Lords Sitting of 29 July 1881

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Leases for Schools (Ireland) * (188); Land Law (Ireland) * (187).
Second Reading—Public Loans (Ireland) Remission* (176).
Committee—Metropolitan Open Spaces Act (1877) Amendment* (164).
Committee—Report—Universities of Oxford and Cambridge (Statutes)* (178); Turnpike Acts Continuance* (170); Patriotic Fund* (183); Customs (Officers) * (168).
Third Reading—Universities (Scotland) Registration of Parliamentary Voters, &c. * (173); British Honduras (Court of Appeal) * (167); Pedlars (Certificates) * (163); Metallic Mines (Gunpowder) * (169); Seed Supply and other Acts (Ireland) Amendment* (177), and passed.

MINISTERS STIPENDS, &c. (SCOTLAND).

  ADDRESS FOR A RETURN.
  THE EARL OF MINTOin rising to call attention to the position and prospects of the question of reform of the Law of Teinds in Scotland; also to move for a
  "Return for each county in Scotland of the name of every parish in which an augmentation was made of ministers stipend and of allowances for communion elements respectively during the period that has elapsed since the 20th March 1876; also the name of each parish in which there are unexhausted teinds, and the amount applicable to the augmentation of ministers stipends, &c. in each such parish (in continuation of former Return, No. 242, 1876,")
  said, my Lords, I am always reluctant to occupy even a few minutes of your Lordships' time in this House; but the aban-
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  donment by Her Majesty's Government of a somewhat important Bill, under the pressure of strange influences, ought not, I think, to be passed over quite without notice. I shall not enter upon the general subject of Teind Law, and beg only to mention that Teind Law constitutes a part, and a very ugly part too, of the Land Laws of Scotland, and that in every transaction relating to the buying or selling of land careful investigations require to be made, sometimes with very uncertain results, relative to the state of the teinds on the property concerned, and in the parish in which it is situated. I must also mention that teinds, in the present signification of the words, is something very different from tithes, as formerly understood. In point of fact, there are no tithes in Scotland now, as they were commuted into a rent-charge about 250 years ago. The teinds of Scotland may now be concisely and correctly described as being that portion of the gross rental of Scotland which is appropriated to the payment of the stipends of parish ministers, or is liable at a future time to be so appropriated. In the early part of this Session Her Majesty's Ministers introduced a Bill called the Teinds (Scotland) Bill, which was read a second time some weeks later without opposition. The Bill sought to place on a clear and intelligible basis the liabilities of landed property in respect of teinds. It sought to place the relations of proprietors on the one hand and parish ministers on the other—namely, the payers and receivers of stipends—upon an easy and amicable footing. It sought to put an end to the expenses and litigation which the present law promotes, and almost necessitates. It sought to effect these objects by the drawing up of an inventory for the information of all concerned, as an authoritative exposition of the state of teinds in every parish of Scotland. The Bill was absolutely and carefully unpolitical in its character, and was totally unconnected with the question of Establishment or Disestablishment. Perhaps the best exposition of the purport and character of the measure is contained in the pointed note prefixed to the Teinds (Scotland) Bill, which I shall, therefore, read to the House—
  "The Bill has been prepared at the request of a number of landed proprietors representing the counties of Scotland. Its object is

