Lords Sitting of 15 August 1882

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—India (Home Charges Arrears)* (256); Revenue, Friendly Societies, and National Debt* (257); National Gallery (Loan) * (261); Fishery Board (Scotland) * (264).
Second Reading—Committee negatived—Corrupt Practices (Suspension of Elections) * (251); Passenger Vessels Licences (Scotland) (252); Expiring Laws Continuance* (253); Public Works Loans* (254); Royal Irish Constabulary (255); Prison Charities* (242).
Committee—Allotments* (248).
Committee — Report — Turnpike Roads (South Wales) * (226).
Third Reading—Reserve Forces Acts Consolidation* (224); Militia Acts Consolidation* (225); Artizans' Dwellings* (231); Parcel Post* (249); Merchant Shipping (Mercantile Marine Fund) * (241); Government Annuities and Insurance* (243), and passed.

PARLIAMENT—BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE—THE ADJOURNMENT.

  MINISTERIAL STATEMENT.
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I wish to give Notice that I propose on
  1796
  Friday to move the adjournment of the House until the 24th of October. I do so in consequence of the course to be pursued by the Government in the House of Commons, where the same Motion for adjournment is to be made. In the House of Commons it is not the intention of the Government to bring forward any other Business than that connected with the Procedure of that House. I might have taken another course. I might have, as is often the case, moved next Friday an adjournment until a later day than that on which the House of Commons will meet. But, on the whole, we thought it more respectful to your Lordships to ask you to meet on the same day, and on that day I shall ask your Lordships further to adjourn. With regard to the Business of the House, Her Majesty's Government have no intention of asking your Lordships to transact any. Should any emergency make it desirable that Business should be done, I shall feel bound to give your Lordships proper Notice of the fact. I understand that it has been suggested that I should state whether any Bill which has been rejected by the usual form of a Motion that it be read on that day three months might not be revived through the meeting of the House in October, notwithstanding the rejection. I think that practically this question does not arise, as there are no Bills which can be affected in that way. I have also been asked whether any Bills which have not arrived at a third reading can go on to their subsequent stages in October. A question of Order of that sort will rest with your Lordships; but it is not the intention of the Government to ask your Lordships to go on with any measures or to encourage any legislation in the month of October.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, there still remains the difficulty of any single Member pushing on a measure. His right to do so would, I presume, not be affected by the course proposed by the Government. I have no intention to enter into any discussion of the noble Earl's statement; but should public affairs at that time seem to require any discussion on the part of the Opposition, we are not to be precluded by the statement of the noble Earl from then entering upon a discussion.

PASSENGER VESSELS LICENCES (SCOTLAND) BILL.—(No. 252.)
(The Earl of Rosebery.)
PASSENGER VESSELS LICENCES (SCOTLAND) BILL.—(No. 252.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that it had passed the House of Commons, where there had been no dissentient voice raised against it. It dealt with the question of licences for the sale of intoxicating liquors on board passenger vessels. These licences were now granted by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue, who were not the ordinary licensing authorities. It seemed that scenes of great scandal had occurred on some of the Glasgow Sunday boats owing to the sale of intoxicating liquors on board of them, and the object of this Bill was to give the Commissioners power to prevent such sale on Sundays.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Earl of Rosebery.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly.
  Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.

ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY BILL.—(No. 255.)
(The Lord Privy Seal.)
SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRIVY SEAL),in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, the Bill had come up from the House of Commons. The Bill was in the interest of the officers of the Royal Irish Constabulary, with whom alone it dealt, and its object was to improve the pay and pensions of those individuals. Their allowance, as well as the allowances of the men, had already been dealt with; but for the purpose of increasing their pay and pensions it was necessary that an Act should be passed. The measure also proposed a scheme of compulsory retirement, to be applied to the officers of the Constabulary, which was similar to the scheme in force amongst officers in the Army. The subject had been carefully
1798
inquired into, and this Bill was the result.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Lord Privy Seal.)
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsaid, he did not rise to object to the Bill, but to ask whether the position of the chief medical officers of the Force had been brought under the notice of the Government, and whether they would come under the operation of the Bill?
LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRIVY SEAL)said, the point had been brought to his notice a short time ago; but he was informed that the House of Lords would have no power to include any other officer in the Bill, as that would imply an official character. He had been told that the question had been raised in the House of Commons, and considered by the Irish Government; but they did not see their way to include in the benefits of the Bill any other officers.
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly.
Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.

