Lords Sitting of 8 August 1882

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Pensions Commutation* (230); Artizans' Dwellings* (231).
Second Reading—Educational Endowments (Scotland) (220) Poor Law Amendment* (221).
Committee—Electric Lighting (212–229).
Report—Wellesley Bridge (Limerick) * (207–228).
Third Reading—Turnpike Acts Continuance* (198); Customs and Inland Revenue*, and passed.

PRIVATE BILLS.
Ordered, That Standing Order No. 144. be suspended for the remainder of the Session.
ELECTRIC LIGHTING BILL.—(No. 212.)
(The Lord Sudeley.)
ELECTRIC LIGHTING BILL.—(No. 212.)

  COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
  LORD SUDELEYsaid, before this Bill went into Committee it would be to the convenience of their Lordships if he stated at once that since the second reading of the Bill the Board of Trade had very carefully considered again the objections raised by the Electric Companies on Clause 3 and Clause 27. The Board of Trade had always felt it was difficult to say exactly what was the precise number of years which should be given to a licence, and after what exact number of years the local authorities should have power to purchase. The object had been to fix the shortest time for the existence of the monopoly that would be consistent with sufficient inducement for the investment of the necessary capital. After hearing the difficulties which the Electric Companies felt, mainly on the ground that the installations would be on a far larger scale than was at first thought practicable, the Board of Trade had thought that, in the interests of the general public, the term of licence should be extended to seven years, and the term of purchase to 21 years. The exact Amendments would be as proposed by the noble Earl (the Earl of Crawford). It was understood that this would meet all the objections of the Electric Light Companies; and it was far better, in the opinion of the Board of Trade, that the question should be settled permanently than be allowed to be raised at some future time. The Amendment about to be moved by the noble and learned Lord (Lord Bramwell) was totally inconsistent with this arrangement, and altered the terms of purchase, and could not be agreed to.
  House in Committee (according to order).
  Clause 1 (Short title) agreed to.
  Clause 2 (Application of Act).
  On the Motion of Lord SUDELEY, Amendment made, in page 1, line 8, after ("by") by inserting ("this Act or").
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 3 (Granting of licenses authorising the supply of electricity).
  On the Motion of The Earl of CRAWFORD, Amendment made, in page 1, line 27, by leaving out ("five") and inserting ("seven").
  On the Motion of Lord SUDELEY, Amendments made, in page 1 line 28, after ("but may, at") by inserting ("or after"), and leaving out (,"at any") and inserting ("from time to"); page 2, line 1, after ("time") insert ("for a like period").
  On the Motion of The Earl of CRAWFORD, Amendment made, in page 2, line 6, by leaving out ("vestry").
  On the Motion of Lord SUDELEY, Amendment made, in line 29, after ("given") insert as a new sub-section—
  "A license may, subject to the provisions of this Act, he granted to a local authority authorising them to supply electricity within any area although the same or some part thereof may not he included within their own district."
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 4 (Granting of provisional orders authorising the supply of electricity).
  On the Motion of Lord SUDELEY, Amendment made, in page 3, line 17, after ("provisions") by inserting as a new sub-section—
  "No provisional order shall authorise the supply of electricity by any undertakers within the district of any local authority (not being themselves the undertakers), unless notice that such provisional order has been or is intended to be applied for has been given to such local authority by the applicants in such manner as the Board of Trade may direct or approve on or before the first day of July in the year in which such application is made; provided that in the case of any application made during the present year such notice shall be deemed to have been given in due time if the same is given within one month after the passing of this Act."
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clauses 5 and 6 agreed to.
  Clause 7 (Expenses of local authority).
  On the Motion of Lord SUDELEY, Amendments made, in page 5, line 12, by leaving out ("in respect of any undertaking"); in line 14, by leaving out ("obtaining the") and inserting—

