Lords Sitting of 13 July 1882

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Beer Dealers' Retail Licences Act (1880) Amendment * (192).
Second Reading—Corn Returns (No. 2) (187).
Report—Judgments (Inferior Courts) * (110).
Third Reading—Stolen Goods * (185), and passed.

NEW PEER.
Sir Harcourt Van don Bemp de-John-stone, Baronet, having been created Baron Derwent, of Hackness in the North Riding of the county of York—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.

EGYPT (MILITARY OPERATIONS)— PROCEEDINGS OF THE FLEET AT ALEXANDRIA.—QUESTION.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I wish to ask the noble Earl the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether he can give the House any information as to the terrible events now taking place at Alexandria?
THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: My Lords, all the telegrams we have received at the Admiralty from the Admiral and from his Secretary have been communicated to the Press; but perhaps it would be better that I should inform your Lordships, in some consecutive order, of the telegrams we have received since the last information I communicated to your Lordships. On Tuesday night we received a short telegram from Sir Beauchamp Seymour himself, saying that he had attacked the batteries in the morning, silenced the forts, and that a landing party from the Invincible—the party, it appears from a telegram from the Secretary, consisted of 12 officers and men—had burst three guns, and spiked six in Fort Meks. He also sent a nominal roll of the casualties. On Wednesday, we heard that, at half-past 10, the Inflexible and Téméraire each fired three shells into the Moncrieff Battery, at Ras-el-Tin. No other ships were engaged. There was no response from the shore, and at noon further operations were suspended, in consequence of a flag of truce having been hoisted at the arsenal. One of our gunboats, with a flag of truce, proceeded there to communicate. The terms demanded by the Admiral of the Military Commandant were the same as those at first demanded—namely, that the forts on the Isthmus and those commanding the entrance to the harbour should be temporarily surrendered for the purpose of disarmament. These terms, which your Lordships will observe were most moderate under the circumstances—the disarmament having practically taken place by the guns of the Fleet—were refused, and the flag of truce struck.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: How long did the flag of truce continue flying?
THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: From 12 to 3 o'clock. As far as I can ascertain, the time was somewhere about three hours. One shot was then fired by us into the lines at Meks, which are about four miles to the west of the town. On this, the flag of truce was hoisted again, and our fire ceased, and has not since been resumed. This morning we received the following telegram from the Admiral:—
"Immense conflagration in Alexandria last night. Forts apparently abandoned, and entire garrison withdrawn under flag of truce, leaving

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convicts to pillage and fire the town. Invincible, Monarch, Penclope, and gunboats inside harbour. Other iron-clads under weigh off the New Port."
It seems that the soldiery, having released the convicts, left their fellow-countrymen to be pillaged and murdered. There is no reason to suppose that the conflagration arose from the fire of the ships. In point of fact, during the whole of yesterday only seven shots were fired; and, so far as we can judge, it is in the highest degree improbable that any of those shots could have caused the conflagration to occur. The Queen having commanded me to acquaint the officers and men of Her Majesty's approval of their conduct on the 11th, and to inquire as to the condition of the wounded, the reply of the Admiral's Secretary to-day is that, as far as ho could learn, they were doing well. The answer to-day to an inquiry as to the safety of the Khedive is that nothing certain is known; but he is believed to be at Ramleh, where the Turkish steam yacht is anchored, apparently waiting until the weather will allow him to embark. There was a very heavy sea yesterday off Alexandria, which has made communication between the Admiral and the telegraph ship, the Chiltern, which was lying some five miles from Alexandria, difficult, and that will quite account for the infrequency of the communications that we have been able to receive from the Admiral. The Chiltern is now being moved into, or quite near to, the harbour. The telegrams received from time to time have been from the Admiral's Secretary, who has sent us what he has been able himself to observe from the Chiltern.
THE EARL OF CARNARVON: The telegrams my noble Friend has just read say nothing with regard to the terrible report circulated in some of the newspapers as to the massacre of the European and Christian population. It would be very satisfactory to the House if the noble Earl could add anything in disproof of that statement.
THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: I have read to the House the whole of the official information which we have received from Alexandria. Her Majesty's Government have no other knowledge than that which other Members of your Lordships' House have respecting the report to which my noble Friend has referred.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Is it a fact that a portion of the town was set on fire on Tuesday by the fire from the ships, and has the noble Earl any knowledge that the fire was extinguished?
THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: We have no knowledge of any portion of the town having been set on fire by the fire from the ships. No information to that effect has been given to us. It appears to me, on looking at the chart and consulting with the Naval authorities, that Sir Beauchamp Seymour has taken, in the operations he has carried on, every possible precaution to prevent his guns having any effect upon the town of Alexandria. I should say it is not probable that any fire which has taken place could have seriously damaged the town. The Palace, doubtless, was set on fire by the ships, because it is situated close to the Ras-el-Tin Fort.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I wish to ask the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether Her Majesty's Government are prevented by any diplomatic engagements from landing troops for the purpose of taking possession of the forts and maintaining order?
EARL GRANVILLE: I do not think we should be debarred from taking steps in that direction, and we are quite ready to do so. Instructions have been given with regard to landing troops. Assistance of that kind will be given if it is required.
EARL DE LA WARRasked whether the bombardment of the forts of Alexandria by British ships took place with the concurrence of the other Powders; and whether it was true that the Porte had continued to protest against such a course?
EARL GRANVILLE: In answer to the noble Earl, I have to state that Her Majesty's Government consider that the exceptional measure taken by the Admiral in self-defence is quite separate from the general question of restoring order in Egypt, which is the subject before the Conference at Constantinople. We have no reason to believe that any of the Great Powers take a different view from ourselves in that respect. The Sultan has made some remonstrances; but they have been based on the information he has received from Alexandria, and on the assurances which were given that no