METROPOLITAN IMPROVEMENTS—HYDE PARK CORNER.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE MARQUESS OF AILESBURYasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether it is seriously intended to carry into effect the alterations proposed by Her Majesty's First Commissioner of Works at Hyde Park Corner; and, if so, when the said alterations may be expected to be commenced? The noble Marquess said, that in asking these Questions he had no intention whatever of finding fault with the scheme proposed by the First Commissioner of Works—quite the reverse; but what he wished was that the works should be commenced at once, as the nuisance was becoming every day more intolerable, even as early as 10 or 11 a.m., as well as 4 or 5 p.m. His reason, too, for pressing this on Her Majesty's Government was that as long ago as 1874 a Motion was carried and the sum of money required actually voted by the House of Commons on the proposal of the noble Lord at that time at the head of the Office of Works, then a Member of the other House for Chichester, and

  1799
  nothing more was ever done about it. When he (the Marquess of Ailesbury) made further inquiry, he found that the money had been repaid into the Treasury. He trusted that Her Majesty's Government would at once commence the works, as they would certainly take six or eight months to complete, or till Parliament should meet next year.
  THE EARL OF MILLTOWNsaid, that he desired to supplement the Question of the noble Marquess by asking whether, in the event of these proposed improvements being effected, the Government would avail themselves of the opportunity thus afforded to throw open the roadway down Constitution Hill to the public? He asserted that if the contemplated improvements were carried out the exclusion of the public from the roadway in question would be more than ever a grievance. He was satisfied that this proposal would meet with the approval of Her Majesty, who throughout her long and happy Reign had ever considered the convenience of her subjects. Carriages and other vehicles had been allowed to pass in front of Buckingham Palace, and this road would run at the back of the Palace. The public use of it would be a great convenience, and at the same time no nuisance to anybody.
  LORD SUDELEYsaid, that he had to state that immediately the Vote was passed by the other House steps were at once taken to commence carrying out the great improvement at Hyde Park Corner. The first thing that had to be done was to remove the reservoir from its present position to a suitable place in Hyde Park, and tenders had already been invited for carrying this out. The First Commissioner had not yet decided whether the Duke of Wellington's Arch could be moved in one block on rollers, or whether it would be necessary to pull it down and rebuild it; but it was hoped that this matter would be settled in a few days. The Government hoped that cutting off the corner of Green Park would entirely remove the congestion of traffic, which had for so long been a standing nuisance to that part of the Metropolis; and they believed that of the numerous schemes which had been suggested, this formation of a large "place" would be the boldest and happiest solution of a somewhat difficult problem. He could not give the noble Marquess an
  1800
  exact date when the works would be completed; but he could assure him that, the money having been agreed to by Parliament, and the Metropolitan Board of Works and all parties having given their consent, everything would be done to expedite the completing of the improvements as soon as possible. In reply to the noble Lord opposite (the Earl of Milltown), he had to say that it was not proposed at present to open Constitution Hill to the public. The question had not been under consideration.
  THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGEsaid, that he was very glad that what was now proposed was to be carried out; but he was convinced that the block in the traffic at Hyde Park Corner would never be got rid of until a subway had been made from Hamilton Place, under Piccadilly, to Grosvenor Place. He was aware that the construction of such a subway would be a very expensive matter, and that all sorts of difficulties connected with water and gas pipes and sewers would have to be encountered; but, in his opinion, these difficulties ought to be overcome, because the block at Hyde Park Corner was really a disgrace to a great city like this.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES)asked whether it would not be possible to place the statue of the Duke of Wellington on a pedestal opposite to Apsley House?
  LORD SUDELEYsaid, that the First Commissioner had received a great many representations respecting what should be done with the statue of the Duke of Wellington. Among many conflicting opinions, he had not yet decided what would be best to be done; but if the Arch were obliged to be pulled down, then he would take care that experiments were made to see how the Duke would look on a pedestal in the middle of the proposed "place" or similar position. If the Arch were not pulled down, but were rolled into its new position without having to take down the statue, then it was probable it would be better to leave it alone. The matter was, however, still under consideration.

