Lords Sitting of 28 July 1882

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Electric Lighting*(212).
Second Reading—Citation Amendment (Scotland)*(206).
Committee—Ancient Monuments (197).
Select Committee—Bills of Exchange*(183), nominated.
Report—Local Government (Gas) Provisional Order*(144).

ARMY—THE RESERVES.

  QUESTION.
  In answer to the Earl of LONGFORD,
  THE EARL OF MORLEY said: My Lords, I do not distinctly understand the meaning of the noble Earl's Question. Does he mean by a battalion efficient for service a battalion at the full strength of 820, and composed exclusively of men who have served at
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  least one year with the Colours, with its equipment, transport, &c.? If he does, I frankly admit that there is no battalion in that condition, and I am not in the least ashamed to make that admission. It is not intended to keep all battalions at their full strength, and I scarcely know what arrangements the noble Earl would propose, so as to have no men serving with the Colours of less than a year's service, unless he stops recruiting altogether. But, my Lords, after the battalions composing the First Army Corps have all left the country, either for field or garrison service, many of the regiments which will be left at home are, at the present moment, at a strength considerably above their Establishments, and they will be much strengthened by an infusion of the Reserve men who have been recently called out. These Reserve men will, as far as possible, be posted to the regiments in which they served formerly; the majority will be for service in the field and Reserve Force to be established in the Mediterranean; but a larger number of the 10,000 will be left

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  to strengthen the regiments which will be left at home. And, if the extremely improbable emergency were to arise, which would require us to prepare for active service the battalions which compose the Second Army Corps, and which nave Establishments varying from 550 to 850, it could be done without delay, by calling to the Colours a larger number of Reserve men to replace the men in these battalions who, from age or shortness of service, are disqualified for active service. Under our arrangements, which I have good reason to hope will prove successful, it is possible to send out of this country an Army which, including the Indian Contingent and the battalions for the Mediterranean garrisons, will not fall short of 40,000 men of all arms, without materially weakening the Force in Ireland, and without denuding this country of troops. The noble Earl raised a laugh last night by saying that the Army could not wait for the convenience of the Secretary of State. What I said was this—that last year the new organization was adopted, the main object of which was to have at home 12 battalions at a strength of 950 men, all serving for seven years, and which would at all times be ready to put 820 men into the field without calling up the Reserves. The 16 battalions next on the list would have establishments varying from 550 to 850, and would have to be filled up, if required for active service, by the Reserves. The remaining battalions at home would be at a low strength; and, if required for the field, it could only be for an emergency which would call into operation all the military resources of the country. The Establishments of the Army have been recast on this principle; and, considering the shortness of the time since it has been in force, I venture, without the least fear of contradiction, to say that it has been attended with marked success. But when the noble Earl expects us to manufacture in six months soldiers who have served for 12 months, he asks for an impossibility. An emergency had arisen at a time when these new Establishments are in process of being built up, and if they had had another year to harden, we should have been able to send an Army Corps into the field with greater facility, and with a smaller—if any—demand on the Reserves than we can at present. I take
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  this opportunity of making some explanation as to "Separation Allowances," with the details of which I was not prepared last night. This subject has occupied the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War for some time, and a considerable improvement has been recently effected. Formerly the Separation Allowances were 6d. per day for wives of all soldiers, and 2d. for each child up to 14 years of age. The soldier was not required to supplement these allowances out of his pay. Now, the wife of a non-commissioned officer receives 8d. a-day from the public and 8d. out of her husband's pay allotted to her, and the wife of a private soldier 8d. a-day from the public, and 4d. a-day from her husband's pay. The allowance for each child (boys under 14, girls under 16) is 2d. a-day granted by the State, and in the case of sergeants 1½d. a-day, and of rank and file 1d. a-day for each girl (up to a certain maximum) is stopped from the soldier's pay. I also wish to correct one point in the report of my remarks last night. I said, or intended to say, that no man under one year's service, or under 20 years of age, would be sent on active service in the field.

  EGYPT (MILITARY EXPEDITION)—DESPATCH OF TROOPS FROM TURKEY.—QUESTION.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETasked the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether he could give any information respecting the Military Force proposed to be despatched to Egypt by Turkey?
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I will read to the House the latest communication we have received from the Porte. It is a message from the Minister of Foreign Affairs to the Turkish Ambassador there, in the following terms:—
  "Constantinople, July 26, 1882.
  "(Communicated July 27.)
  "In continuation of my Circular of the 24th instant, I hasten to inform you that the Sublime Porte, "being resolved to exercise, in an efficacious manner, its incontestable Sovereign rights over Egypt, and wishing thereby to secure the restoration of tranquillity, has decided on immediately despatching to the spot a sufficient number of troops. The measures necessary for this object have already been taken, and this military expedition is on the point of taking place. I beg you, consequently, to bring the