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preparations were going on, and that the Egyptians wore not arming the forts. That information and those assurances have been proved to be quite incorrect.

CORN RETURNS (No. 2) BILL.
(The lord Sudeley.)
CORN RETURNS (No. 2) BILL.

  (NO. 187.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Beading read,
  LORD SUDELEY, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said: The Bill to which I have to ask your Lordships to give a second reading is one of a very technical character, and is intended solely to amend the machinery by which corn averages were determined, and about which complaints have been made for some years by agriculturists. The Bill does not interfere in the smallest degree with the Tithe Settlement of 1836, and avoids all proposals for the disturbance of that measure. What it is designed to do is by improving the machinery of the Corn Acts to obtain a proper Return of actual prices from fairly representative market towns; so that there can be no doubt that The Gazette averages are fair representations of the average current prices of English corn sold in the markets. The chief provisions of the Bill are—First (under Clause 4), to give power to the Board of Trade to increase the number and alter the market towns from which the Returns are obtained, provided they are not less than 150 or more than 200 in number, so that all important markets may be included, and the quantity of corn on which the price is calculated may thus be increased. The reason for the proposed alteration is owing to the fact that many towns have largely changed their character as market towns for British corn since the present places were selected—principally owing to the great increase of railway communications; and these selected places must, therefore, from time to time, stand in need of revision. Secondly (under Clauses 5 and 6), it proposes to increase the quantity of corn returned, and to secure the fairness of the average by improving the machinery both for collecting returns and for prosecuting defaulters. Thirdly (under Clause 8), as a large amount of corn is now sold by weight, it provides a fair conversion for the returns of prices made
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  by weight, so that the tithes may not be unfairly increased by being calculated on the prices of a measure larger than the Imperial bushel. These weights have been most carefully settled, after consultation with all the best authorities on the subject. It is hoped by this Bill to remedy the three subjects of complaint which have been made of late years—namely, the falling off in the quantity of corn returned; the alleged insufficiency of the quantity returned to give a true average; and the alleged difference which large quantities of corn being now taken by weight instead of measure are supposed to produce. The provisions of the Bill are those which were approved by Mr. Little, one of the Assistant Commissioners, in his evidence before the Royal Commission. It has passed the House of Commons without any opposition, and I trust your Lordships will give it a second reading.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Lord Sudeley.)
  LORD DENMANsaid, that he was glad that the Bill did not apply to Ireland or Scotland. The averages were a most important subject; and the quantity of wheat grown in England should be known, for the diminution of the growth of corn was very serious. In 1815, when rioters pulled down the house of the Father of the present Viceroy of India, a Relative of his (Lord Denman's) wrote—
  "There is a false notion that Corn Laws tend to starve the people. I have a farm (of 400 acres) on which only enough wheat is grown for the good of the family, so am an impartial judge, and hold a Corn Law to he necessary."
  For years such statesmen as Lord Fitzwilliam, and Sir James Graham, and his late lamented Relative, advocated and prayed for a fixed duty as against Free Trade; but it was too long delayed, and the sliding scale, by means of the averages, prevented the country from importing corn, and the farmer from receiving the value of his wheat, because the average price of corn was, by fictitious sales, raised just before the harvest, so as to make the duty low; and at the time of harvest, the price being low, no corn could come in. The late Sir Robert Peel never confessed the failure of his sliding scale, when, apparently, it was at its best; and Lord John Russell, by a published letter, made a fixed duty impos-

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  sible by that letter dealing with abolition. The. late Premier (the Earl of Derby) in 1852 and 1867, alone suggested the practicable course of opening the ports during the potato famine, and waiting to settle the course for the future in calmer moments. In fact, if they forced owners and occupiers of land to turn cornfields into pastures, the growth of corn would be less; and as a good harvest was deemed prosperous, so the dependence on foreign supplies for a larger quantity each year would tend to starve the people.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.