TRIPOLI—SAFETY OF BRITISH SUBJECTS.

  MOTION FOR PAPERS.
  EARL DE LA WARR,in rising to call the attention of Her Majesty's Govern-

  1801
  ment to the position of British, subjects in Tripoli, and to ask whether any provision had been made to protect them in case of emergency, said, that while matters of the gravest importance in Egypt were engaging the attention of Her Majesty's Government, he should be very unwilling to bring under public notice any question which would embarrass them in the course which they had thought it right to adopt. At the same time, it was impossible to pass over in silence events which were of frequent occurrence, and which arose, it could not be doubted, from an increasing irritation among the Mussulman population of North Africa and elsewhere. There was evidence—abundant evidence—that the unhappy state of affairs in Egypt was not confined to that country only; it had shown itself in Syria, and in other Asiatic Mussulman States; it had shown itself in Tripoli; and wherever there was a Christian and Mussulman population together, if there had not been an open outbreak, there was a dormant feeling of irritation which might at any moment result in acts of violence. As regarded Tripoli, to which he desired to ask the attention of Her Majesty's Government, he had been assured upon reliable authority that the state of feeling there at the present moment was one which caused great anxiety and alarm. British subjects who had been able to do so had quitted the country, and many of the poorer class of the Maltese were being maintained in the Island of Serba, near the coast of Tripoli, at the expense, he believed, of the Maltese Government. Now, he did not think they need go far to discover the cause of that unhappy state of affairs. He was aware it was sometimes unwelcome to refer to the past; but the present in political matters was most often the result of the past, and he thought that anyone who had of late watched the progress of events in North Africa could not fail to see that what began in Tunis was the fons et origo malorum. It could only be described as an act of unprovoked aggression and violence against a peaceful country, which, unhappily, instead of being disallowed, was tacitly sanctioned, if not encouraged, by Her Majesty's Government, till a flame was kindled among the Mussulman population of North Africa, which had ended in a conflagration in Egypt. As regarded
  1802
  the future, Parliament was shortly to be adjourned, and the country would be left for some time with the dark and ominous intimation recently given by the Prime Minister in "another place"—that the object of this war was not to restore the status quo ante in Egypt. He therefore wished to ask Her Majesty's Government whether any provision had been made to afford protection to British subjects in Tripoli? He begged also to move for Papers on the subject.
  Moved, "That Papers relating to the protection of British subjects in Tripoli be presented to the House."—(The Marl De La Warr.)
  EARL GRANVILLE: In answer to the Question of the noble Lord, I have to say that the report arrived in this country during the last month, stating that there had been a considerable panic at Tripoli and at Benghadi, and that the European residents were fleeing to Malta. Her Majesty's Government sent a vessel of war to Benghadi, where the panic was said to exist. At the same time, they also sent instructions to Lord Dufferin to communicate with the Porte and with his Colleagues on the subject. They likewise communicated with the Governments of France, Austria, and Italy, and it appeared to those Powers that the reports which they had received did not lead to any alarm for the safety of the Europeans in Tripoli. At the same time, France and Austria agreed with us in pressing the Porte to take all necessary precautions; and the Porte promised to do so. At Tripoli the Vali issued a Circular to the Consuls, taking upon himself the responsibility for the security of the peace of the district. This has had a good effect in calming the apprehensions of the European residents; and there is no reason to believe that British subjects in Tripoli are in any danger at the present moment. The Papers on the subject contain nothing beyond what I have just stated to your Lordships.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Does the noble Lord withdraw the Motion?
  EARL DE LA WARR: Does the noble Earl object to produce the Papers?
  EARL GRANVILLE: No.
  Motion agreed to.

