COMMITTEE. (Hansard, 25 April 1882)

§ VISCOUNT BURY
said, it was remarkable that in a year which was distinguished more than any other for Army changes there had been no adequate opportunity afforded for discussing those changes in either House of Parliament. The exigencies of the public service in the other House of Parliament had obliged the Estimates to be taken at a very late hour, and only the most cursory opportunity had since been given for touching on the few important points that arose. It was only by putting Questions occasionally that any information could be obtained in regard to the Army, for there had been no regular debate. When the present Bill was read a second time in their Lordships' House, there was little opportunity for discussion, although there were a great number of points which ought to be considered in regard to recent legislation in the Army. He was not going to find fault with the changes that had been made, for as to a great many, a consensus of military opinion was very much in their favour; but he did complain of this—that since 1871 the Army had been in a perpetual state of change, and noble Lords had been constantly told that the Army was in "a transition state," and that "they must not expect too much." Only last night the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Morley) had repeated, what had often been said before—that the Army was in a transition state, and that the full value of the changes could not be yet appreciated. It was undeniable that the main object of our great Army expenditure was to be able to put an efficient Army in the field on a few days' notice; that was the long and the short of the whole question, and so long as they stopped short of that they had not got that for which they paid£15,500,000 a-year. Well, were they in that position now? The noble and gallant Earl who spoke last night (the Earl of Longford) went so far as to say that there was not a regiment in the Service in an efficient condition. He (Viscount Bury) would not go that length; but he must say they were not in a position which had been so long promised. They were not, in the case of a small war, able to put an Army Corps into the field. In the event of a large war, there were legislative provisions which they could put into operation to enable them to raise a Force; but in regard to a small war, 1373 they were very little better off than they were in 1877. They were still in a transition state, and would have, in case of necessity, to resort to the system which had been denounced by the late Adjutant General Sir Charles Ellice as the most pernicious system which had ever been invented by the ingenuity of man—namely, to call upon men to volunteer from one regiment to another, and thus to leave the already attenuated home regiments still further emasculated. The noble Earl opposite would, no doubt, say that a great deal had been done since Mr. Childers and he had been in Office, and he (Viscount Bury) was not going to deny it. He believed they had improved the condition of the Army; but he would go so far as to say, without fear of contradiction, that there was not one officer in 100—nay, not one officer in the whole Army—who thoroughly understood the position in which the Army stood at the present moment, so much confusion having been created by different Acts of Parliament, Royal Warrants, General Orders, and other Regulations. Those details were only known to those within the War Office, and he doubted if they were known to half-a-dozen even in that Department. They had now a new Army, for the old had entirely disappeared. The system, too, of Indian reliefs had been so altered that they had now a local Army in India, and the system of promotion had been altered so as to fit in with the short service. He did not wish to put a definite Resolution which would produce a debate; but he wished to explain to his noble Friend the difficulties under which those who took an interest in the Army laboured. The public also took an interest in the Army; but that interest would be increased if they could follow, in an intelligible manner, the changes which had been made during the last 10 years. He wished, therefore, to ask his noble Friend (the Earl of Morley) whether it would not be possible to issue a Memorandum, showing the various changes which had been made since Lord Card-well introduced the short service system, and showing the effect of all the Acts of Parliament bearing on the Army, all the recommendations of Committees and Commissions, and the suggestions which had been made in their Office in reference to the Army, in order to show, at a glance, the actual condition of the Army? 1374 No doubt, many Ministerial speeches had been made on the subject of Army reform; but they necessarily lacked the value of an official Paper such as he suggested.