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  ("Connection with the obtaining by them, or any opposition to the obtaining by any other local authority, company, or person, of any");
  and in line 15, by leaving out ("authorising the undertaking") and inserting ("under this Act").
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clauses 8 and 9 agreed to.
  Clause 10 (General powers of undertakers under license or provisional order).
  On the Motion of Lord SUDELEY, Amendment made, in page 6, line 24, after ("Act") by inserting ("and of any rules made by the Board of Trade in pursuance of this Act ").
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 11 (Power for local authority to contract in certain cases and restrictions on assignments of powers, &c. of undertakers).
  On the Motion of The Earl of CRAWFORD, Amendment made, in page 6, line 41, after ("special Act") by inserting ("without the consent of the Board of Trade").
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clauses 12 to 14, inclusive, agreed to.
  Clause 15 (Power to undertakers to alter position of pipes and wires).
  On the Motion of Lord SUDELEY, Amendments made, in page 8, line 36, after ("local") by inserting ("or other public"); and in line 40, after ("local") by inserting ("or other public").
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 16 (Clause for protection of canals).
  On the Motion of Lord SUDELEY, Amendment made, in page 9, line 19, by leaving out ("the Board of Trade") and inserting ("arbitration").
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 17 agreed to.
  Clause 18 (Undertakers not to prescribe special form of lamp or burner).
  On the Motion of Lord SUDELEY, Amendments made, in page 9, line 32, after ("no") by inserting ("local authority"); in line 36, after ("other") by inserting ("local authority, company, or"); and in line 37, after ("and any")
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  by inserting ("local authority, company, or").
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 19 agreed to.
  Clause 20 (Charges for electricity).
  On the Motion of Lord SUDELEY, Amendment made, in page 10, line 9, after ("to any") insert ("local authority").
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 21 (Recovery of charges, &c).
  On the Motion of Lord SUDELEY, Amendments made, in page 10, line 14, after ("if any") by inserting ("local authority"); in line 16, after ("such") by inserting ("local authority"); and in line 22, after ("such") by inserting ("local authority").
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clauses 22 and 23 agreed to.
  Clause 24 (Power to enter lands or premises for ascertaining quantities of electricity consumed, or to remove fittings, &c).
  On the Motion of Lord SUDELEY, Amendment made, in page 10, line 39, after ("lines") by inserting ("accumulators").
  On the Motion of The Earl of CRAWFORD, Amendment made, in page 10, line 39, after ("lines") by inserting ("meters").
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 25 (Electric lines, &c. not to be subject to distress in certain cases).
  On the Motion of Lord SUDELEY, Amendments made, in page 11, line 7, by leaving out ("meters") and inserting ("accumulators"), and after ("fittings") by inserting ("works"); and inline 11, by leaving out ("meters") and inserting ("accumulators"), and after ("fittings") by inserting ("works").
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 26 (Provision for protection of the Postmaster General).
  On the Motion of Lord SUDELEY, Amendment made, in page 11, line 42, by leaving out ("the Board of Trade") and inserting ("arbitration").
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 27 (Purchase of undertaking by local authority).
  On the Motion of Lord SUDELEY, Amendment made, in page 12, line 17, after ("Act") by inserting ("or such provisional order or special Act as aforesaid").
  On the Motion of The Earl of CRAWFORD, Amendment made, in page 12, line 82, by leaving out ("fifteen years") and inserting—
  ("Twenty-one years or such shorter period as is specified in that behalf in the application for the Provisional Order or in the special Act");
  and in line 34, by leaving out ("five years") and inserting—
  ("Seven years or such shorter period as is specified in that behalf in the application for the Provisional Order or in the Special Act").
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clauses 28 to 31, inclusive, agreed to.
  Clause 32 (Interpretation).
  On the Motion of Lord SUDELEY, Amendment made, in page 14, line 38, by leaving out ("has the same meaning as in the Gasworks Clauses Act, 1847") and inserting—
  ("Includes any square, court, or alley, highway, lane, road, thoroughfare, or public passage, or place, within the area in which the undertakers are authorised to supply electricity by this Act or any license, order, or special Act")
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clauses 33 to 35, inclusive, agreed to.
  Clause 36 (Application of Act to Scotland).
  On the Motion of Lord SUDELEY, Amendment made, in page 15, line 24, after ("theft") by inserting—"The expression 'felony' means a high crime and offence;" in page 15, line 28, by leaving out ("vestry"); and in line 30, after ("applied") by inserting—
  "The expression 'local authority' means as regards streets and roads the authority having the control of the streets and roads."
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  On the Motion of Lord SUDELEY, Amendment made in Schedule (Scotland), page 20, second column, insert ("The county road board"); Schedule (Ireland), page 20, last column, leave out the whole entry in order to insert—
  ("That prescribed by section two hundred and. forty-eight of the Public Health (Ireland) Act, 1878."
  The Report of the Amendments to be received on Thursday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 229.)

EDUCATIONAL ENDOWMENTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.—(No. 220.)
(The Lord Privy Seal.)
SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRIVY SEAL): My Lords, it has become my duty, as representing, during the absence of the President of the Council, the Education Department in this House, to ask your Lordships to give a second reading to a Bill, which is one of the greatest importance to education in Scotland. Although it is a Bill of such importance, I feel that it would be unreasonable on my part if I were to detain the House for any length of time upon the present occasion, and for this reason—that the Bill in substance is familiar to your Lordships, and to all who take an interest in the subject of Scotch education. There is no question that I know of which is more thoroughly ripe for legislation than this question of secondary Scotch education, it having passed through the ordeal of many inquiries, and of experimental and permissive legislation. I shall, therefore, not detain your Lordships by going far into its past history. The foundation of the present Bill is, in fact, to be found in the declaration made by the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon), then President of the Council, when he introduced a permissive Bill on this subject into this House, and when he said, in the clearest and most straightforward words, that if the permissive principle should fail of its purpose, it would be the duty of the then Government to bring in a Bill of a compulsory nature; and I have no doubt, if the noble Duke had remained in Office, he would have brought in very much the same Bill which was introduced by my noble Friend Lord Spencer two years ago. That Bill was introduced in 1880, and was in substance the same as that which is now before your Lordships. It passed this House, but it did not succeed in passing the other House in that short Session of the year 1880. The same Bill was introduced in the other House in the year 1881; but the Session of last year was occupied with other matters, and the Bill got no further; and in this year (1882) there would

