HL Deb 07 July 1882 vol 271 cc1765-70

House in Committee (according to order).

Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.

Clause 3 (Special warrant for search for stolen goods).

EARL BEAUCHAMP

proposed an Amendment to the clause, for the purpose of limiting the proposed right of the police to carry away from searched premises goods supposed to have been stolen to the removal of goods "reported" as having been stolen. He said that the clause gave very great powers to the police, which, in many cases, could not be executed without causing great trouble and hardship to parties on whose premises goods supposed to have been stolen were found, or, in some instances, to the owners themselves. In the case of pawnbrokers, the transactions returned by 731 pawnbrokers were 200,000,000, and of that large number the proportion of the stolen goods was 1 in 14,000. The clause would affect pawnbrokers very seriously, and, unless the Amendment were accepted, would make it impossible for them to carry on their business, the result being to drive the trade into the hands of less respectable men.

Amendment moved, In page 1, line 24, to leave out ("articles there found which appear to him,") and insert ("such goods as may have been reported to the police.")—(The Earl Beauchamp.)

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

said, he could not accept the Amendment. The clause, he must say, had not been framed with a special view to pawnbrokers, as it affected the public generally, and not pawnbrokers only. He must guard their Lordships, also, against the fallacy of supposing that the proportion of stolen goods, which actually came into the hands of pawnbrokers, though doubtless generally without knowledge that they were stolen, was to be measured by the number of cases in which they were discovered. It must be considerably greater, as in innumerable cases the stolen property could not be traced. That fact was one of the main reasons for some of the provisions of the present Bill. The noble Earl again had taken an absurd position in contending that the police officer should only take stolen property indicated, and should have no alternative but to leave other property which he would be equally satisfied had been stolen. If the Amendment were accepted, difficulties would arise, which the clause, as it stood, would obviate. Supposing a search were made in the box of a suspected servant, and supposing the plate of the servant's master were found in it, and also silver goods bearing the names of other persons, the police, if the Amendment were agreed to, might be unable to touch the latter, because the articles might not have been reported as having been stolen. Suppose the box of a letter-carrier searched for letters not delivered, in which there were valuable in closures, and many other letters to different persons, with other valuable in closures, at the same time found. There was the case of a servant on the Great Western Railway, whose house was searched for certain stolen articles, and goods of another kind were found which from their nature could not have been honestly acquired. Should not the police have power to take these goods? The goods would be taken to the Court, and the police would have to give reasons for having seized them. If improperly taken, they would, on application, be promptly restored. The warrant could only be executed by a superior officer of police, and, unless these powers were maintained in the Bill, it would be very much weakened.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

said it was true that the warrant must be applied for by a superior officer of police; but any officer of police might go on the premises and make the search. That was an interference with the liberty of the subject, and the question was whether they ought to give these powers to the police on the assumption that they would not misuse them. To give an officer a warrant to arrest a person not named in it was found to be an intolerable violation of liberty, and this was a similar proposal with respect to goods. He objected to the comprehensive character of the powers given by the clause, which reminded him of the similarly extensive and reprehensive powers formerly given by general warrants. He thought the advantage to the owner would not be balanced by the grievous wrong done to the holder, and in some instances to the owner. The pawnbroker's business was one of secrecy, and the clause would operate against those persons who, through necessitous circumstances, had to pawn their goods, and who might legitimately desire secrecy in doing so, but who would not do so if they thought the fact of their doing so might become known. Now, the clause would tend to that effect, because if a policeman took away by mistake some goods regarding which he had suspicion, they could only be given up to their real owners, who might be called upon to show how they became possessed of them. Pawnbrokers also would be subjected to harsh treatment, and the trade would fall more and more into the hands of disreputable persons. The state of the House was not favorable to a full consideration of the Bill, and appeals on behalf of personal liberty were generally made in vain to noble Lords opposite. If, in the present condition of the House, this proposal were carried, he hoped it would either be rejected in the other House, or that the state of Public Business there would be such as to prevent the Bill from becoming law.