AFRICA (SOUTH)—CETEWAYO, EX-KING OF ZULULAND—PROBABLE RESTORATION.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF MILLTOWNrose to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether Her Majesty's Government have yet arrived at any determination as to whether they will permit Cetewayo to return to Zululand or not, or as to what is to be his future fate; and, if so, whether he will communicate their intentions on the subject to the House? When a question as to Cetewayo's visit to England was mooted in July last, the Colonial Secretary had seemed undecided as to what was to be done with the ex-King. Cetewayo's visit had become a fait accompli, and the deposed Monarch had had an interview with the Prime Minister and the Colonial Secretary, and had had the high honour of an introduction to Her Majesty the Queen at Osborne. In spite of the fact that the noble Earl (the Earl of Kimberley) had said that nothing like an official reception would be given to Cetewayo, people both at home and in South Africa would look upon this as something like an official reception; and it was only right that the Government should give some explanation on that matter. He had no hostility to the ex-King. On the contrary, it was impossible not to regard him with a certain amount of sympathy and compassion. On the other hand, the Government, by their conduct towards him, were placed between the horns of a disagreeable dilemma. If they prevented his return to Zululand, they must dash to the ground the hopes they had excited in his mind. On the other hand, if they decided to restore him, they would fly in the face of almost everyone whose personal knowledge qualified him to give an opinion on the matter, and would be pleasing only Bishop Colenso, Lady Florence Dixie, and the ex-King himself. Should another Zulu war be the result of the restoration of the ex-King, the responsibility which would rest on Her Majesty's Government would be very serious. The noble Earl concluded by asking his Question.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have determined to consider the possibility of making arrangements for the partial re-
  1804
  storation of Cetewayo to Zululand, with proper safeguards and conditions. Some portion of the country, to be hereafter defined, will be reserved, in order to meet obligations to those of the appointed Chiefs and people who may not be willing to return under Cetewayo's rule. A British Resident will be maintained in Zululand, and Cetewayo will be required to enter into engagements similar to those by which the 13 appointed Chiefs are now bound, which specially include a prohibition to revive in any form the military system formerly prevailing. No portion of Zululand will be annexed to British territory. I have made a communication to this effect to Cetewayo to-day.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, it is impossible to hear the announcement just made by the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies without feeling that Her Majesty's Government have taken upon themselves a considerable responsibility—a responsibility not only towards the Colonists of Natal, whose lives and property may be endangered by the resolution to which they have come, but also a responsibility with respect to the general effect which their announcement will have on the estimation in which the policy, or continuity of policy, of Great Britain is held. This is another step in the process of reversal. It gives confirmation to the opinion of those who believe that England has no settled Foreign or Colonial policy, but that her policy veers about with the variation of political opinion at the hustings. And this, in an Empire where so much depends not on absolute force, but on the belief that is entertained in the stability of English resolutions and in the permanence of English policy and power, is a very grave decision to arrive at. As to the details of this matter, it is impossible, of course, to criticize them until we see them in more fulness than the noble Lord has been able to give them in his present explanation. But I cannot help observing that the prohibition to revive the military system will be a very idle threat unless Her Majesty's Government are prepared to maintain an amount of military strength in Zululand entirely inconsistent with their more recent policy towards the Colonies. With respect to the individual himself, it is, perhaps, impossible to say all that the