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have been no cause for surprise if its fate had been the same. But I am happy to say that, by the exertions and energy of the Vice President of the Council (Mr. Mundella), and by the practical and patriotic spirit of the Scotch Members on both sides, who have in the main, and upon the important points of the Bill, been practically unanimous—in that way, by great good fortune, the Bill has survived the perils of that region, and has come up to your Lordships' House. The measure is framed upon the lines of the Endowed Schools Act of England, which is so familiar to your Lordships. It proposes to reorganize and reform a number of educational endowments in Scotland, so as to make them, we hope, far more advantageous to the people of that country than at present, by means of the same kind of machinery which is used, and has been for some years used in this country under the Endowed Schools Act, and the Charity Commission. The Executive Commission, which will be created under this Bill, has very large powers conferred upon it—powers necessary to the purpose in view, but powers limited very carefully by the conditions of the Bill, and by provisions as to inquiries, as to publicity, and as to appeal in the last resort to Parliament itself. The main object which the Bill and the Commission have in view is to make these endowments, where it can be legitimately done, far more valuable than they are at present for the promotion of education in Scotland, higher than that given in the ordinary public schools. When I talk of higher education, I am far from meaning education specially adapted or intended for the higher classes of society; but an education of a higher class which would be open and available for the poor scholars in the ordinary schools of Scotland. My Lords, I am not surprised at the spirit of unanimity, and the desire among the people of Scotland, that these endowments should be thus used, because we all know the remarkable way in which, even under present circumstances in Scotland, with a great dearth of the means of education higher than that obtained in the public schools, a number of poor Scotch boys do make their way in spite of all difficulties from the public schools to the Universities. The object of the Bill is to provide means and appli-
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ances by which the admirable spirit among the youth of Scotland shall find its way to the higher education of the country. We propose, by the application in many cases of these endowments, to provide the means or ladder by which those intelligent and ambitious young men can attain to the education which they desire. That was also the object, as described at the time by the President of the Council, the main object of the Bill of 1880—the Bill which obtained your Lordships' concurrence and went down to the other House. I do not know that it is necessary for me to do more than state in a few words the main respects in which this Bill differs from the Bill of 1880, which was passed by your Lordships. I find that the main points of difference are three. There are some minor ones with which I will not trouble the House on this occasion. In the first place, there is a change in the proposed constitution of the Governing Bodies of the endowments. With respect to the amount of popular election which is to be found in these bodies, the Bill of 1880 was general in its terms, although its object was the same; but in the present Bill it is provided definitely that where the Governing Body of an endowment at present contains a majority of elected members, or rather of members drawn from Town Councils and from other bodies which are elected, in the future, under the schemes framed under the provisions of this Bill, such Governing Bodies shall contain not less than two-thirds of such members. Where, again, the number of such members at present is less than half the number, in future it shall not be less than two-thirds, and where at present there are no members of that class at all upon the Governing Body, it is provided that there be a number elected, and not less than one-third, on the Governing Bodies to be created under the schemes. Again, there is a change, which provides more carefully than was provided in the Bill of 1880 for the non-alienation from the objects of primary education of funds which had been specially, under the founder's will, applied to primary education; and in such cases it will only be the surplus of such endowments, after adequately providing for the founder's intentions, that can be available for education of a higher kind. The third change is, perhaps, the most important