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  to complete the valuation of the tithes of Scotland, and to make up a roll of tithes in each parish under judicial authority. The want of such a roll has been the cause of a great amount of litigation and uncertainty as to the extent of the liabilities of proprietors of estates to the Church. The Bill does not provide for commutation of tithes, nor does it increase or lessen the liability of owners, or shift the incidence of the burden of the tithes in any way. It is purely executive, and aims only at ascertaining the rights and liabilities of parties interested, according to the existing law, in a more summary and inexpensive manner than is possible under the existing statutory procedure."
  Now, I venture to assert that the only two classes of men who are directly interested in the simplification of the Teind Laws were virtually agreed in supporting the principle of this Bill. But it has always been said in Scotland that there is one powerful class—the Legal Profession—who are interested in maintaining the present system in consequence of the harvest of litigation that it engenders. But, in point of fact, the most zealous and most efficient Teind Law reformers are members of the Legal Profession of all grades—Judges, Sheriffs, agents, solicitors, are all of one mind in condemnation of the existing law. They feel it as a reproach to Scottish law that so barbarous a state of things, and so ruinous to their clients, should be suffered to continue. But if all these classes—heritors, ministers, and lawyers—unite in condemning the present Law of Teinds, to what influence is the obstruction due which has proved fatal to the Bill of the Lord Advocate? The answer is clear and simple. The influence which has been so efficacious was a purely sectarian one. The word has been passed from high sectarian authority that, in the interests of the question of Disestablishment, all legislation for the reform of the Teind Laws must be opposed at all hazards. The worse the condition of these laws, the greater will be the unpopularity of Church institutions, and the greater will be the popularity of an agitation for Disestablishment. Expensive litigation, and plenty of it, between heritors and ministers, and between heritors inter se, seems to be the aim and prayer of the enemies of the Church. The spirit which animates the opponents of all reform in the Law of Teinds may be seen in the following resolutions of the United Presbyterian Synod, agreed to on the 1lth July. They resolve—
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  "… That the working of the system of the Established Church, which is invariably wrong in principle, and its exactions in the matters of church and manse rates, augmentations of stipends and otherwise, have not been more offensive or injurious for a generation than they are at present; and that disestablishment, and nothing short of it, as the only legislative redress to the non-established churches and great body of citizens, and the sole remedy of the religious scandal, ought not to be delayed without urgent cause.… That they have learned of the withdrawal of this objectionable measure (the Teinds Bill) on the 4th July. That they have since heard with astonishment of a proposal of the Lord Advocate to re-introduce the Bill on an early day. That they resolve, in the event of an attempt to resuscitate the Bill, to take such steps as they see cause for its prevention, and for raising the whole question of disestablishment in connection with it."
  I think it is desirable that these things should be known and appreciated as regards the past; but I, for my part, would have passed them over in silence had it not been my belief that the same influences which have prevailed this Session against the cause of reform will operate with even greater force in future, as the time of a General Election approaches. I conclude by moving for the Returns of which I have given Notice.
  THE EARL OF DALHOUSIE: My Lords, every part of the noble Earl's statement, so far as my knowledge goes, is perfectly and entirely accurate. The Bill introduced into the other House of Parliament dealing with the subject of teinds is a useful measure, and well calculated to effect the object in view. In the discussion in the other House of Parliament, so far as I am aware, no successful attack was made on the principle of the measure. It was desired extremely by the landlords and clergy of Scotland, and it was opposed by those who are very zealous for the immediate or approximate Disestablishment of the Church of Scotland. The Bill was dropped in the other House in consequence of pressure of Business, and owing to the opposition it received from a certain section of the Liberal Party. There is no chance of that measure being introduced this Session, and I am not able to make any promise with regard to next Session. The matter is receiving the consideration of the Government; but they were unable to state when the matter could be dealt with. There is no objection to give the Return moved for.
  Motion agreed to.
  Address for—
  "Return for each county in Scotland of the name of every parish in which an augmentation was made of ministers stipend and of allowances for communion elements respectively during the period that has elapsed since the 20th March 1876; also the name of each parish in which there are unexhausted teinds, and the amount applicable to the augmentation of ministers stipend, &c. in each such parish (in continuation of former Return, No. 242, 1876."—(The Earl of Minto.)

