Lords Sitting of 17 March 1881

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—India Office (Sale of Superfluous Land) * (51). Committee—Report—Peace Preservation (Ireland) * (46).
Third Reading—Alkali, &c. Works Regulation * (49); Rivers Conservancy and Floods Prevention (44), and passed.

THE COMMITTEE ROOMS OF THIS HOUSE—THE JUDGES.

  OBSERVATION.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)wished to call the attention of their Lordships to the fact that a second of the Committee Rooms of the House had recently been occupied by the Judges for the administration of the law. This had been done without the permission of the House, and he thought it desirable that their Lordships should receive some information on the matter.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he did not exactly know on what principle his noble Friend would act in a case of this kind; but he did know it was a matter of very great convenience to the public that the room in question, while
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  not required for the Business of the House, should be used for the purpose of the administration of justice. He was himself so far, and so far only, responsible for what was done in this instance, that he had requested, in what he had understood to be the proper quarter and the proper manner, that this accommodation should be afforded at the present time, if any room not now required for the use of the House could be made available for the purpose could had given him pleasure to find that what he asked had been done; and he had, till this moment, imagined that he might have been partly indebted for this favour to the good offices of his noble Friend. He regretted now to find that this was not the case, and that his noble Friend thought that there had been some irregularity in the matter. If it was so, he was unable to explain how it had happened; but, whoever might be held responsible, he was quite sure that it had been done without any wish whatever to encroach on the rights and privileges of their Lordships' House. For some time the use of a Committee Room had been given to the Court of Appeal, and, from the manner in which that concession had been permitted by the House, he had concluded that there was no reason for thinking that their Lordships would be unwilling to place another room at the service of the public for the administration of justice, so long as it was not required for the Business of their Lordships' House.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)said, that on the ground floor of their Lordships' House there were only three Committee Rooms, so that if three Committees were appointed they would not have rooms to meet in. The room recently appropriated to the administration of justice had been given to the Judges without any previous consultation with the House.

  STANDING ORDER, No. IV.—THE JUDICIAL BUSINESS OF THIS HOUSE.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved—
  "That Standing Order, No. IV., applicable to Appeals, be amended by omitting all words from the word 'Respondent' in line 20, to the end of the Order, and inserting in lieu thereof the following words, viz.: 'Ordered, that in the event of the Clerk of the Parliaments requiring a justification of the sureties or substitute, the Ap-

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  pellant's Agent shall, within one week from the date of an official notice to him to that effect, lodge in the Parliament Office an affidavit or affidavits by the proposed sureties or substitute setting forth specifically the nature of the property in consideration of which they claim to be accepted as sureties in respect of the bond or as substitute in respect of the recognizance, and also declaring that the property in question is unincumbered: Ordered, that in the event of such sureties not being deemed satisfactory by the Clerk of the Parliaments, the Appellant or Appellants shall, within four weeks from the date of an official notice by the Clerk of the Parliaments to that effect, pay into the account of the Fee Fund of the House of Lords the sum of two hundred pounds, to be subject to the Order of the House with regard to the Costs of the Appeal; and, in the event of such substitute not being deemed satisfactory by the Clerk of the Parliaments, the Appellant or Appellants shall enter into the usual recognizance in person: Ordered, that the said bond and the recognizance (whether entered into by the Appellants or by a substitute) be returned to the Parliament Office duly executed within one week from the date of the issue thereof to the Solicitor or Agent of the Appellant or Appellants. On default by the Appellant or Appellants in complying with the above conditions, the Appeal to stand dismissed.'"
  Motion agreed to.

  RIVERS CONSERVANCY AND FLOODS PREVENTION BILL.—(No. 44.)
  (The Lord President.)
  Bill read 3a (according to Order).
  On Question, "That the Bill do pass?"
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN moved as an Amendment the omission of Clause 50, which, he said, violated the principle of the Bill. That principle was to include all lands in a greater or less degree, and to make all lands liable in a greater or less degree for the expense of carrying out the objects of the Bill. But this clause defeated that principle by exempting the lands of Government Departments. Boards of Conservancy could not interfere with those lands without the consent of the Departments, so that the latter would be enabled to defeat the objects of the Bill altogether, or to make agreements behind the scene.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSET, in opposing the Amendment, observed that these Departments had no special private interest in the matter, and there was no good reason why the usual clause should not be inserted in this Bill.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that the clause would enable the Go-
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  vernment Departments to withdraw the matter from the control of Parliament. He thought that was going too far. If the Conservancy Boards were permitted to make a Provisional Order in their case as well as in that of private owners, the Provisional Order would be laid before Parliament, and the Departments would be able to urge their objections in each particular case. Of course, the Departments acted in the public interest; but there was such a thing as a difference of opinion among engineers.
  EARL SPENCERsaid, he could not agree to the Amendment to omit the clause, which, it was well to point out, had nothing whatever to do with rating. No doubt, there was force in what the noble Marquess had said; but the clause could not now be left out. Its omission would lead to inconvenience—it having been made imperative on the various Departments interested to come to an agreement with the authority under the Bill. If the clause were struck out, they would find one Department appearing, on an inquiry, in opposition to another; and the Admiralty would no longer have power over the outfall of rivers. A great responsibility was thrown on the Government Departments in matters such as would arise under the Bill. As had been pointed out by his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack on a previous evening, these matters might involve questions of national importance, such as defence, navigation, the lighting of coasts, &c.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORobserved, that if this clause were struck out of the Bill, there would not be in it any other clause mentioning any description of Crown property; and that, consequently, on the general principle of interpretation, estates or lands directly vested in the Crown—all which were comprehended in this clause as it now stood—would become entirely exempt from the scope of the Bill, and could not be brought within it, even by the consent of any of the Public Departments entrusted with their management.
  THE EARL OF MALMESBURYobserved, that the Crown ought in justice to contribute its share towards the drainage of the 50,000 or 60,000 acres which constituted the New Forest. That forest lay for 10 miles on the left side of the River Eden, which at its conflux with Christ Church River had formed a