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one, and it has been made since this Bill was introduced into the other House. It is this—Whereas the Bill, when it was introduced, limited the powers of the Commissioners as to dealing with endowments within 40 years from the present time, which, it seems, is the period of prescription in Scotland, the Bill as it has reached this House provides that the Commissioners may deal with any endowments earlier than the year 1872—the year of the passing of the Scotch Primary Education Act. My Lords, that change has been the work of the Scotch Members themselves. The other provisions were the proposal of the Government. The change to which I now refer was made on the proposal of a very eminent Scotch Member, a man of weight and authority on these subjects—a Member for two Scotch Universities, and not a supporter of the present Government—and that view, I believe, is supported unanimously by the Scotch Members of the other House. The feeling all over Scotland is that, if the original limitation were retained in the Bill, a large number of valuable endowments, very much requiring to be dealt with by this Commission, would be excluded from its action. It will depend on the Commission itself how far these endowments shall be dealt with or altered, but the Government believe, with the Scotch Members, who, they think, are entirely right in this matter, that the question of dealing with these endowments will be best left to the Commissioners, under and subject to the conditions of the Bill. It would be a misfortune if the endowments in question, which would otherwise be excluded from their discretion, were to be left dormant and untouched for many years to come, until the period of 40 years had been reached. These, I think, are the three main points in which this Bill differs from that which received your Lordships' assent in the year 1880, and I do not know that it is necessary for me to add anything to the statement that I have already made. I know that you sympathize with the object of this measure. I believe that you may have confidence in the means which it proposes to take to attain that object, in its machinery, in its provisions, and in the Commission which is about to be appointed by the Crown; and I can only say, in conclusion, that I trust, and am
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confident, that the operation of this Bill will set free and make available in Scotland most important means of education, greatly desired by that country, and which, I doubt not, will have the effect of putting her in even a higher position than that which she now holds in these matters among the nations of the world.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Privy Seal.)
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON: My Lords, I can assure the Lord Privy Seal (Lord Carlingford) that the remarks which I shall offer will be conceived in no hostile spirit towards the Bill. The Bill, as the noble Lord has truly said, is drawn very much upon the lines of the Bill which I had the honour of introducing some years ago on behalf of Her Majesty's then Government. I will make one or two observations upon matters which I find are in the Bill, and also on matters which are not in the Bill. In the first place, I think that in the Preamble of the Endowed Schools Act, 1869, for England, there was a special reference to the Report of the Royal Commission, and it stated that the object of the proposed legislation was to give effect to the evidence taken before that Commission; and, if I mistake not, something of the same kind was in this Bill when it was introduced in the House of Commons; but by some means or other that has fallen through, and I do not find any reference in this Bill to the Report of the Commission of those who had to deal with the subject, and I think that reference might have been made in the Preamble of the Bill to that Commission when they had made various suggestions which are included in this Bill. I do not wish to say anything about the noble Lord (Lord Balfour of Burleigh), who is to be the future Chairman of the Commission. I believe that no man would discharge the duties with more credit to himself, and with greater benefit to the country, than my noble Friend. I believe that is the view entertained by all parties; but I do not find any representative of natural science or technical instruction. This Commission, which is to be an unpaid one, is expected to deal with a larger amount of property in five years than the three Commissioners in England have been able to deal with in 13 years, and that is a paid Commission.

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I should like to know if an unpaid Commission in reference to Scotland is likely to deal satisfactorily in a shorter time with a larger amount than the English Commissioners received during the 13 years that they have been occupied with the task. Then my noble Friend alluded to an alteration in the constitution of the Governing Bodies, and I should like very much to have an explanation of why the municipal element is so introduced into all those trusts. There is a Return made by the House of Commons in 1881, which states that the funds to be dealt with are probably £200,000 or £250,000. Of this sum about £88,000 only have any municipal connection, and of this £88,000 about £50,000 a-year are under the municipal control, one-half of the members, or upwards, of the Governing Body belonging to the Municipality. That leaves the other £35,000, in regard to which the municipal authorities are in a minority; therefore, by the proposal in the Bill in Clause 6, in dealing with £50,000 a-year, the municipal authorities will have two-thirds of the members, and when they have less representation at present than one-half, it is to be increased to one-half, and in cases where they have none at all the representation is to include one-third of the Municipal Bodies. It does seem to me that this is an extraordinary provision, and I cannot quite understand, from the information I have endeavoured to gather, why it was thought necessary to infuse so much of the municipal element into the government of these trusts. There is another point in the measure upon which I look with some doubt. The noble Lord, no doubt, was perfectly correct in stating that it was with the general acquiescence of the Members of the other House on both sides that the period was reduced to 10 years within which trusts would come under the Bill, taking the date from the passing of the Education Act in 1872. I think that is bringing it down to a very recent date, and I am astonished to find that it met with such general concurrence. But if the date is to be taken down to 1872, the Bill will require to be altered in Committee, because, as it now stands, it may well happen that a person who, during his life, had devoted a sum of money for the benefit of the Established Church of Scotland, might see the Commission
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take action under the powers conferred by this Bill, and transfer all the property which he had given in his lifetime from the wants of the Established Church to the wants of another Denominational Body. That does seem to me to be carrying the thing to an extent which I think my noble Friend opposite will scarcely justify. By Clause 8, it is provided that this Act shall not apply to any educational endowment by present gift that applies to a man's lifetime; but the clause goes on to provide that it should not apply unless the Governing Body or Senatus Academicus should give in writing their consent that such endowment should be dealt with under the Act. I wish to know why the donor also shall not be allowed to give his consent?—and I hope the noble Lord will see that some words ought to be put in with that object. There is only one other matter to which I wish to draw the noble Lord's attention, and that is to ask the Government, or whoever is responsible for the measure, why the Society in Scotland for the Propagation of Christian Knowledge was brought out in such a prominent manner before the House. It seems to me to have been quite unnecessary, and it appears as if this society had done something for which it ought to be rebuked. Moreover, as I have said, it is perfectly unnecessary, because I think the object which the Government has in this measure is attained under the 1st clause, which naturally includes that society. I have nothing more to say upon the Bill. Amendments may be necessary in Committee in the direction in which I have invited the noble Lord's attention. I agree with the noble Lord that the measure will be a great boon to Scotland if it were the means of bringing more effectively within the reach of all classes in Scotland a better secondary education than that which they are now able to obtain.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: My Lords, I am glad to hear from the general tone of the remarks of the noble Duke that there is no probability of any opposition being offered to this measure. I may say that in my humble judgment it is a most valuable Bill, and likely to be of the utmost advantage to Scotland. It is now some years since the Royal Commission reported, and all of us in Scotland have been annually expecting

