local Government Provisional Orders* (106); Local Government Provisional Orders (Poor Law)* (107).
Report—Petty Sessions (Ireland)* (89).
Third Reading—Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (London)* (56); Elementary Education Provisional Orders Confirmation (West Ham, &c.)* (55); Local Government Provisional Order (Highways)* (82); Commons Regulation Provisional Orders* (88); Public Health (Scotland) Act Amendment* (84), and passed.

EGYPT (POLITICAL AFFAIRS.)

  QUESTION.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I wish to ask the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether he is in a position to give the House any information with respect to the state of affairs in Egypt?
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, the state of affairs in Egypt is, as your Lordships are too well aware, of a very serious character. Notwithstanding the courage and resolution shown by the
  1772
  Khedive, Arabi Bey may be said to be for the time de facto ruler of the country. His power being based only on the Army, and not on the will of the country, he may proceed to political extremities. Her Majesty's Government have taken measures to secure the life and property of Europeans in Alexandria. There have already arrived three vessels, and the French have also three vessels there. Three more vessels of ours will arrive, I hope, this evening or to-morrow morning, and I hope a similar contingent of the French Squadron will arrive at the same time. We believe there is some exaggeration in the alarm as to the personal safety of Europeans; and I may state that there is no tear with regard to the maintenance of our telegraphic communications with that country. The importance of securing the safety of the Suez Canal has not been overlooked. We have thought it right to advise the Sultan—and in that we have not only the support of France, but the express support of all the Powers—to advise the Sultan to support the Khedive, and reject the accusations made against him by ex-Ministers, and to summon to Constantinople the three officers at the head of the military movement. At the stage which matters have now reached, it seemed desirable that the flag of the Sovereign should be represented at Alexandria, and we have suggested to the Sultan that a Turkish officer should be sent there in an Ottoman man-of-war. We have agreed to a proposal of the French Government for a Conference of the Powers and of Turkey, at Constantinople, on the basis of the maintenance of the status quo in Egypt, and to settle the measures necessary to put an end to the present crisis. This proposal is entirely in harmony with the principles of policy which I have laid down in communications to M. Gambetta and to M. de Freycinet, and with the declarations which have been jointly made by the two Governments to the other Powers and to Turkey. I propose now to present to the House certain Papers with regard to Egypt; and I hope, after communication with the French Government, to be able to lay on the Table further Papers extending to a very late date.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: On the occasion of a recent answer of the noble Earl, I was glad to be able to say

  1773
  that, so far as I could see, there was no objection to be taken to it. I regret to say that I am wholly unable to make a similar observation with respect to the statement which has just been made. As I understand the noble Earl, the measures that Her Majesty's Government have taken in this grave crisis are to send some more ships to Alexandria; to suggest to the Sultan that he might float his flag in Alexandria; to ask for a Conference at Constantinople; and to suggest further to the Sultan that he should invite Arabi Pasha to Constantinople. I think it is not hazarding a very audacious prophecy to say that Arabi Pasha will politely but firmly decline that invitation. The point which, as far as I can interpret their language, appears to have escaped the attention of Her Majesty's Government is that, whatever the European Conference may undertake to do or decide, Her Majesty's Government are in honour bound, as deeply as any nation can be, if we have been rightly informed, to do two things. First, they have demanded—I am under correction if the telegram in the newspapers is wholly inaccurate—but I understand them to have demanded that Arabi Pasha and his colleagues shall be removed from Egypt, or at least that Arabi shall be removed from Egypt and his colleagues sent into the interior, and they have stated their intention of exacting in case of necessity the fulfilment of this demand. Now, no decision which the European Conference may come to will relieve Her Majesty's Government of the necessity of acting up to the demand which they have so solemnly made, and of giving effect to the threats by which they have not only pledged the honour of their own country, but have also guided the action of those who are our partizans in Egypt and of the Khedive himself. The other point in respect to which Her Majesty's Government seem to me to be deeply pledged is to maintain the safety of the Khedive, who has implicitly followed their counsels; and who, if he now finds himself in a position of danger, will feel that it is because he has obeyed the directions and trusted to the promises of the Western Powers. My Lords, these are very grave duties incumbent upon Her Majesty's Government as the result of their own acts; and no consultation at Constantinople, no invocation of the European Concert,
  1774
  can in the very faintest degree diminish the burden or stringency of those obligations. There is one other point on which I wish to ask the noble Earl a Question. I am aware that he is not fond of giving answers to Questions put without Notice, and it is possible that he may refuse to give an answer in the present case; but a statement of a very grave character, and coming from Alexandria, has just been put into my hands. I am told, and that on what I believe to be good authority—
  "There are 6,000 soldiers in Alexandria. For four days they have been erecting six formidable earthworks all round the harbour. The English and French Governments will not let the Fleets stop them, although it could be easily done now. The whole of the Native population are with Arabi Pasha since his return to Power."
  I cannot, as I said, expect Her Majesty's Government to give me an answer as to this without Notice; but if they are deliberately allowing these forts to be built, and are refusing to allow the Fleets to take the precautions which at once, and without any breach of International Law, would put a stop to these works, I think they are running a great risk and are taking a most imprudent course. In conclusion, I will only express the hope that this European Conference will not be distinguished for the protracted councils by which Conferences are known to be marked, and that the negotiations with the Porte, whatever they are, may be speedy. The crisis does not brook delay. The state of comparative prosperity and order that was set up in Egypt is already seriously impaired and its very existence menaced. The lives of persons whom we have induced to act under our counsels are imperilled by delay, and all the responsibility will fall on the head of the two Western Powers, and, as far as we are concerned, on the heads of Her Majesty's Government, if they permit these—as it seems to me—superfluous negotiations at Constantinople to interfere with the primary duty of prompt and effective action.
  EARL GRANVILLE: I will only say one word in reply to the noble Marquess. I am not surprised that your Lordships should feel anxious to know what information the Government have to give, and I think your Lordships may also, at the moment when success has not

