Lords Sitting of 29 March 1881

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Local Courts of Bankruptcy (Ireland)* (56).
Royal Assent—Consolidated Fund (No. 2) [44 Vict. c. 8]; Local Taxation Returns (Scotland) [44 Vict. c. 6]; India Office (Sale of Superfluous Land) [44 Vict. c. 7]; Local Government Provisional Orders (Godalming, &c.) [44 Vict. c. i].

SOUTH AFRICA—THE TRANSVAAL (MILITARY OPERATIONS)—SURRENDER OF POTCHEFSTROOM.

  QUESTION.
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOK: I wish to put a Question to the noble Earl opposite as to the peculiar information which is published respecting the surrender of one of the British garrisons in the Transvaal. According to the accounts in the newspapers Potchefstroom was surrendered during the armistice, as the provisions were within one day of reaching it. According to one account, the surrender seems to have taken place after a severe fight, in which it is said that 19 officers and soldiers were killed and 90 wounded. I should, therefore, like to know whether the noble Earl has any official account of the affair?
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: The Secretary of State for War yesterday received the following telegram from Sir Evelyn Wood:—
  "March 28.—Fort Amiel, 12 noon.—Winsloe surrendered Potchefstroom on the 21st, before my mule waggons, which left Mount Prospect the 7th, had traversed the distance—200 miles. Terms: All honours of war, retaining private weapons and property; guns and rifles surrendered, but ammunition for both to be handed to Brand for custody during war, after which to be returned to us. Garrison not to serve during the hostilities at present existing. Garrison now marching viâ Kronstadt on Natal."
  I have conferred already with Mr. Childers on the subject; but we are not yet in possession of sufficient information to guide Her Majesty's Government as to the reply to be sent to Sir Evelyn Wood.
  EARL CAIRNS: I wish to ask if the Government have any knowledge as to whether there was fighting on the occasion of the surrender of the place; and,
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  if so, whether there was, as reported, any loss of life?
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: The whole of the information we have on the subject I have just read; but if I were to venture any conjecture I should say that the newspaper accounts refer to killed and wounded during the whole time the garrison was beleaguered. That, however, is entirely conjecture on my part.

  CANDAHAR.—QUESTION.
  LORD WAVENEYasked Her Majesty's Government—(1) Which Government, the Indian or Afghan, receives at present the revenues of Candahar; and subject to what account? (2) In the event of Candahar being transferred to the Government of Abdurrahman, what means of protection for British subjects will be adopted; and, whether a consul, with right of flag and escort, will reside in that city?
  VISCOUNT ENFIELD: With regard to the first portion of my noble Friend's Question, I have to state that, although the Secretary of State has not received any specific or detailed information on the subject, there is very little reason to doubt that the Indian Government have been in receipt of the revenues of Candahar during the occupation of the place. With regard to the second part of the Question, I may say that my noble Friend (the Marquess of Hartington) hopes shortly to be informed as to what arrangements the Indian Government have made with Abdurrahman with respect to Candahar; but at present we have no specific or detailed information on the subject.

CONTAGIOUS DISEASES (ANIMALS) ACTS—FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE.

  QUESTION.
  THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEasked the Lord President of the Council, What are the intentions of the Privy Council with regard to the Orders relative to foot and mouth disease which expire on the 31st of March; and whether the Privy Council have decided what regulations they intend to impose for the next few months?
  EARL SPENCER: In answer to the Question which my noble Friend has put to me, I will lay before your Lord-

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  ships the course which the Privy Council have taken and intend to take with regard to the foot-and-mouth disease. There have been four Orders of a temporary character issued, and they expire on the 31st of March next. First, there is the "Markets and Fairs Order," by which all public sales of animals throughout England and Wales are prohibited, except by licence, the local authority being empowered to grant licences for the sale of fat stock for slaughter, while no sale of store stock is allowed without a licence from the Privy Council. This is a very strong measure, without doubt, applying as it does to the healthy districts; but there is every reason to believe that it has been effective, coupled with the restrictions imposed on the infected areas, in preventing the spread of the disease. It is clear, however, that such a severe measure could only have been enforced at a period of the year when the movement of animals is not so essential as at other times, and it is not proposed to continue that Order after the 31st instant. From that date, therefore, the holding of markets, fairs, and sales of animals will be unrestricted, except within the infected areas. The second Order, which expires on the 31st of March, is the Metropolitan Foot-and-Mouth Disease Order, which limits the markets to be held in the Metropolis to the one market at Islington, at which fat animals only can be sold for slaughter within 10 days, and within the limits of the Metropolis. One very fruitful source of disease has always been this central market, and it is certain that so long as disease exists in the country a free circulation of animals that have been exposed in the Metropolitan markets throughout other districts must tend to spread the disease. The Privy Council propose, therefore, to continue the prohibition against the exit of animals front the Metropolis that have been exposed in the market for another month—namely, till April 30. The third temporary Order which was passed was an Order affecting Scotland. It was passed with a view of preventing the introduction of this very insidious disease into that country. The Privy Council passed it, and by that Order all cattle coming from England were prohibited from entering Scotland until the 31st of March. The Order has been entirely successful, I am happy to say, foot-and-mouth
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  disease having been completely kept out of Scotland. At the instance of the Highland Society, whom I consulted about renewing the Order, the Privy Council propose to renew this Order in Scotland until the 30th of April. They have made a modification in the Order to remedy an inconvenience which was felt by owners of stock in Scotland, who pastured animals across the Border, and who are now anxious to get those animals back to their farms. The Council will, therefore, give a relaxation of the Order to such an extent that Scotch owners who have stock across the Borders may, under a licence to be granted under certain conditions, bring them back to Scotland. The fourth Order, which has reference to the New Forest, we do not propose to renew. There is no disease, I am happy to say, around the New Forest, and the authorities in that district are anxious that the Order should not be renewed. There seems to be no necessity for renewing it. I now come to the General Infected Area Order, which affects all districts where foot-and-mouth disease exists. In the early part of the year, or the end of last year, the Privy Council carried out a large policy with regard to the infected areas. Instead of leaving a so-called "infected district" small in extent, we extended its area over the whole county, our anxiety being to forestall disease, because we found that if we waited until disease came it very often appeared at a market and spread over the county before we could take steps to stop it. The Order has been very successful, for we have had a constant diminution of disease from then to the present time. I have a Return showing the number of cases in the several districts in the different weeks from the week ending January 8 to March 26. In the week ending January 8 there were 256 outbreaks; in the week ending January 15, 217; in the following week they went down to 174; in the week ending 5th March to 70; and in the week ending 26th March to 34. That, I think, is a satisfactory result, and one which compares very favourably with other outbreaks that have taken place. The time, however, has now arrived when the Privy Council feel that they are no longer justified in keeping up such large areas, and they propose from time to time to reduce them so as to free those parts of