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  above as speedily as possible to the knowledge of the Minister for Foreign Affairs."
  I shall be prepared to lay this communication on the Table, and perhaps it will be right to read the answer we have sent to the Porte. It is a direction to Lord Dufferin, who is instructed to make to the Conference the following declaration:—
  "The destruction of the forts of Alexandria, necessitated by considerations of self-defence, and under circumstances constituting a case of force majeure, has been followed by occurrences which made it incumbent on the commanders of Her Majesty's Forces to take further steps to insure the safety of the Khedive, and to restore peace and order in the town and neighbourhood. The hostile attitude of the rebel forces, and the great importance of protecting the free navigation of the Suez Canal, have necessitated further preparations, which Her Majesty's Government believe will be sufficient of themselves for the restoration of the authority of the Khedive and the establishment of settled order in Egypt. While reserving to themselves the liberty of action which the pressure of events may render expedient and necessary, Her Majesty's Government will be glad to receive the co-operation of any Powers who are ready to afford it. They are accordingly prepared to accept frankly the assistance which the Sultan has now announced his readiness to give in the restoration of order by sending troops to Egypt in accordance with the invitation addressed to His Majesty by the Powers, and subject to the conditions proposed by them. They now desire to learn what number of troops the Sultan intends to send, the date of their probable departure, and the proposed disposition of them. In the meanwhile the delay which has occurred in the adoption of measures by the Porte and the feeling of uncertainty which has unfortunately prevailed as to the real intentions of the Sultan, and which has been strengthened by the action of His Majesty in conferring on Arabi Pasha an important decoration and mark of his favour, make it, in the view of Her Majesty's Government, essential both for the assertion of the Sultan's own authority and of that of the Khedive that His Majesty should at once, and before the despatch of the troops, issue a Proclamation upholding Tewfik Pasha and denouncing Arabi as a rebel."
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I wish to ask the noble Earl one or two Questions. I desire to know, in the first place, whether he will lay upon the Table the "Self-Denying" Protocol, and the other Papers relating to the proceedings of the Conference, as they obviously bear upon the communication he has just read to the House? I would also ask the noble Earl, whether the Turkish offer is in any way limited by any of those restrictions, or conditions, which the Western Powers, and, I believe, the Conference, thought proper,
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  at an earlier date, to impose upon the employment of troops by the Porte? I wish to know, further, whether any terms of a proposed surrender have reached any officer of Her Majesty's Government from Arabi Pasha?
  EARL GRANVLLLE: My Lords, I will see what Papers I can lay before your Lordships. It will be my duty to give every information, except what is excluded by the conditions of the Conference. With regard to the second Question of the noble Marquess, I have to state that the Sultan's offer is a complete acceptance of the conditions which accompanied the communication of the Conference to the Porte on the subject. With regard to the third Question, I have to state that no formal communication has been received from Arabi Pasha. Informal communications have taken place during the past few days; but nothing of a formal character upon which we can rely, or anything which would justify us in relaxing the preparations now going on.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I am encouraged to ask further, from the noble Earl, whether the acceptance by the Sultan of those conditions is a matter which the noble Earl infers from the language of the communication he has just road, or whether he has received separate information to that effect?
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, the telegram I have read refers to a previous Circular, which explicitly accepted those conditions.

MERCANTILE MARINE—POURING OIL UPON THE SEA.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVON,in rising to call attention to the effects said to be produced by pouring oil upon the sea in tempestuous weather; and to inquire, What measures the Board of Trade have adopted to test the value of recent experiments, and to encourage a discovery valuable to life and property at sea? said, that, recently, a number of important experiments in connection with this matter had been carried on in the harbour of Peterhead by a Scotch gentleman named Shield. Familiar as was the phrase of "throwing oil on the troubled waters," it was difficult to say how it came into the language. It was not to be found in the Bible, it was not to be found in Shakespeare, and he was

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  not aware of any great English authorities in whom the phrase was current. Reference had been made to it by Plato, and Pliny had a very curious passage upon it, in which he described the effect of oil poured upon the sea, and there were one or two references to it in Erasmus, who described the process exactly as it was carried out in the present day. The notion was by no means a new one, but had been practised at a very early period in the East. It was unquestionably the fact, the force of waves was greatly allayed by oil being poured upon them, for, although it did not prevent their rolling, it prevented their breaking. In our own country it was constantly practised for various purposes. Among others, the Cornish fishermen were frequently in the habit of throwing oleaginous matter on the waves, and thus produced a glassy surface, through which the shoals of fish could be seen. Certainly oil was used by fishermen in the North Seas, round the Shetland Isles, in the Pacific, and in many other places, and it had turned out to be very useful for the protection of vessels in storms. The oil was used in various ways. Sometimes oil was thrown on the waves; sometimes oil bags were thrown out from the sterns of vessels; and sometimes bladders charged with oil were suspended from the sides of the vessel, and the oil gradually allowed to exude, for the purpose of smoothing the waves, and it thereby acted as a great protection. Occasionally ships in great extremity had been saved by the breaking of an oil cask. He thought it would be a good thing if the Board of Trade would take measures to ascertain the distinct value of the experiments which had recently been made by Mr. Shield at Peterhead, especially as the matter was one which promised to be so valuable in the preservation of life and property at sea. He began by dropping barrels of oil into the deep sea; he then ran some pipes out to sea at Peterhead, and passed oil through them when the sea was rough. The result was that ships were enabled to cross the bar, and to enter the harbour in safety in bad weather, which otherwise would have been quite unable to enter. He then carried his experiment farther. He filled shells with oil, which were to be discharged for the purpose of reducing a high sea, in which a vessel was
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  labouring; he also prepared a life-buoy to act in a similar way. It must be admitted that the experiments had proved that a small quantity of oil was very efficacious in smoothing and reducing the break of the waves; and he thought, therefore, that it would be well if steps were taken to see what kind of oil was the best for the purpose, and it would also be desirable to know how to apply it at the mouths of harbours, especially where there were bars. He was informed that a very small quantity of oil was sufficient to produce the desired effect, for even so small a quantity as one drop became so attenuated that it would spread over a surface of four feet. A few gallons would therefore be quite sufficient for the use of a ship of large size during a heavy gale. If those harbours which had bars could be turned into harbours of refuge, it would be an additional advantage. In conclusion, he must say he felt bound to express his opinion that what he contended for was, that it was the duty of the Board of Trade, the Department which was charged with the consideration of questions like this, to give every encouragement to those who were engaged in the prosecution of experiments, in whatever way that encouragement could be afforded. He did not know whether the Government should grant a sum of money for the purpose of these experiments; but he would repeat that it was the duty of the Board to look into the question, and to assist those who, like Mr. Shield, were carrying on experiments at their own expense in the great hope of saving life and property at sea. Quite sufficient had been proved to warrant the expenditure of a certain sum of public money.
  THE EARL OF ABERDEENsaid, that the matter had, at all events, reached the stage of practical experiment. For his own part, he thought that it had gone farther, because crews had been enabled to weather danger by pouring oil on the sea near the vessel. There was on record the case of the ship Kent, a vessel which found itself in great distress in rounding Cape Horn. The sea was so overpowering that hope was given up, when an American captain, who happened to be on board, asked whether there was any oil on board. There were several casks of oil on board, and these were broached, and