  1775
  been obtained, wish to hear the explanation of Her Majesty's Government; but I can conceive nothing more inconvenient than that the discussion on the conduct of Her Majesty's Government should take place piecemeal, and not as a whole, and in the perfect manner which will be possible in a very short time The only other word I should like to say in regard to the appeal which the noble Marquess has made with respect to the responsibility attaching to Her Majesty's Government to act up to their pledges is, that we do not shrink from that responsibility in the slightest degree; but, with our knowledge of all the circumstances of the case, we must be left to judge as to the best and most effective means of fulfilling those pledges.

NAVAL EDUCATION—THE ROYAL NAVAL COLLEGE.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH, in rising to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether it would be feasible to supply the means for the efficient scientific instruction of the junior officers of the Royal Navy elsewhere than at the Royal Naval College, Greenwich, and without so long an interruption of their service afloat as is necessitated by the existing regulations? said, he wished to call attention to the fact that instruction at the Royal Naval College was given to junior officers of 19 or 20 years of age, who were then at a period of life when, in the opinion of the best naval authorities, they would be better employed on board ships. As things were, the young officer at the crisis of his education was withdrawn from his naval studies, in order to go through a six months' course of English, French, algebra, geometry, trigonometry, steam, and other subjects, which could not possibly be learnt in the time allotted. And, while no one could become proficient in these subjects in the given time, there were many young men to whom the six months thus spent were virtually thrown away, but who would, for all that, make admirable officers. Without disparaging science or being unduly a laudator temporis acti, he could not but think of the past glories of the British Navy, and reflect that the system from which they resulted scarcely needed an apologist even in the present day. He
  1776
  objected to Greenwich as a place of study. It was not the best of places for young men, being only about five miles from London, where they came to pass their holidays, and where they acquired expensive habits. He understood that the education of the sub-lieutenants was progressing very well under the efficient direction of Sir Geoffrey Hornby; but he trusted that the noble Earl would be able to change the present arrangements, that special scientific instruction might be given to those who had a taste for it, or, at any rate, that it would not be thought necessary to withdraw all the young officers from the sea for six months of the most important period of their lives.
  THE EARL OF NORTHBROOKsaid, that the noble Viscount asked two Questions, and he was sorry that he could not hold out any expectation of giving an answer in the affirmative. As to the position of the College, it was carefully settled some years ago, during the tenure of Office of his Predecessors. It was considered that the College would afford great facilities to the senior officers in learning the duties of their profession, and also enable the junior officers to acquire the instruction which would be necessary for advancement in their profession. It was considered that the proximity of the College to London, whence the highest scientific assistance could be obtained, would be a great advantage to a Naval College. As to the noble Viscount's statement that Greenwich was not a suitable place for young men, he (the Earl of Northbrook) had received no information which led him to believe that it was worse in this respect than any other place. On the contrary, he had been assured by Sir Geoffrey Hornby, whose high capacity had been rightly praised by the noble Viscount, that the presence of the young officers at the College was in no way disadvantageous; indeed, his own opinion was that it was important for them thus early in life to associate with officers of higher rank than themselves. He was, therefore, unable to hold out to the noble Viscount any hope that the College would be removed from its present position. At the same time, the noble Viscount had certainly touched upon one of the difficulties of modern naval education—the problem—namely, of reconciling the attainment of practical and

  1777
  scientific knowledge. The question did not admit of an easy settlement; but, after five years spent at sea, six months would probably not be thought too long a time to allow for the theoretical part of an officer's education. To these six months must be added the short period spent at Portsmouth in the study of gunnery and torpedo warfare, without which knowledge no officer would be fit for service in the present day. The Board of Admiralty were not of opinion that any choice should be allowed to the young officers of the various branches of the Service to which they might wish specially to devote themselves. Practical seamanship would always be of the greatest value; but as ships were now wholly propelled by steam, scientific knowledge was every day becoming more and more important. He was sorry he could not give a different answer to the noble Viscount's Questions.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHexplained that his objection was that the period was too small for the immense amount of work to be done.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.