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  the existing areas which have become free from disease from the restrictions under which they are now placed. In order to do this, particular information is required from each local authority as to the state of disease within the area, for it must be remembered that by Section 26 (3) of the Act the Privy Council having declared an area infected may at any time when there is not within that area, or within some particular portion thereof, any place infected with foot-and-mouth disease, declare that area, or that portion thereof, to be free. The Privy Council cannot, therefore, deal with any area, or any part of an area, until they know that the local authority has declared all infected places in that area or part of an area to be free. The Privy Council are going carefully through each area seriatim, and have called upon the local authorities to furnish them with the requisite information. As regards the restrictions to be placed upon those parts of the country which it may be necessary to keep as infected areas, it is proposed to consolidate and simply the orders which now apply to sales and movement within those areas. Under the new Regulations, markets and sales will only be allowed under licence of the local authority for fat stock to be slaughtered within four days, but not confined, as at present, to slaughter within the areas. Store stock sales will only be allowed by license of the Privy Council; and no sale, public or private, will be allowed on any farm or premises, unless the animals to be sold have been for 14 days on the premises, and have not been in contact with other animals. With a view to the protection of healthy districts in exceptionally dangerous positions, it is proposed to allow them to prohibit the introduction of animals from any other specified districts, with the special sanction of the Privy Council. I should like, as I have touched on these matters, to refer to the Regulations which we have made at the foreign animals' wharves. Your Lordships know that the Regulations with regard to disease there are exceedingly important, and unless carried out with energy and care there is always a danger of this insidious disease getting out from the market, and being spread in different parts of the country. We have introduced very important Regulations with regard to the
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  foreign wharves. First of all, we have prevented a thing which, I believe, is legal, but which we thought was exceedingly dangerous—the sending of homebred cattle to the slaughterhouses at those foreign wharves. That is not illegal; but a danger arises that there might be some animals with foot-and-mouth disease recently slaughtered there, and the owners coming in contact with the disease would carry it outside after leaving the market, and we think that an important Regulation to have had introduced. We have, further, got the Corporation—and I am bound to say the Corporation have been most ready to meet the views of the Privy Council in all these matters—we have got them to divide the market in sections, and provide each section with slaughterhouses. When that is carried out, foreign animals that may arrive with disease will be kept within a certain block, not allowed to leave, and slaughtered in houses specially prepared; and, further than that, all who come in to see the cattle, whether drovers or owners, are obliged before they leave to be very thoroughly disinfected. That is not a very pleasant process; but I believe it has been satisfactorily carried out, and we hope to prevent the danger from persons going backwards and forwards from those places to other cattle. We hope to arrange for different hours of holding the markets in such a way that those who go to the foreign wharf at Deptford shall not be able to go also amongst the cattle at Islington, which has spread the disease more than once. I believe the Corporation have agreed to make an alteration with regard to the hours in order to meet that. Then, my Lords, there is another point which is not exactly arranged, but which I am endeavouring to get the Corporation to agree to—namely, to have a separate body of men to attend upon the cattle at the foreign markets. Now, the drovers and attendants on those cattle are in the habit of going to Deptford and other places, and naturally when there is disease at Deptford they carry the disease to other markets and places, and that is a source of considerable danger. I took the opportunity some time ago of visiting Deptford, and I threw out a suggestion as to that, and we now hope to carry that change into effect. We hope to be able to diminish very largely the danger, which I am afraid must to some extent

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  exist, from the arrival in England of animals diseased from other countries. We hope not only to carry out those Regulations at Deptford, but also to carry them out at other foreign animal wharves which are in different parts of the country. I wish also to say that my noble Friend behind me, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs; has been in communication with various Governments abroad, and has urged them to make Regulations to stop the traffic of sending diseased animals to England from those countries. My Lords, I think I have stated the position in which the country stands with regard to these Orders. We are now very carefully going through all the different counties in England, and hope in every county to reduce the number of areas to a much larger extent than has been done before; and if your Lordships are interested in any particular county I should be glad to answer any question upon the subject and give any explanation. I may say we hope to publish nearly all these Orders in The Gazette to-morrow.
  LORD DENMANasked that further time should be given for the continuance of the necessity for the Orders for removal which were so easily obtained; and as the Privy Council was a deliberative body, there was yet time, before the 31st of March, to provide for their being enforced for a longer time, as they were so great a safeguard.

  LOCAL COURTS OF BANKRUPTCY (IRELAND) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill for the establishment of Local Courts of Bankruptcy in Ireland—Was presented by The Lord O'HAGAN; read la. (No. 56.)
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, to Thursday next, half past Ten o'clock.