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that some measure dealing with this subject would be passed; and I think it is a matter of good omen that on an occasion of this kind Scotch Members of Parliament, to whatever side of politics they belong, are found united together in order to promote the cause of education as much as they can without considering in what groove a particular measure or Amendment may proceed. I would take this opportunity of saying that I believe the appointment of the noble Lord opposite (Lord Balfour of Burleigh) as Chairman of the Commission will give universal satisfaction in Scotland. The noble Lord was a most useful Member of the former Commission, and did extremely good work in it; and I feel sure that, Scotchmen generally will have every confidence in his desire to promote the good of education, and to consider this point alone—namely, how education can be best promoted. A question was asked by the noble Duke which I should like also to ask; and it is, how is it that such great preponderance is given to the municipal element in the future composition of these Governing Bodies? My Lords, it does appear to me to be a very strange thing that in the composition of these Governing Bodies it is provided, under any circumstances, that we are to have a considerable representation of the municipal element. I do not want to detract from the merits of these Bodies; but at the same time, as I say, I do think it a strange thing that it should be provided that in all cases we are never to have less than one-third of the Body persons chosen from the Municipal Bodies. But when, with the noble Duke, I ask the question to which I have referred, I am afraid I can also at the same time supply the answer, and that is that the Municipal Bodies have been the most active opponents of all legislation of this kind, and, as often happens in such cases, it has been found necessary to make a compromise with them, and to give them not only representation upon the Bodies of which hitherto they have formed an important part, but to give them representation where we have never known them to have it before. That may be a benefit or not; but if the noble Duke (the Duke of Richmond) moves to strike it out of the Bill he will find me voting with him. At all events, I hope the Municipal Bodies will remember that the Govern-
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ment have been most careful of their privileges, and that, so far from this Bill attempting to take away from them anything to which they are entitled, it has gone rather in the opposite direction, and given to them that which, in the opinion of a certain number of Members of Parliament, certainly of the noble Duke and myself, is rather too important a part in the government of these institutions. There is one other point to which I should like to refer before I sit down. I said that this Bill had been most careful and conservative in guarding all vested interests. It has been most careful in providing that those funds which have been hitherto applied to the education of the poor shall be most jealously preserved for the purposes of that education and that education solely. In that I heartily concur. I think it is desirable that these funds should be retained and applied solely to the purpose for which they were originally left; but I do not observe in the Bill any means by which the poor who are to benefit from these funds are to be selected. In Clause 13 it is provided that no funds now applied in terms of the founders' directions to free elementary education shall be diverted to any other purpose. That is a very good proposal; but will the noble Lord tell me what is the manner in which these poor children are to be selected? Hitherto, when education has been given away I am not aware that the means of selection have been founded on any particular principle, or, at all events, not on any particular principle that we could advocate for general adoption. But it is quite certain that however large a fund is reserved for the education of the poor, many more of the poor will wish to be educated than there will be funds to provide education for. Therefore, supposing that that be the case, I think some general direction ought to be given to the Commissioners as to the manner in which these poor children are to be selected. Suppose there are funds enough to educate 500, and 1,000 apply, I should like to know by what machinery you will select the 500 who are to have the benefit of the Act? If you were to follow the precedent of the English Endowment Acts you would find an example which would be a very convenient one in such cases. It is usual to provide an examination in the common schools

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where the necessary subjects are taught, so that a selection might be made to which no exception could be taken on the ground of favouritism or otherwise. I throw out this as a suggestion to the noble Lord for his consideration. I have no further remarks to make except that I hail with great satisfaction the appearance of this Bill.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: My Lords, I have nothing to say against the principle of this Bill; but it seems to me that it interferes very considerably with ancient endowments, and it will be in the power of the Commissioners, so far as I can read the Bill as at present drawn, to do what they like with the educational endowments in Scotland, and to take away from the endowed schools whatever they think is a convenient sum for other educational purposes. My observations on this point especially refer to the George Heriot Schools of Edinburgh, the annual income from which amounts to several thousand pounds. Unfortunately for that endowment, it is possible for the Commissioners to say—"What a capital thing this rich endowment is, because we can take part of their money and divert and apply it for the endowment of other schools." The endowment known as Heriot's Hospital is administered not only under the will of George Heriot, but under the provisions of an Act of Parliament, which is entirely ignored by this Bill, and which the Commissioners may set aside if they please. At the time the Act of Parliament was passed it was stated that the income of the hospital was so increased that, in order to carry out the full intention of the founder, the powers of the Governors should be extended. Accordingly, an Act was passed in 1836 to enable the Governors to establish free schools for the poor children of burgesses of the City of Edinburgh. Under that Act the Governors of Heriot's Trusts have endowed 11 schools for children of a certain age, and five schools for infants, so that now 5,000 or 6,000 children in Edinburgh receive free education in this way. I know that now-a-days it is assumed that no child should receive an education without paying for it; but in the schools I have mentioned, parents who, although in great poverty, feel it a degradation to go before the Parochial Board for their school fees,
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can have their children educated without the loss of self-respect, because, knowing they are entitled to this free education, they accept it. The Governors have also provided that, whenever there is a boy or a girl in these schools that showed any ability of a promising nature, those children are selected for a higher class education and sent to a school established by the Governors. Also, this endowment apprentices the children to different trades, each child receiving a certain sum of money every year. When the term of apprenticeship expires a further small sum is given. Children are also assisted by bursaries to go to the University, so that all those really worthy of it have the advantages of a higher education. It is now too late to-day for me to present Petitions; but I have in my possession a Petition from the Lord Provost, Magistrates, and Town Council of Glasgow, praying that the Bill may pass with as few Amendments as possible. I have also other two Petitions—one from the Trustees and Governors of Heriot's Hospital, and the other from the Lord Provost, Magistrates, and Council of Edinburgh, praying that certain Amendments, not against the Bill, may be inserted, securing to the citizens of Edinburgh that no advantage they at present possess under the will of George Heriot would be withdrawn. They do not ask the Bill to be rejected, but only that a saving clause should be inserted, respecting an institution which has been a great blessing to a large number of the children in Edinburgh. I therefore give Notice that I will move Amendments which certainly, as far as I can see, will not affect the principle of the Bill, but only the details, so as to secure the advantages of the Heriot Endowment to the citizens of Edinburgh.
LORD BALFOUR: My Lords, I am not about to make a second reading speech in favour of the Bill. So far as that is concerned, I feel certain it will be sufficient to say I believe the need for the Bill is very urgent, and that the feeling of satisfaction with which it will be hailed in Scotland will be almost universal. There were, however, one or two points adverted to which I should like to notice. First, I would like to say a single word as to the great gratification it has been to me to be placed in the position on the Commission which