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  their contents poured over the side of the ship. The effect was so marked that, in a short time, the vessel was enabled to proceed in safety. He (the I Earl of Aberdeen) thought some credit would be accorded to Scotland in this matter, because of the labours of Mr. J Shield, a Scotch gentleman, and others, at Peterhead and elsewhere. He might also mention as a fact that, for many years, this subject had received great attention; and in Chambers's Journal, which was a Scotch periodical, many interesting facts connected with the subject might be found. Mr. Shield proposed to undertake still further experiments, not only in the harbours of Aberdeen and Peterhead, but on the Tyne, if the authorities there would guarantee an expenditure of £220, his desire being to conduct the experiments nearer London than Aberdeen, so as, if possible, to induce some Members or officials of the Government to attend them. He hoped that the noble Lord (Lord Sudeley), if he could not give hopes of definite experiments on the part of the Board of Trade, would not give a discouraging reply, and that he would remember that whatever might be the effect of pouring oil upon the water, there could be no doubt of the result of pouring cold water upon the oil.
  LORD COTTESLOEsaid, he also felt bound to commend the subject to the careful and, he hoped, the favourable attention of the Government. With regard to the expense of such a system, it must be borne in mind that shipowners now insured their vessels and cargoes; and, surely, the few pounds of additional outlay which might be entailed by providing this safeguard could not be weighed against the increased security obtained for the lives of passengers and crews, not to speak of the ships themselves and their valuable merchandise. He would also suggest that, in case of shipwreck, if oil were poured over the wrecked vessel, the surf would be made to subside, and lifeboats would be enabled better to rescue those who were on board of her.
  LORD SUDELEYsaid, there was no doubt that the question raised by the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Carnarvon), in his interesting statement, was of considerable importance; and if it could be shown that the so-called discovery was likely to lead as far as he ventured to hope, it would, unquestionably, be one
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  of great advantage in the protection of life and property at sea. The very idea of throwing oil on the troubled waters had a fascination about it which could not fail to insure full consideration being given to the matter. Unfortunately, however, it was one of those questions about which sensational and unpractical views had been largely entertained and published; and although there was no doubt that, to some extent and under certain special circumstances, oil could be effectively used on bars and in landing boats on broken water, it was most difficult to obtain clearly ascertained and undoubted facts; and they must, he feared, divest themselves from the extreme views of those who imagined it was likely to be a complete panacea against all shipwrecks and loss of life at sea, or even that it could be used on any very large scale. The use of oil on water was no new discovery. As the noble Earl himself had stated, the idea was no new one. From the earliest days they found it mentioned; and it was well known that the inhabitants of the Sea Coast of Syria were aware of it in past ages. They knew also that in Pliny's time divers made use of oil to smooth the surface, and have a more steady light at the bottom. In more recent times, in 1757, Franklin's attention was drawn to this subject, and experiments were made by him of various descriptions. In still later years many experiments had been carried on, and papers had been read at different institutions on the subject. It was also well known, as the noble Earl had stated, that seamen engaged in the whale and seal fisheries, and also fishermen in Shetland and on the Coast of Scotland, had more or less employed this method for a great many years. It would, therefore, be seen that he (Lord Sudeley) was justified in stating that that was no new discovery; but, on the contrary, a means of quieting water which had been tried for thousands of years with more or less success. The Board of Trade had, for several years past, been much interested in this question, and had been very desirous of hearing of all actual experiments and results that had been obtained. He feared, however, that it was quite impossible to accede to the noble Earl's proposition, that that Department should, in this experimental stage of the question, spend money upon these experiments, or in any way attempt to