LORD ABERDARE

said, that the same power proposed to be given by the clause, and to which the noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Salisbury) objected, was already exercised by the police with great advantage, for some of the largest discoveries of stolen goods had been made by the police acting upon it; but they had done so without legal authority, and, consequently, they were exposed to the risk of an action for illegal possession. With regard to any harshness towards pawn- brokers, it ought to be remembered that the law prevailed in several parts of the country. It prevailed in Scotland, in Dublin, and, he believed, under a private local Act, in Manchester; and no complaint of its operation was made. The power would not be harshly exercised or complained of; and there was, in fact, an understanding between the police and the pawnbrokers as to how it should be used.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

thought that the noble Lord (Lord Aberdare) had given sufficient reasons to show that there was no necessity whatever for this power, for he pointed out what extensive powers the police exercised under the present law.

On Question? Resolved in the Negative.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 4 to 7, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 8 (Refiners).

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

asked why refiners and dealers in scrap metal were subject to peculiar restrictions? On what evidence was this provision thought desirable?

THE LORD CHANCELLOR,

in reply, said, he thought special regulations necessary in this case, considering the frequency with which stolen plate and other valuables were melted down. The clause did not apply to any class of refiners except those who were, in fact, second-hand dealers, and whose business it was to melt down manufactured articles and old scrap metal. It had been inserted at the request of the Home Office.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 9 agreed to.

Clause 10 (Duty of pawnbroker or second-hand dealer to answer inquiries by specially authorized constable).

EARL BEAUCHAMP moved, as an Amendment, in page 5, line 35, to omit the words— And if he does not find in his hooks a description of such article, he shall suffer such constable to examine the entries in his books subsequent to the date at which such article is alleged to have been stolen.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

opposed the Amendment.

Amendment negatived.

On the Motion of The Earl BEAUCHAMP, Amendment made in line 39, by inserting after the word "who," the word "willfully"

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 11 and 12 severally agreed to.

Clause 13 (Prohibition of purchases from or by means of children).

EARL BEAUCHAMP moved, as an Amendment, to omit Sub-section 1, which prohibits taking articles in pawn from any person appearing to be under the age of 14. He submitted that, as the Bill was to facilitate the recovery of stolen goods, this sub-section had little or no application.

Amendment moved, in page 7, line 10, to leave out sub-section 1.—(The Earl Beauchamp.)

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

said, that under the Pawnbrokers' Act of 1862 the age was fixed at 12 years. The age of 14 had been substituted on the authority of several eminent pawnbrokers.

On Question? Resolved in the Negative.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 14 (Hours of business).

EARL BEAUCHAMP moved an Amendment confining the clause to second-hand dealers. He submitted that no restriction as to time should be imposed upon poor persons from getting articles out of pawn.

Amendment moved, in page 7, line 24, leave out ("pawnbroker or.")—(The Earl Beauchamp.)

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

said, that the general practice of the pawnbrokers was in accordance with the hours fixed by the clause. Moreover, restricting the hours of business restricted the opportunities of receiving stolen goods.

On Question? Resolved in the Negative.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 15 (Pawnbrokers' books).

EARL BEAUCHAMP moved to strike out the clause, which required that pawnbrokers' books should contain a record of such distinctive marks as were borne by the articles pawned—on the ground that it would be unworkable.

Moved, "To leave out the Clause."—(The Earl Beauchamp.)

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

said, the clause was of very great importance, for unless the books contained these particulars, they would be wanting in the precise information which it would be most important to have.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

said, he thought sufficient information might be obtained through the medium of the Index Society. The registration of a distinctive mark would not necessarily lead to the detection of theft, for such an alteration might be made in the mark as would baffle inquiry.

On Question? Resolved in the Negative.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 16 to 27, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 28 (Appeal).

On the Motion of The LORD CHANCELLOR, the following Amendment made:—In page 16, line 23 leave out from ("of") to end of clause, and insert— ("Or Circuit Courts of Justifiers, in the manner provided by the Act passed in the twentieth year of the reign of His Majesty King George the Second, chapter forty-three, or by the Summary Prosecution Appeals (Scotland) Act, 1875, or any Act amending the same.")

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 29 to 36, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 37 (General definitions).

On the Motion of The LORD CHANCELLOR, the following Amendment made:—

In page 19, line 34, after ("constabulary") insert as new sub-clause— (g.) In Scotland the expression 'justice of the peace' shall include sheriff and sheriff substitute.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to. House resumed.

The Report of the Amendments to be received on Tuesday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 185.)