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has been mentioned to your Lordships. I can assure your Lordships no one feels more acutely than I do the very great responsibility which the position involves, and I can only assure you that my very best attention will be given to it. I believe those who have been appointed my Colleagues on the Commission are gentlemen whose names command almost universal approval in Scotland. The noble Duke (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon) seems to think there is a want of proper representation of technical education upon the Commission. No one is likely to underrate the importance of that subject at the present time, when so much depends upon the skill of artizans and mechanics in the race of competition with foreign countries; but I should like to remind the noble Duke that Lord Shand, who is a Member of the Commission, has been for many years a Director of the Watt Institute in Edinburgh, and he is, therefore, thoroughly acquainted with the needs of Scotland in this particular matter. Besides that we have the Lord Provosts of the two chief cities in Scotland, who may surely be trusted to look after the interests of the commercial population. I would like to say one word with reference to the limit of time which has been introduced into the Bill. I am keenly in favour of bringing down the time in the Bill, so that we may deal with all endowments before 1872. It is some years since I first publicly expressed that opinion, and I believe the disappointment will be very great if any change is now made in the Bill in this respect. It is very difficult for those not well acquainted with what has been going on of late years in Scotland thoroughly to realize the enormous change made in the educational arrangements of the country by the passing of the Education Act of 1872. That Act really forms the logical starting-point of any legislation of the kind which we are about to enter upon. More than that, I believe I am right in saying, although I am not in the secrets of the Government, that not a single objection has been made on the part of any Governing Body which will be affected by the alteration. I have certainly seen no record of any such representation in the public prints, and I believe there is no public body affected by this alteration which in the least degree dreads
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coming under the operation of the Commission. I may also remind your Lordships that the Act of 1878, which was introduced by the last Government, and under which I had the honour of acting, had no limit of time, and that, as a matter of fact, the Commission did deal with endowments of very recent date, some not older than 10 or 12 years. If it should be said that in one case the Act was permissive, I would reply that, if because this Act is a compulsory one, we are, therefore, to have a limited time, that will be really placing the Governing Body in a more important position than the intention and direction of the founder, because in the Act of 1878 Parliament allowed the founder's intention to be altered, subject to the will of the Governing Body, and, therefore, it does not seem to me that there can be any objection taken in principle to allow the operation of the Act to come down to 1872. Allusion has been made to various clauses in the Bill; but I would much prefer—and I think it would be better for me—not to discuss any of these clauses at great length. I am sure the Commission will be prepared to do what work it can with the tools put into its hands. In some cases I should prefer more freedom to the Commissioners, not that I think the Act prescribes anything for them which they would not otherwise have done; but it is of very great importance that a certain latitude should be allowed to the Commissioners, as it is very difficult indeed to lay down a hard-and-fast rule of universal application. What may be suitable in one case may not be suitable in another. Before I sit down I should like to say one word as to what has fallen from the noble Duke (the Duke of Buccleuch). I particularly desire to refrain from mentioning the names of any particular Governing Body. I think, however, the apprehensions of the noble Duke have been unduly excited as to anything which may happen to the particular endowment to which he referred. I cannot see there is any danger of such a raid being made upon these funds as the noble Duke seems to imply. With regard to free education, I believe there is a large class of children to whom a fund for free education is an enormous boon; but such education must be under proper limit and restrictions, which it will not be difficult to define, though I