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  become inventors of apparatus for means of using oil to calm the surface of the sea. The Board of Trade felt that their duty in this matter lay in very much the same direction as their duty with regard to the use of continuous brakes or interlocking points on railways—namely, to collect all the information available from time to time, and to encourage, as far as possible, the furtherance of any promising experiments. For this purpose they had given directions for certain of their officers to be present at trials at Peterhead and elsewhere; and they were endeavouring to collect and sift, as well as they could, all authenticated cases in which the oil scheme had been the means of saving life at sea in time of real peril, with a view of publishing the results for the use of seafarers and shipowners. The noble Earl would agree it would be of the greatest advantage that, if this scheme was ever to be of any practical use, the utility of it should, in the first place, be thoroughly impressed upon shipowners, underwriters, and the general seafaring community; for it was clear that if its efficacy was not apparent to those whose lives and property were at stake it was quite impossible to force it upon them. Among the suggestions on the subject—and they were many—that were before the Board of Trade were—first, one for the protection of the entrance to harbours, for which it was proposed that mains or pipes should be laid from the land along the bottom of the sea to the outside of the entrance, and in the time of rough seas should discharge the oil there by means of pumps from the shore. Secondly, that shells fired from mortars, or canisters attached to a rocket, should be filled with oil, and arranged so as to discharge their contents on the water near to the ship in need of assistance. Thirdly, that a special form of projectile filled with oil should be used to throw among the breakers. Fourthly, that every seagoing ship should be compelled by law to carry vessels of oil to throw overboard to still the waters round her in times of danger, and that all boats should also carry a supply in their bows ready for use. Fifthly, that all life-buoys should have a small bag of oil attached to them as part of their equipment. He ventured to think it was perfectly clear that no Government could undertake these experiments, and that it was purely a matter for private enterprize. He was very
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  glad to confirm what the noble Earl had said of the steps that private individuals had for some time past taken in this direction. Great credit was due to Mr. Shield, who, as the noble Earl pointed out, had carried out experiments with this object at Peterhead. He had attempted to lay pipes behind the sea wall at Roanhead, down through a natural gully in the rocks, about 150 yards long and about 50 yards beyond the mouth of the gully into about seven fathoms of water. At this point the iron pipe was joined by a gutta-percha pipe, which extended across the harbour entrance outside the bar, and was perforated at distances of about 12 yards apart; and through this gutta-percha pipe the oil reached the sea. So far, he (Lord Sudeley) believed Mr. Shield was disposed to allow that his experiments had reached a certain point, but were by no means conclusive; and this their Lordships might see by the mere fact that he was now waiting for bad weather to renew them. Whether such a plan could ever be made of practical use remained to be seen. Of one thing there could be no doubt, that a great quantity of oil would have to be used; a considerable expense incurred in laying pipes outside the harbours, and keeping them in good working order; and that when all had been provided, there would arise the great danger that the various currents and tides would draw away the oil film spread upon the waters before it could be of any service. Experiments had also been carried out, and would be probably made during the ensuing winter, by private individuals for firing shells and various other descriptions of projectiles filled with oil. In some of the trials which had been made for using oil to calm the surf, and thus enable boats to land easily, curious and very contradictory evidence had been obtained. In the first place, it was doubted by very competent authorities whether oil could be used with advantage where there was a force of wind amounting to a whole gale, which might be put down at 10—whether, in fact, it could be used with any advantage against a force of wind exceeding 6. The general opinion was that in a heavy gale it would be of no use. Again, in the second place, experiments had been tried with the oil for landing boats through surf; but they had proved entirely unsuccessful, owing to sharp currents and tides setting the film

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  of oil along the shore, and thus preventing it being of any use. Further, it had been found very doubtful if, when the wind set full upon the shore, and a high surf was raised, it was possible to prevent the oil being washed rapidly out to sea. Their Lordships were aware that a rush of water back from a surf was usually supposed to return as an under-current, or, as it was technically called, the "under-tow," in which people were very often swept away. It had been found by experiment that there was also, in most cases, a very strong surface current drawing out; and, in one instance, the oil was swept out so quickly to sea that it was perfectly useless. He mentioned these facts to show to their Lordships the difficulties and uncertainties attending this oil scheme; but, at the same time, some of the experiments seemed to point to the fact that oil could be very well used round a ship to allow boats to approach. There was an idea which seemed well worthy of trial, to the effect that small bags of oil should be attached to life-buoys, which could be pricked at the moment of throwing them overboard, so as to calm the surface of the sea round them. There could be no doubt that cases constantly occurred of all trace of a life-buoy being lost after it was in the water; whereas, if there was a smooth, oily surface round it, the probabilities were that it would be distinctly seen from the ship, and also give the person overboard more chance of seizing it. He was glad to be able to inform their Lordships that the National Lifeboat Institution were carrying out experiments in connection with this subject, and had given directions to their officers at their various stations to attend to and report upon them. The Institution hoped, in the course of a year or so, to publish their officers Reports, and they would be sure to contain a large amount of information that would be interesting and instructive. Thanks to the courtesy of the Secretary (Mr. Lewis), and also of Admiral Ward, he (Lord Sudeley) had had the opportunity of seeing all their papers on the subject, and could testify to their very interesting character. When the Board of Trade had collected all the authenticated cases, divested of the exaggeration which so often was met with, of actual saving of life from smoothing the surface of the sea with oil, together with the Reports of their officers
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  on the various experiments being made, they proposed to lay them before Parliament, in the hope that they might be of use; and if, in the meantime, the noble Earl would communicate any precise information that he might have obtained, or would advise anybody acquainted with facts to state them to the Board of Trade, it would be a very great assistance in presenting as complete and satisfactory a Report as possible. There was great hope that some of the suggestions might turn out of great use; but it was a matter for private individuals to make experiments. It was quite impossible, as he had already said, for the Board of Trade to take such matters in hand, and attempt a series of the necessary experiments, for it would be manifestly unfair to saddle the taxpayer with their cost, and with the expense of providing large supplies of oil, and the necessary apparatus and men around the Coast to hurl it into the water when requisite. It would also be futile for the Government to call upon Parliament to pass a law requiring all sea going ships to carry a number of tanks and bags of oil as an absolute part of their equipment. He ventured to think, therefore, it was perfectly clear that this was not a question to be settled by public direction and money, but one well suited for private enterprize. He would only say, in conclusion, that, although the Board of Trade were not sanguine that the results would be anything like so satisfactory as some people imagined, they hoped that some good might be brought about by collecting all available and authenticated information; and he had to thank the noble Earl very much, on behalf of the Board of Trade, for bringing forward this question, which was one of great interest. It was of importance that the matter should be ventilated as much as possible, and that whatever knowledge might exist on the subject should be widely diffused among the seafaring community; and if this were done great good might result from his action in the matter.
  THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: I also wish to assure the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Carnarvon) that my attention has been called to this subject. I have asked my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Chamberlain) to communicate to the Admiralty any information which he may obtain, so that the attention of the

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  Board of Admiralty may be given to matter.