THE EARL OF MORLEY
said, he was sure their Lordships would not find fault with his noble Friend (Viscount Bury) for taking that opportunity of bringing those matters before the House. He quite agreed with his noble Friend as to the desirability of making the changes which had been, and which were being made in the Army intelligible alike to officers and to the public. As to the importance of being able on brief notice to place a small Army in the field, there could be no doubt about it, and the object of the War Office had been to place the battalions not at the strength they would be at in time of war, but at a higher strength, which would give a margin, allowing untrained or unfit men to be left at home, and yet having a full-strength battalion fit for foreign service. It had been the wish of the Government to bring about such a state of things as that; and if they had not as yet succeeded it would be admitted that the battalions had been much improved in strength, and that generally they were in a state of transition. They had been so since 1871, and it was inevitable that it should be so until the short service system, and the changes of organization which resulted from its adoption, had come thoroughly into effect. Steps which had recently been taken had been in the direction pointed out by the Predecessors of the present Government, and with a natural and necessary result of what had been initiated by Lord Cardwell, and lately developed by Lord Cranbrook and Colonel Stanley. At the present time the Government were endeavouring to carry out a most important change, which would give them a certain number of battalions ready to go abroad at short notice. Lord Cardwell's system, it was said, was based on the assumption that when one battalion was abroad another would be at home; but it also embraced the supposition that the battalions at the top of the Roster should be of a certain strength; but for various reasons—and he (the Earl of Morley) did not blame one Government more than another—the conditions on which the noble Lord had based his calculation, no doubt, 1375 had not been rigidly adhered to. The War Office saw the importance of keeping the battalions comprised in the First Army Corps always fit for service. But those battalions could not be brought up to their new establishments and rendered efficient by a stroke of the pen. To increase their strength it was necessary to pour recruits into them—that was the only course which could be pursued; and consequently at the present time, no doubt, the proportion of young soldiers in the high-strength battalions at home was greater than was desirable, and their condition could not be regarded as quite satisfactory. That difficulty had been aggravated by the fact that the changes of organization had necessitated alterations in the Roster, bringing weaker battalions suddenly higher up on the Roster. It could only be remedied by time. Soldiers serving in the First Army Corps would not be sent to the Reserve before completing seven years' service, and by degrees the battalions would harden into efficiency; and when the temporary circumstances referred to, which necessitated rapid recruiting, had passed away, he hoped and believed that the object which all parties wished to attain would be gained—namely, they would have a number of battalions sufficient to constitute a small Army for sudden emergencies, or for small Colonial wars, fit to take the field at very short notice. As to there having been no discussion on the condition of the Army, the noble Viscount rather exaggerated the state of the case. Almost all the great changes that had been carried out of late years had been ably discussed and ably criticized, and if they had not, it was not the fault of the Government who had carried them into effect. He thought that, from the discussions which had taken place with regard to recent reforms, they met with the approval of the public generally, and it was only fair that time should be given for the development of the changes which they had already effected. How far it would be possible to carry out the suggestion of his noble Friend, by drawing up a Memorandum showing all the changes that had been introduced since 1871, and collating them with the recommendations of the various Committees and Commissions which had sat upon the subject, he could not at present say; 1376 but he would take an opportunity of talking over the subject with him, and would see what could be done.

§ EARL FORTESCUE
pointed out that last Session he had given Notice of a Motion for a Return as to the impressment of means of transport for soldiers in Ireland, under certain ancient statutory powers empowering the Executive in Ireland to authorize the impressment of horses and animals of all kinds, together with vehicles and boats of all descriptions, for the service of Her Majesty, under an order of emergency, enabling any field officer to impress any of these at a reasonable price. To his surprise, last year he (Earl Fortescue) was requested to abstain from so moving by the noble Under Secretary of State for War (the Earl of Morley), by the direction of the Secretary of State (Mr. Childers), who considered it undesirable for the Public Service to introduce the Motion at that time. It seemed to him that the moral effect produced by the spectacle of a car owner being allowed successfully to refuse the use of cars to troops, without recourse being instantly had to the powers conferred by statute upon the Executive to enable the officers to impress them, could not fail to have the worst influence, by encouraging the spirit of defiance to the law, and bringing contempt upon the Executive in the minds of people of all classes. He read with shame and indignation accounts of soldiers and constabulary, weary and way-worn, marching along the road, while jeering Land Leaguers drove beside them in cars which had been refused to them. He wished to ask whether, during the past year, since he gave Notice of his Motion, the powers of the Government in that respect had been exercised at all? Turning to another subject, he would like to have some information about the localization scheme, as to how it was likely to work in Ireland. Owing to the influence it exercised in encouraging recruiting, it, no doubt, answered admirably in loyal districts—that was, he was glad to say, throughout all England, Wales, and Scotland; but it might not be as safely applied to the county of Tipperary in Ireland, He desired to cast no impu- 1377 tation whatever on the regiment in question, long recruited from different parts of Ireland, which, ever since the time of William III. had been conspicuous for its loyalty. He hoped, however, that the Government would not, for the sake of symmetry and uniformity, commit the rash act of exclusively recruiting for an Irish regiment in a district far from well affected to the English Crown and to the maintenance of law and order.

LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE
said, he fully concurred with what had been said by the noble Earl opposite (Earl Fortescue). When the new system of recruiting particular regiments from particular districts only was introduced, he had stated that in parts of Ireland it would result in forming a rebel army. He questioned, in the present disturbed state of Ireland, when they saw the people so disaffected as they were at present, whether it would not be a most unfortunate thing that recruiting should be carried on in districts in which there was no concealment of the disaffection that existed. He wished to call attention to another thing, and that was to the fact that soldiers were being sent about in Ireland in twos and threes to give protection to those who were in danger, and there was much fear of their being altogether demoralized. If it was said that only the old and steady men were taken for this service, and not raw recruits, it was quite clear that the steady men were just those who were required with their regiments to set the recruits a good example. Policemen were also sent with the soldiers; and he wished to know who would command a party consisting of two policemen and two soldiers? Such occurrences could not tend to increase the discipline of the Army or of the Police.