PALACE OF WESTMINSTER—PUBLIC IMPROVEMENTS NEAR ST. MARGARET'S CHURCH.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD LAMINGTON LORD LAMINGTON, in rising to ask, Whether, before coming to any determination as to the comtemplated improvements near Saint Margaret's, Her Majesty's Government will consider how far it is desirable to carry out the recommendations of the Committee on Public Buildings of 1878? said, he had put this Question on the Paper, because he had seen in the public journals a statement that Her Majesty's Government intended to give the not very large sum of£l,000 towards the improvement of the ground near St. Margaret's Church, Westminster. The Metropolitan Board of Works, it was stated, would give another £1,000, and the Government intended to appeal to the public to subscribe the other £2,000 that would be required. He would not ask their Lordships to express an opinion as to whether this was a very dignified mode of proceeding to raise £4,000 for effecting improvements near the Houses of Parliament. At all events, the circumstance of the Government giving £1,000 indicated that they took an interest in the improvement of the ground in the vicinity of the Houses of Parliament. When he brought this question forward last year Her Majesty's Government said they were involved in so many wars that there was no money available for any improvement of the Metropolis. But now it was stated that owing to the policy of the Government there was profound peace in Afghanistan and South Africa; and, therefore, he took the present opportunity of asking the Government whether they meant to do anything in the way of giving effect to the recommendations of the Committee of 1878. In the opinion of that Committee, it would be economical to borrow £1,500,000. However, he would leave
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  that part of the Report alone, and would only ask whether Her Majesty's Government intended to take down the houses at the end of Parliament Street? The approach to the Houses of Parliament was now a disgrace to the country. Moreover, to leave it in its present state would lead to increased expenditure, as the Government would eventually have to pay more for the leases of the houses. The Government could very well afford to spend £200,000 in buying up the buildings, and they had better do it at once, because, in consequence of the policy which the Government had adopted, they might possibly be engaged in a new Transvaal War by this time next year. The improvement of a great Metropolis was a question worthy of the consideration of statesmen. The French, after paying some milliards of francs to the Germans, voted, in one year, £1,000,000 sterling for the improvement of Paris, and in Spain, the Government had lately expended £2,000,000 in the improvement of the capital. He trusted Her Majesty's Government would be able to hold out a hope that effect would soon be given to the recommendations of the Committee of 1878.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, that he never knew a time, since he had anything to do with public life, when this question was not under the consideration of statesmen. It was under the consideration of the Government of which he was formerly a Member; it was, doubtless, under the consideration of the late Government; and it was under the consideration of the present Government. Therefore, as far as the consideration of statesmen was concerned, his noble Friend had no reason to complain. He understood his noble Friend to argue that, as they were now in a state of profound peace, and were, consequently, relieved from a large war expenditure, this would be the proper time to spend some £2,000,000 on pub-lie buildings. He could assure his noble Friend that to embark in the scheme which had been recommended would be to ask for an expenditure that could not be counted by hundreds of thousands. The whole matter had always been one of very great difficulty. Individually, he did not like any more than his noble Friend to see the block of houses in Parliament Street; but, on

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  the other hand, there were a variety of matters to be determined before they were pulled down. The most important part of the whole subject was the convenience of the public offices. He was afraid lest his noble Friend should be dissatisfied with the only answer he was able to give him. That answer was that the subject was really under the earnest consideration of the Government, which would in a very short time, owing to the pressure from the War Office and the Admiralty for further accommodation, have to decide what scheme should be adopted for the extension of those Offices; and that, of course, would involve deciding whether to act on the recommendations of the Committee of 1878.

WATER SUPPLY (METROPOLIS).

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE BISHOP OF LONDON THE BISHOP OF LONDON, in rising to present a Petition from the National Health Society; and to ask, Whether any measures have been taken, or are in preparation, by Her Majesty's Government for improving the water supply of the Metropolis? said, that this question was one that very much affected the welfare of the Metropolis, and the Petition which he had presented expressed dissatisfaction at the continued delay in reference to legislation upon this subject. The injuries to health arose, in a great degree, from the intermittent supply of water over a great part of the Metropolis, by which water was wasted, spoiled by storage in dirty cisterns, and the basement of houses soaked and made unhealthy; and the Petitioners expressly drew attention to the excess of fires and consequent loss of life being a proved excess of two-thirds beyond the insurable rate in towns where there was a constant supply of water. He sympathized very much with the Petitioners, inasmuch as, from his experience as a London clergyman, he believed that an insufficient supply of water, such as existed in many parts of London, was injurious to the cleanliness, and, consequently, to the temperance, the morals, and, in the last resort, the religion of the population. The working classes living in the West of London were particularly ill-supplied. In the East of London a continuous supply of water was much more common than it was at the West End.
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  Their Lordships were probably not aware of what the habitations of the labouring classes were, especially in the Western part of London. In Westminster, Soho, and partially St. Pancras, labouring men and their families inhabited, for the most part, single rooms in houses of considerable size, that were built at the end of the 17th or the beginning of the 18th century, and were originally occupied by gentlemen; and the rent was about 5s. for each room. He had visited whole streets of such houses, going from house to house, and his experience was that water was only supplied to them for an hour or half an hour daily, and collected in a water butt in the basement, from which a large portion of it escaped, rendering the underground portion of the buildings damp and unhealthy. The families living in the different flats were obliged to carry all their water upstairs, and when a woman with a family and a baby had to go into the basement and fetch up every drop of water that was required, they might be sure that she would do with as little as possible. It was distressing to see how a family coming up from the country gradually deteriorated in their habits of cleanliness. Then, it was hardly necessary to say, a dirty room was but a poor counterbalance to the temptations of the public-house, and the water in a cistern which might not have been cleaned out for years was not a very inviting draught. All these facts were well known. Committee after Committee and Commission after Commission had sat on the subject; and it was agreed on all hands that the first step towards an improvement in the quality and in the distribution of water in the Metropolis was to consolidate the various agencies of supply. It was only some supreme power that could effect the necessary improvements by obtaining water from better sources, and supplying it in sufficient quantities. By giving a continuous supply, a great waste of water would be got rid of, and this should lead to a great reduction in the cost of supply. There would be a great saving also from the better means of extinguishing fires. No doubt, when negotiations were entered into with the Water Companies, the scheme prepared by the late Mr. Smith showed that a very large sum of money would be required for the purchase of the existing