ANCIENT MONUMENTS BILL.
(The Lord Chancellor.)
ANCIENT MONUMENTS BILL.

  (NO. 197.) COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
  Moved, "That this House do now resolve itself into Committee."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that, as this Bill interfered very seriously with the rights of property, they ought to have some assurance from the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack that the Schedule had been framed by competent authority after due inquiry, so that no injury would be done to the rights of private owners.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR,in reply, said, that the Bill differed only in one respect—namely, in being voluntary, and therefore not interfering with any rights of property against the will of the owners—from former Bills which had been for several years successively before Parliament, and it had been carefully considered by the Office of Works. He had reason to believe that the Schedule of the Bill contained only those monuments as to the value and importance of which there was an agreement among all persons interested in the preservation of ancient monuments.
  LORD TALBOT DE MALAHIDEthanked the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack for the introduction of the measure, because, although it did not go so far as he could have wished, it would lead to the preservation of a great many most valuable ancient monuments. In his opinion, this country was very much behind other European nations in this respect; and, as regarded the expense incurred in such preservation, he thought the Government very often strained at gnats and swallowed camels. A few years since there was an attempt, which had proved most successful, to extend this law to Ireland. By this means prehistoric monuments, both lay and ecclesiastical, in Ireland had been secured from destruction. The Rock of Cashel he might mention as one of the relics of antiquity which had been preserved.
  Motion agreed to; House in Committee accordingly.
  Clauses 1 to 10, inclusive, agreed to, with Amendments.
  Schedule.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYmoved to exclude from the Schedule an ancient monument, the property of his noble Friend (the Duke of Richmond). His noble Friend expressed himself as perfectly willing and able to protect-the relic from destruction.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORopposed the Amendment.
  Amendment negatived.
  THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCHsaid, that the Bill appeared to be entirely permissive; and he presumed that as to those monuments which were not in the Schedule, it would be open to the Commissioners of Works to accept them or not.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that monuments not mentioned in the Schedule would not at present come within the scope of the Bill; but he would consider, against a future stage, whether provision might not be made for adding others, with the concurrence of the owners and the Board of Works.
  Schedule agreed to.
  House resumed.
  The Report of the Amendments to be received on Monday next.

THE CHANNEL TUNNEL SCHEME.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD FORBESasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether the works in connection with the Channel Tunnel scheme have been stopped by authority; and if the Government will pledge themselves that the works shall not be proceeded with until the Report of the Committee and any other Papers connected with the scheme be laid on the Table of the House and the opinion of Parliament taken on the whole subject? He approached the question on national grounds, and thought it most desirable that the views of the House should be expressed upon it. In his opinion, it was most undesirable that this Tunnel should be made; and he thought Her Majesty's Government should give a promise that nothing further should be done in respect to it until the Papers had been laid on the Table. He was opposed to anything which would destroy

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  the insularity that had been the safety of England, and, in some respects, the cause of her glory.
  VISCOUNT POWERSCOURTsaid, he could not understand the extraordinary opposition that had been evinced with regard to this matter. Nothing could be more calculated to cement amicable relations between England and France and the rest of the world than the completion of this scheme; and he hoped Her Majesty's Government would not commit themselves to a permanent opposition to it.
  LORD SUDELEY: The works have been stopped by an order of the Court of Chancery, granted on the application of the Board of Trade. As has been already stated in "another place," the Report of the Committee, together with a Memorandum by the military authorities, will be laid before Parliament in a few days, and ample opportunity will be afforded to Parliament to express an opinion on the subject.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONasked, if the noble Lord referred to the Report of the Channel Tunnel Committee?
  LORD SUDELEY: Yes.
  LORD FORBESinquired whether anything further would be done until the Reports had been laid on the Table?
  LORD SUDELEY: Nothing whatever, without leave.

CYPRUS—ARRIVAL OF REFUGEES FROM ALEXANDRIA.

  MOTION FOR PAPERS.
  LORD WAVENEYrose to call the attention of Her Majesty's Government to the condition of the Island of Cyprus with reference to colonization, and to move for Papers, if any, relating to the arrival of refugees from Alexandria during the recent troubles, and the preparations, if any, for their permanent reception. The noble Lord said that the object he had in view was not to make political capital out of this question for the benefit of the one Party or the other, but to develop the natural resources of the Island. Cyprus had proved of very great importance to us. It had been one of our island fortresses, and might also be made one of our island colonies. It might become an asylum for the industry driven from Egypt, but, in order to secure that, there must be no doubt about our intention of keeping the possession of the Island. He would
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  admit that there had been a great many improvements made in it since it had been in our possession, and that an admirable system of administrative machinery had been introduced into the Island under the direction of Sir Garnet Wolseley as the first High Commissioner. One thing, however, that would be necessary to be brought about, before we could colonize the Island, would be that we should not merely have a temporary possession of it, but that it should become actually a portion of the freehold of the British Empire. Although the Revenue of the Island had merely balanced the Expenditure a year or two ago, it might be confidently anticipated that, under a fair and just Government, the former would be largely increased. It must be remembered that the Island of Cyprus was at one time one of the most beautiful islands in the Eastern part of the Mediterranean, and that it was through the misgovernment of the Turks that its mountains had been denuded of their forests, causing its streams to dry up and its verdure to disappear. With the care and skill of civilization, the beauty and the fertility of the Island might easily be restored. The harbour of Famagusta, which would easily accommodate 14 of our iron-clads, had been allowed to deteriorate through the wasteful neglect of the Turkish Government; but it might be improved so as to give us a most important naval station in those waters, which we did not at present possess. As a military station, also, it would be of the utmost importance, as it lay directly in the path between Egypt and Turkey, and no force dare approach Constantinople without our leave if we held it in strength. He did not propose that the Island should be converted into a second Gibraltar; but he thought we should turn it into an armed fortress for the protection of British commerce. The noble Lord concluded by making the Motion of which he had given Notice.
  Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for papers, if any, relating to the arrival in Cyprus of refugees from Alexandria during the recent troubles, and the preparations, if any, for their permanent reception.—(The Lord Waveney.)
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, his noble Friend (Lord Waveney) had made a very interesting statement as to Cyprus, and had gone a little further than he