  1805
  documents in our possession would suggest to one to say; but the fact is that the man we are about to restore to power over a race whom we have affected to protect, and by the side of a Colony for whose safety we are responsible, has shown himself to be one of the most dangerous and most bloodthirsty of tyrants. Not so long ago the Party which supports Her Majesty's Government, and many of those who now form part of the Government, denounced the policy of this country with respect to Turkey, on the ground of crimes which were imputed to the Turkish Government. Some of those imputations were well-founded, and some were not well-founded; but even if they were well-founded, they would be trivial when compared with the crimes that have characterized the government of Cetewayo in the past. I do not know how far this policy of restitution is to go. The Gaekwar of Baroda is dead, and consequently Her Majesty's Government cannot restore him. Ismail Pasha still remains, and he is an angel of light compared to the candidate whom Her Majesty's Government have replaced on the Throne of Zululand. Of course, this policy must in a great measure be judged by its results. It is an undertaking little consistent, I think, with prudence, with the interests of the Colonies, with the prospective peace of Africa, and, above all, it will tend to create among all the populations whose destinies are affected by the decisions of the British Government a belief that in the policy of that Government there is no stability.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: My Lords, the noble Marquess can hardly expect me to enter on the present occasion into a detailed defence of the policy which Her Majesty's Government have thought it best to pursue towards Zululand; but there are one or two of the observations of the noble Marquess which I ought not to pass by without notice. In the first place, the noble Marquess says that this is a reversal of policy. No doubt it is; and though, my Lords, I quite agree that it is a misfortune when policies have to be reversed, it is a much greater misfortune to maintain obstinately a policy which we believe to be wrong. I need not repeat what I have often said before, that I believe the entire policy which dictated
  1806
  the late Zulu War was wrong from beginning to end. Further, I am of opinion that it has been abundantly shown, and those who have studied the despatches already presented must, I think, come to the conclusion that, whatever may be their opinion of the best policy to be pursued with regard to Zululand, the settlement which was made after the dethronement of Cetewayo has failed. Therefore, I think almost everyone—I am sure everyone in South Africa who is acquainted with the subject—is distinctly of opinion that a fresh policy might be adopted with advantage. Of course, I am perfectly free to admit that the question as to whether we have taken a right decision or not is a question quite fit to be canvassed, and one on which, no doubt, people will hold different opinions. At the same time, I have watched with very great care and attention all the indications of opinion in South Africa, and I am absolutely convinced that a considerable change of opinion has come about on this subject. As to the argument that we ought not to put Cetewayo over any part of this territory because he is a bloodthirsty tyrant beyond all experience, I simply deny the fact. I am quite aware that a number of stories were collected together for the purpose of justifying what I believe to have been a most unjust aggression on Cetewayo. It was erroneously thought that an attack was made on the British Colony by Cetewayo, whereas, in point of fact, we attacked him. I am aware that Cetewayo, in common, I believe, with every Chief in South Africa, committed many of what we justly call cruelties; but it is well to consider precisely what those cruelties were. In the first place, a considerable proportion of them took the form of what is called "smelling out witches." My Lords, I am not a believer in witchcraft, still less am I one who approves of the punishment of supposed witchcraft; but I cannot forget that it is not so very long ago that persons in Europe and this country—persons under far more enlightened Rulers than Cetewayo—imagined that there were witches, and punished them in a most cruel and barbarous manner. Although Cetewayo was, therefore, far behind his age, however we may disapprove his cruelties in this direction, it must be remembered that he was acting according to the customs which prevailed

  1807
  in the country. I admit that there is something behind of very much more importance. Cetewayo, no doubt, inflicted severe and sometimes wanton punishments on his people in order to maintain his sovereignty. But, against these facts, you must put this on the other side. If he was so cruel a Ruler, how was it that his people adhered to him as they did? Sir Bartle Frere thought his people would desert him; but, so far from that being the case, with the exception of one of his Chiefs, who came over to our side for special reasons of personal ambition, so completely were his people attached to him that, after he was defeated by our troops, and was a solitary fugitive through the country, not one of his people would betray him to our agents. Therefore, I come to the conclusion that he was not a specially bloodthirsty tyrant, as compared with men who have occupied similar positions. I agree with the noble Marquess that the step we have determined to take must be judged by the results. The whole question of dealing with South Africa is one of extreme difficulty. We have waited with great patience to allow an opportunity thoroughly to consider the position of affairs in that country, and we have deliberately come to the conclusion that the time has arrived when it is no longer safe, looking to the condition of Zululand and to the future, not to arrive at some decision for a new settlement, and the main provisions of that settlement I have announced tonight to your Lordships.
  6.20 P.M. House adjourned during pleasure.
  12.25 A.M. House resumed by the Lord MONSON.

  NATIONAL GALLERY (LOAN) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill for enabling the Trustees and Director of the National Gallery to lend works of art to other public galleries in the United Kingdom—Was presented by The Earl GRANVILLE; read 1a. (No. 261.)
  House adjourned a half past Twelve o'clock A.M., till half past Twelve o'clock.