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will not weary the House by going into them at any length. They will be in each case subject-matter for the consideration of the Commissioners, and it would certainly be unwise to prejudge what will be done in the matter of the details of any particular scheme. If the noble Earl (the Earl of Camperdown) will refer to some schemes which were framed by the Commission which sat under the Act of 1878, he will find that there are certain restrictions and methods of selecting for the beneficiaries of such funds which have given satisfaction, I believe, to the Governing Bodies of these funds, and satisfaction also to the Education Department. My Lords, I have nothing further to say on this occasion; but I certainly trust no obstacle will now be placed between the people of Scotland and the passing of the Bill which is under the consideration of your Lordships.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: My Lords, the general tone this discussion has taken has been so eminently satisfactory, in my opinion, to the Bill and to the Government that it does not appear to me to be necessary to make any detailed series of remarks in concluding the discussion; but one or two points have been touched upon that I do not think it would be respectful on the part of the Government if they refused to accord their attention to those points. The noble Duke the late Lord President of the Council, who spoke with great authority on the subject of this Bill, made one or two criticisms—friendly criticisms I think I might call them—to one or two of which I should like to advert for a moment. The noble Duke rather lamented over the absence of a Preamble. Well, my Lords, Preambles are not very useful methods of legislation. It is true that there was once a Preamble in the Bill—an extremely long Preamble; but in the House of Commons objection was taken to some important matters in the Preamble, and the Government coincided with these objections. Moreover, I think this further reason occurred to me at the time, that, as the noble Lord who has just sat down has remarked, the Commissioners will have quite sufficient to do to carry out the Bill as it is, and it might act as a further restriction upon their action if they were supposed to be bound by a lengthened Preamble. Well, then, the
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noble Duke rather animadverted—as well as the noble Earl behind me (the Earl of Camperdown)—upon the proportion of the representative element to be introduced, and both the noble Earl and the noble Duke agreed in what they said as to the principle of the municipal element. My Lords, there is nothing in the Bill to favour the idea they have put forward. The words of the Act are these—
"Where the governing body, or a majority of the governing body, of any educational endowment as at present constituted, consists of persons deriving their qualification as members thereof, either directly or indirectly, from their election to be members of the town council of any burgh or of any other public body, provision shall be made in any scheme under this Act relating to such endowment that not less than two thirds of the governing body thereof as altered by such scheme shall consist of persons elected by such town council or other public body aforesaid."
Well, I am one of those who are friendly to the introduction of the municipal element in Governing Bodies. They are surely a useful element in a large class of great trusts, concerning, or very likely to concern, a great municipality; and it cannot be wrong or distasteful to your Lordships, or repugnant to educational reformers of the most ardent type, that there should be a proportion of those who have been elected especially to supervize the affairs of the town, who should also supervize the educational affairs of the town. My Lords, there is another public body which I do not think was mentioned by the noble Earl or the noble Duke, and to which, of course, special reference must be made by the framers of the Bill, and that is the school hoard. When the great mass of these educational endowments were brought into play, there was no educational agency to which Parliament could refer. But now in every parish and every town there is a school board specially elected with a view to the educational provision for the parish and locality; and I think it would be wrong and shortsighted if we were, in dealing with a great educational subject of this sort, to refuse to recognize the school board as an element for consideration. Then the noble Duke alluded, I think, with more apprehension than the subject required, to the fear of a giver of theological endowments that they should he given to some Dissenting Body. But I do not suppose that the cases of givers