  19
  (the Earl of Kimberley) expected from his Notice. He hardly anticipated that their Lordships would expect him to enter into the whole question with respect to Cyprus; but he would rather confine himself to the one of which Notice had been given—namely, the question of colonization. On the subject of the Revenue, he might, in passing, mention one fact which would be of interest to their Lordships. A very careful inquiry which had been made into the finances of Cyprus convinced the Government that, on the average of years, they could not, at all events for some time to come, hope that the Revenue and Expenditure of the Island could be made to meet without a yearly grant of at least £40,000 from the Parliament of this country. He did not say that to depreciate the value of Cyprus; but he thought it was as well that he should state the result of the inquiry. In the present year, he believed, the deficit would be much larger; but, in future years, the Government hoped to be able to reduce it to about £40,000. In this calculation he, of course, took into account the tribute payable to the Porte, but for which the Revenue would be in a perfectly flourishing condition. His noble Friend had referred not only to the colonization of the Island, but to the tenure of land and other questions, as well as to its facility as a place of refuge, and the necessity of improving the harbours. Their Lordships would not forget that we held Cyprus by Treaty with the Porte; and while he (the Earl of Kimberley) admitted that it had some advantages as a military station, and its general bearing upon the politics of the Eastern world, he hardly thought, as he had said, that the House would require him to enter into the whole of the questions raised by the noble Lord. He would, however, say a word in regard to the harbours, which were a matter of considerable interest. There was, in fact, but one harbour in Cyprus, or, rather, there might be one—namely, at Famagusta. That harbour, in its present condition, was not fully available; but from the Reports which had been made on it, he believed it would be possible, at no very great expense, to render it a very useful and, to a certain extent, commodious harbour, even for a certain number of large vessels of war. But the construction of a military harbour
  20
  necessarily implied fortifications to protect it; and, although the harbour might be improved at an expense probably not very serious, yet the fortifications which, owing to the nature of the ground, it would be necessary to construct for the protection of the harbour, must cost a very large sum indeed. For commercial purposes such a harbour was not likely to be much used, because the tendency was for vessels to go to Limasol and Larnaca. The accommodation at both those places was being improved, and it was hoped it would result in a large increase of commerce at them. Indeed, an extensive improvement in that respect had already taken place at Limasol. As to the question of colonization immediately, alluded to by his noble Friend, he might point out that when England took over this Island it was already occupied by a large Native population, who possessed rights of all kinds over the land, and it was extremely difficult to find places where common rights did not exist; it would, consequently, be very difficult to introduce settlers in any considerable number to cultivate the soil. At the same time, he perfectly recognized the importance of the question, and was at one with his noble Friend in wishing to give every encouragement to settlers in Cyprus. There were a certain number of persons from Asia Minor who had settled in the Island; and as the Island increased in prosperity, which it might be expected to do under English rule, he thought there would be an increased influx of persons who came in search of a secure asylum, which he hoped they would always receive under the Government of the Queen. The present population might appear exceedingly small when compared with the population in ancient times; but they must look to the actual condition of the Island, and to the amount of population which it would support. Much of the land not now under cultivation required to be provided with the means of irrigation, which would be a very expensive process; and it was probable that, as matters stood, any sudden increase of population might be attended with large distress. The present rate of wages in the Island was extremely low, and with the mode of cultivation adopted there was not employment for a large number of hands. The most promising industry was the cultivation of the vine.