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  bar, which extended along the coast for a distance of two miles, causing a block in the current, and sending the water back upon the land. The riparian proprietors could not remove that obstruction without the assistance of the Admiralty.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNinsisted that the representatives of the property of the Crown should be put on the same footing as the ordinary landowners.
  Amendment negatived.
  THE EARL OF SANDWICHexpressed the hope that the Lord President would do all he could to expedite the passage of the Bill in "another place." If any question was urgent this was one was. Landowners had done all they could, but were powerless in the matter.
  Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

TURKEY AND GREECE—THE FRONTIER QUESTION.

  ADDRESS FOR PAPERS.
  LORD STRATHEDEN AND CAMPBELL, in rising to call attention to Correspondence on the Greek Frontier and to move an Address to the Crown for Copies of the remaining Despatches from the French Government on the differences between Greece and the Ottoman Empire, said: My Lords, the Notice I have given arises partly from some discussions which occurred in August last, when many of the House were naturally absent. It is two-fold, as it proposes to call attention to Correspondence on the Greek Frontier we possess, and to move for several Despatches of the French Government which are withheld from us. As regards the first portion of the Notice, the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs having intimated to me a great reluctance to discuss it while negotiations are proceeding, I shall not touch upon it. But, as regards the Despatches of the French Government, without detaining the House at length, their position may be stated. They have been collected from the French Official Book in the Mémorial Diplomatique of the 29th of January. Three of them have been presented to the Legislature, while 13 are absent. [The noble Lord gave the dates of those which had appeared, and those which he thought the House ought to require the production of.] My Lords, the tendency of
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  these Despatches as a whole is to give the true interpretation of the Conference at Berlin. They are an elaborate reply to current fallacies by which the peace of Europe is endangered. They point out, with a lucidity which ought to be acknowledged, and greater eloquence than seems to be required in compositions of the kind, or than is generally found in them, that the Conference was only framed for mediating purposes; that mediation and arbitration are not to be confounded with each other; that mediation implies free choice in the two States which differ as to whether they will act upon the counsel of the mediator. In exact proportion as the European body is familiarized with the arguments of M. St. Hilaire, war between Greece and the Porte is hindered and discouraged. The inconveniences of such a war will hardly be disputed by your Lordships. It must throw back Greece financially at least for a considerable period. It must occasion loss of treasure to the other and, perhaps, the more impoverished belligerent. It would be calculated to inflame the latent elements of discord between the Danube and the Bosphorus. It might re-establish in European Turkey the hostile occupation, which did not willingly or hastily abandon it. Now, there is not any technical objection to the complete production of these documents. The principle is granted. You may give all, if you give any. They cannot possibly impede negotiations. On the contrary, their influence in tranquillizing Greece must be augmented by the echo they receive and by the number of political societies through which they vibrate to its councils. Nor ought the course which I am taking to be embarrassing to the Government, since they may accede without debate, if they think proper, to the Motion. As far as I can judge, after devoting much attention to the whole of the French Despatches, there is nothing to place the three to which we are confined in a different and a safer category from those which I now move for.
  Moved, "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for copies of the remaining despatches from the French Government on the differences between Greece and the Ottoman Empire."—(The Lord Stratheden and Campbell.)
  EARL GRANVILLEthanked the noble Lord for having acceded to his suggestion as to the general question, and for

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  the careful manner in which he had introduced his Motion. It would be impossible for him at this moment to enter into the policy of the Government, or into the subject on which the noble Lord had so very lightly touched. He would have been very happy to give the noble Lord what he asked for were it in his power to do so; but Her Majesty's Government had not received any additional despatches beyond those which had already been published. It was quite true that the French Government had sent two Circulars to their Repretatives here and elsewhere which were published in their Yellow Book; but Her Majesty's Government had not received those Circulars. The noble Lord would, however, find that the substance of them was included in two Despatches to be found in the Blue Book—one a despatch from Lord Lyons at Paris, and the other a despatch from Mr. Corbett at Athens.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
  House adjourned at Six o'clock, till to-morrow, a quarter before Five o'clock.