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of theological endowments in their lifetime running this risk are likely to be very numerous, for Section 8 of this Bill says—
"This Act shall not apply to any endowment solely or mainly applicable or applied for the purposes of theological instruction or belonging to any theological institution."
So I think that danger—if I may use the word without disrespect—is a visionary one. Well, then, the noble Duke said something about the Society for Propagating Christian Knowledge, and he thought that the words in the 1st clause amply covered the educational portion of the question with which the Bill proposed to deal. My Lords, if I were to make a full confession on the subject, I should avow myself to be in complete accordance with the noble Lord on that subject. But, as I understand it, the Society for the Propagation of Christian Knowledge expressed its wish to come under the authority of the Commissioners, and a wish to that effect was also expressed by a large body of Scotch Members in the House of Commons. They were disposed to question whether it would come under the Bill or not as it stood, and therefore it was that we thought it in offensive and safe to mention the association by name. Then the noble Earl (the Earl of Camperdown) alluded to the difficulty of selecting children for the benefits of free primary education. Well, I believe that in the largest Institution that Scotland possesses for the purposes of education—I mean Heriot's Hospital— no difficulty has been found in that respect; and I am not disposed to think that that would present any very serious difficulty to the persons who may be charged with the selection of the children for free primary education under this Act. I am sorry to say that, prosperous as Scotland is reported to be—and I think undoubtedly is—there is no fear at present that deserving poverty will cease to exist, and whenever the poverty is deserving it is entitled to share in the benefits of this Bill. The noble Duke spoke with the authority with which he always speaks of Institutions of this kind, and a representation from the noble Duke on behalf of a great Institution like Heriot's Hospital cannot fail to receive great attention from your Lordships. I confess so much interest in it as this—that the founder of Heriot's Hospital
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married an ancestor of my own; and I have no doubt that the money bequeathed by George Heriot has been much better spent than it might have been if it had been left—as I sometimes think it might have been left—to his wife's family. But the noble Duke's argument was this. He said the income of that Institution amounted to about £24,000 a-year, and the noble Duke's argument was that because there was a Commission going to be passed to deal with educational endowments in Scotland, therefore this, the largest educational endowment with which it is proposed to deal, should he exempted from the operations of the Bill. I cannot admit that as an argument of any validity or force on a question of this kind. The particular point he raises, and with which he proposes to deal in Committee, will be best dealt with at that stage of the Bill; but I think the general plea is one that does not deserve recognition at the hands of your Lordships. I think I have now dealt with every point that requires explanation from the Government, and I have to thank your Lordships, on the part of the Government, for the way in which you have received this Bill.
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee o the Whole House on Thursday next.
Subsequently,
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, he understood the Committee on the Educational Endowments (Scotland) Bill was to be taken on Thursday, and he wished to know if Amendments could be given in on Wednesday? The Notice was very short.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: It is very short Notice indeed. Could the Bill not be taken on Friday?
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, he did not wish to refer to the Bill; only he wished to know how he could give Notice of Amendments?
EARL GRANVILLE: The House will adjourn during pleasure, in order, if possible, to receive the Arrears Bill tonight. In that case, if the noble Earl could give in the Amendments before the final adjournment of the House, he would be quite in Order. The Arrears Bill will take precedence of the Scotch Bill on Thursday.

EGYPT (POLITICAL AFFAIRS)—THE SUEZ CANAL.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD ELLENBOROUGHasked the noble Lord the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether it is the present opinion of Her Majesty's Government that the Suez Canal is not within the purview of the Conference now being held at Constantinople, as previously stated in another place by the First Lord of the Treasury? He trusted that the language which had been used by the right hon. Gentleman was not a mere hasty expression intended to meet the exigencies of the moment.
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I have no doubt that the noble Lord opposite will remember a story told of a minor courtier of Louis XIV., who, in reply to a frequent question from His Majesty as to how many children he had, always replied that he had two, until on one occasion, he replied that he had eight. "Eight," said His Majesty, "why you told me the other day that you had only two." "Yes, your Majesty," replied the courtier; "but I thought perhaps that your Majesty might be tired of hearing me always say the same thing, and, therefore, I have altered the number." My Lords, I am a little in the same position. The noble Lord has asked me a Question which I answered a fortnight ago, and I must either invent something new or only weary your Lordships by repeating what I have already stated—that is, that neither Sir Charles Dilke nor myself said that the Suez Canal was outside the reference to the Conference, and that Mr. Gladstone, although he gave in general terms an Answer to a Question put without Notice, made very soon afterwards an explanation to the House to the effect that whereas the question of the neutralization of the Suez Canal was outside the reference to the Conference, yet in regard to the Canal itself it was impossible to separate it entirely from the question called the Egyptian Question proper.

EGYPT (MILITARY EXPEDITION)—POSTAL COMMUNICATION WITH THE ARMY.—QUESTION.
VISCOUNT MONCKasked the Under Secretary for War, Whether any arrange-
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ments have been made for affording facilities for postal communication with the Army in Egypt?
THE EARL OF MORLEY: My Lords, we are at present engaged with the authorities of the General Post Office in making arrangements for postal communication between this country and the Expeditionary Force in Egypt. As soon as these arrangements are completed, they will be published in the newspapers. Meanwhile, I can give the noble Lord some information in answer to his Question. Letters should be addressed to the "Expeditionary Force, Egypt." Letters will be posted three times a-week—Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. The Post Office authorities, having in view the difficulties which may sometimes arise in the field of obtaining postage stamps, will allow all letters to be posted from the Army unstamped, and will charge only single rates on their delivery in this country, the men's letters being charged 1d., the officers' the ordinary single rate. This arrangement will be of great convenience to the Forces. I may add that the formation of a Post Office Corps is a peculiar and entirely new feature in this Expedition. One hundred men of the Post Office Volunteer Corps have been enlisted, so as to render them subject to military discipline. Of these, two officers and 43 men will accompany the Expedition. The remaining 57 were enlisted and passed at once into the Reserve, and are available for service should they be required. They take with them marquees for sorting letters, issuing money orders, and all the machinery of a regular Post Office. As might be expected, there was no lack of volunteers for this service, and I am told by an officer who was present at their inspection that they presented a most satisfactory appearance.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed by The Lord MONSON.

ARREARS OF RENT (IRELAND) BILL.
Returned from the Commons with several of the amendments agreed to, several agreed to with amendments, and with consequential amendments to the Bill, and one amendment disagreed to, with reasons for such disagreement: The said amendments and reasons to be printed, and to be considered on Thursday next. (No. 232.)
House adjourned at half-past Eleven o'clock, to Thursday next, a quarter before Four o'clock.