  21
  That had greatly declined under the pressure of Turkish taxation and misrule; but under our administration it was showing a marked tendency to improve; and it was the intention of the Government, by every means in their power—whether by relief from taxation or otherwise—to encourage that valuable industry. An important market for Cyprus wine existed in France, and it would be interesting to their Lordships to know that they drank Cyprus wine in the shape of French claret, for it was largely imported into France for strengthening the wines of that country.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Is there no phylloxera in Cyprus?
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, that at present, happily, there was no phylloxera. He had been told that the great objection to Cyprus wine was the fact that it was brought down in goatskins, which were tarred inside; but that objection might be obviated by the simple expedient of providing good roads. As to the production of Papers asked for, the fact was that there were scarcely any to produce, and most certainly not any worth printing. He might, however, read a despatch he had recently received from the High Commissioner. That despatch was as follows:—
  "Mount Troodos, July 8, 1882. My Lord,—I have the honour to transmit a Return of refugees who have arrived here from Egypt, showing the nationalities of those who have arrived at Larnaca. I continue to receive assurances that most of those who have arrived in Cyprus are fairly well-to-do people. Doubtless they have suffered some losses, and it is possible that after a short time they will come to the end of their resources. I have given passages to their homes in Malta, Smyrna, and Beyrout, for some women who came alone, and who stated that their friends were in those places, and I shall carefully watch for cases of destitution. I have ordered a record to be kept of the nationalities of those relieved, and to make a Report on the same in due course.—I have, &c, ROBERT BIDDULPH."
  In a later despatch Sir Robert Biddulph said—
  "I have formed sub-committees at Larnaca and Limasol, at both of which places the refugees are congregated, and I have placed a sum of £100 at the disposal of each for the relief of distress."
  The total number of refugees who had arrived from Egypt in Cyprus was 3,029, and preparations had been made for the reception of persons at Larnaca and Limasol, and a sum of money had been
  22
  contributed to provide for any contingencies that might arise. He had no apprehension of any serious inconvenience arising from an influx of these people into Cyprus. On the contrary, he thought they would form a valuable addition to the population. There were many of the refugees who were in tolerable circumstances, and there was every reason to hope that they would find profitable employment. He ought to allude to a matter to which the noble Lord who had made the Motion had made but very slight reference—namely, to the experiment, unfortunately very unsatisfactory as it had turned out, of establishing a Maltese Colony in Cyprus. The plan had been proposed for consideration, during the existence of the late Government, by the High Commissioner; but, in the meantime, it was undertaken by a private gentleman of Malta, as an experiment on his own account, and under it a certain number of Maltese had been sent to that Island. They had arrived under unfavourable conditions, and had been placed in a part of the Island where, it seemed, they had not been usefully employed. They had, therefore, become dissatisfied, many of the Colonists fell ill, some of them died, and, the Colony breaking up, the remainder ultimately returned home, carrying with them very unfavourable ideas of life in Cyprus. It was matter of regret that the experiment had not been tried under more favourable circumstances, because it had had the effect of producing a bad impression in Malta. He had great doubt, indeed, whether the Maltese would succeed in Cyprus, as they spoke a peculiar language, a dialect of Arabic, and the emigrants were not people disposed to agricultural labour, being mostly porters, small traders, and the different classes of persons to be found generally in such places as Alexandria, but for whose services there was no outlet at present in Cyprus. In addition to that, it was also found that they did not agree very well with the Native population. Although it had no reference to the present Motion, he might be allowed to mention that there was a desire in Malta to encourage emigration to Queensland, and there was hope that such a scheme would be carried out, and that that country would suit the Maltese. For himself, however, he

  23
  was not very sanguine about it, on the ground of the expense. He could assure his noble Friend that the subject was engaging the attention of Her Majesty's Government, and that emigration would be encouraged in every way.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, he regretted that the Maltese emigration to Cyprus took place under conditions which led to failure; but he thought that, in some respects, the fact that the Maltese did not get on well with the Cypriote population was a circumstance in their favour. The noble Lord who brought forward this question (Lord Waveney) had travelled over a large space of ground; but he (the Earl of Carnarvon) would only refer to the system of government in Cyprus. He had recently read a very interesting despatch of the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies (the Earl of Kimberley), in which he had revised the Constitution of the Council of Cyprus. He could not say that he had read that despatch with unalloyed satisfaction. He objected to the alterations which would be made in the Council in regard to the official and elected Members—there would be a majority of two to one of the latter, and the elected Members would be divided into nine Christians and three Mahomedans, elected by Christians and Mahomedans respectively. He was the last person in the House to say a word against elective institutions; but they should be applied at a fitting time and to fitting persons. In this case, however, as in the cases of Jamaica and Ceylon, he did not think the new Constitution would work well, and he did not know why the change had been made. The second objection he had to bring against the scheme was that it divided the people distinctly into the classes of Christian and Mahomedan, giving the Christian population, in proportion to their numbers it was true, a majority of two to one. It would have been more satisfactory if the elected Members had been equal in number, as it was very important that there should be no doubt in the minds of any portion of the population that their rights were not completely safeguarded, and that they had complete justice done to them. He hoped that it would not become necessary to interfere to correct any errors which might arise; but he was glad to find from the despatch which he had referred to that there was
  24
  a power taken to make alterations hereafter, should the present arrangements not prove satisfactory, so that it might be hoped that a suitable opportunity would be taken for retracing any step which had been hastily adopted.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that his noble Friend (the Earl of Kimberley) had paused before rising, in order to give any other noble Lord an opportunity of speaking before he answered his noble Friend (Lord Waveney) who had brought forward this subject. It was, therefore, a little inconvenient that the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Carnarvon) did not take advantage of that opportunity. His noble Friend certainly had not expected that the noble Earl opposite would, on that occasion, have entered into a disquisition on the details of the Constitution of Cyprus; but, if he desired to do so, it would have come better before his noble Friend was, by the Rules of the House, precluded from replying to it. The noble Earl had complained of his noble Friend for having given a Constitution to Cyprus, and referred to those of Ceylon and Jamaica as not having worked well; but the cases were very different. In those Islands there were small numbers of white and large numbers of coloured populations; while in Cyprus it was just the reverse. Another thing which the noble Earl had forgotten was that Crete, which was under the dominion of the Sultan, was not very far from Cyprus, and that the Greeks there had very large powers in regard to representation. He did not pretend now to answer all the details which the noble Earl had sprung upon them; but he would content himself with having pointed out the fallacy which he had indicated, and would only add that, in any case where it might be found necessary, the official Members with the Mahomedans would be in a majority as against the Greeks.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBUBYsaid, he did not wish to enter upon a discussion as to the Constitution of Cyprus; but he thought the warning which his noble Friend (the Earl of Carnarvon) had given the Government in connection with Jamaica and Ceylon was a very useful one, and he trusted that they would not overlook it, and that the parallel between the two cases would not hereafter be justified. He did not rise for the purpose of defending Cy-

  25
  prus, as that Island would, no doubt, take care of itself in the future, and justify itself. But there were two points in the speech of the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies (the Earl of Kimberley) with reference to which he wished to make some remarks. The noble Earl had spoken of the Island as costing the country £40,000 a-year. He (the Marquess of Salisbury) might be wrong; but his own impression was that more than this proportion, the £90,000 a-year which was paid to the Sultan by Cyprus, was laid hold of by the Treasury to satisfy the interest on the Guaranteed Debt, which the Sultan owed to this country from 1855. Therefore, he thought that if they put together all that Cyprus brought in, and all that it took away, they would find there was a considerable sum to the credit of Cyprus; and he mentioned it to show that it was not, in a pecuniary sense, a bad bargain—there was, in fact, a considerable surplus. These facts should be known to the public. The noble Earl spoke about the Maltese being diseased and the Colony depressed, and the inference was that Cyprus was an unhealthy island. Now, as a military station—the noble Earl would be able to correct him if he were wrong—Cyprus had been found, he believed, to be the healthiest military station in the British Empire. Four years ago the late Government had had many reproaches levelled at them. Among other evils they were charged with was the commercial crisis, the long frost, and the un-healthiness of Cyprus. He was happy to see that under the auspices of the present Government, Cyprus had become no evil at all; but something quite the reverse, and the unhealthiness of Cyprus had disappeared.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, that he was not able to confirm the statement made by the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury), that Cyprus was the most healthy station in the British Empire, although he would not assert the contrary, because he had not seen the statistics on the subject. But, at the same time, he felt bound to admit that the Reports which had reached him went to show that the late Government were extremely unfortunate in regard to the first year when they took over Cyprus, because it was an exceptionally unfavourable one. Since that time, al-
  26
  though fevers had been common in Cyprus, as in other Mediterranean islands, neither the station nor the island could be called unhealthy.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONrose for the purpose of explaining that he was not aware that he was expected to rise immediately after the noble Lord (Lord Waveney), or he would have done so.
  LORD DUNSANYsaid, he was glad that the Government were turning the Island to the best account. It was a good station for our ships of war. A harbour might be made, though, no doubt, it would cost something; but the money would be, under the circumstances, well laid out. He thought that the Island would suit the Maltese from Tunis and other places.
  LORD WAVENEYsaid, after the explanation of the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies, he would withdraw his Motion.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

ENDOWED SCHOOLS—DULWICH COLLEGE SCHEME:

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  THE EARL OF MILLTOWNrose to move—
  "That an humble address be presented to Her Majesty praying Her Majesty to withhold Her assent from the scheme of the Charity Commissioners for the administration of Alleyne's College of God's Gift at Dulwich, now on the Table of this House."
  That scheme, he said, was open to objection on several points. It did not carry out the wishes of the founder, and it was proposed to deprive the parish of Camberwell of all right to participate in the increased income of the Charity. He thought the representatives of that parish had not had a fair and patient hearing.
  Moved, "That an humble address be presented to Her Majesty praying Her Majesty to withhold Her assent from the scheme of the Charity Commissioners for the administration of Alleyne's College of God's Gift at Dulwich, now on the Table of this House."—(The Earl of Milltown.)
  LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRIVY SEAL)said, he hoped that their Lordships would not agree to the Motion. This was the seventh scheme in recent years for the purpose of dealing with the increasing revenues of this College, and he hoped that it would be the last. The matter had been under

  27
  the consideration of the Charity Commissioners for the last 10 years; and, therefore, he was at a loss to know what the noble Earl's (the Earl of Milltown's) idea of patience was. The subject had been considered and re-considered, and every possible party concerned had been heard and re-heard, and there had been an enormous amount of thought and labour expended upon it; and now that the scheme had been lying on the Table of the House for two months, and would, in the ordinary course, become law on Monday next, the noble Earl, at the end of all this, came down on that Friday night, with a courage which was worthy of a better cause, and asked their Lordships to reject the scheme. Under the circumstances, it would not be respectful to the House to go into the details of the case. The scheme appeared to him (Lord Carlingford) to be a very fair and proper one. Everybody in authority was satisfied with it, not even excepting those who represented the parties who had found out the noble Earl and asked him to oppose it, for under it Camberwell would be the most liberally endowed parish in the United Kingdom. He hoped their Lordships would not, at such short Notice and without full information, attempt to overthrow a scheme which had been the result of such long deliberation, and which was supported by the large majority of parties interested in the Charity.
  LORD COLCHESTERsaid, he also thought it most undesirable that the scheme should be rejected. He trusted that their Lordships would not assent to the Motion, which, he was convinced, besides amounting to a Vote of Censure upon the Education Department, would have a most unfortunate effect on the well-being of Dulwich College.
  On question, resolved in the negative.

  BILLS OF EXCHANGE BILL.
  Select Committee on: The Lords following were named of the Committee:

  Ld. Chancellor.

  L. Coleridge.

  E. Cairns.

  L. Watson.

  L. Balfour.

  L. Blackburn.

  L. Penzance.

  L. Bramwell.

  L. Wolverton.

  L. Fitzgerald.

  L. O'Hagan.

  The Committee to meet on Monday next, at Twelve o'clock, and to appoint their own Chairman.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Seven o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter past Four o'clock.