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  works, and the Vestries became alarmed; the subject was reconsidered, and then it was decided against. Though, however, the cost would be very great, it should be borne in mind that the longer the scheme was deferred the greater would be the cost of carrying it out. In the last 10 years the population had increased by 560,000 in the districts affected by the Metropolitan water supply. The erection of houses was still enormously increasing. In Hammersmith and Fulham, for instance, it was computed that two houses were completed every day, and South of the Thames four were completed every day. According to the Registrar General, the chief increase in the population occurred in the outer circle of the town, the increase in that circumference having amounted to 50 per cent, while in the inner circle it had only been 10 per cent. This increase of the population, of course, necessitated an additional supply of water day by day, with additional machinery, mains, pipes, cisterns, &c. Now, the new works undertaken by the Water Companies were being erected upon exactly the same principles as those prevailing long ago, so that the defects of the old systems were being continued upon a vast scale. When, therefore, the matter should be taken in hand by the Government, not only would the cost have largely increased, but all the work lately done by the Companies would have to be undertaken de novo. All these circumstances pointed to the necessity of avoiding further delay. It was admitted that the valuable property of the Water Companies must be bought at a fair price. To ascertain what price should be given recourse might be had to arbitration. This initial step, he might add, could be taken without the intervention of an Act of Parliament. If the Government could assure the House that steps had been taken, or were about to be taken, to improve the water supply of the Metropolis, the announcement would be received with very great thankfulness and satisfaction by the large population of London, who were suffering through the present arrangements of our water supply in health, comfort, and morality.
  THE EARL OF DALHOUSIEsaid, he could assure the right rev. Prelate that the Government fully recognized the enormous importance of this question. It had been the intention of the Go-
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  vernment to introduce into Parliament this Session a Bill dealing with the question on the basis of the recommendations of the Select Committee of the House of Commons, which sat last year; but the state of Public Business had made it impossible for the Government to do so. Their Lordships would understand that in dealing with a matter of this kind, in which large pecuniary interests were involved, it would scarcely be prudent to proceed unless with some reasonable prospect of a successful and final issue. The Government hoped and expected to deal with the matter next year.
  EARL FORTESCUEsaid, he agreed with the right rev. Prelate that delay was most undesirable, and was of opinion that some of the recommendations of the Committee who had investigated the subject were of a nature to cause delay, should the Government determine to act upon them. He would urge the Government to proceed with this matter, as a large number of houses were constantly being erected, the population growing rapidly; and the costs resulting from the separate and independent action of the Water Companies in constructing mains and reservoirs would be much larger than if the works were done by one body under a uniform system. He thought that the Local Government Board, who could command the services of thoroughly competent engineers, might advantageously take the initiative, and begin at once to prepare for legislation. He could confirm what had been said as to the unsatisfactory water-butt and cistern arrangements in very many houses which were let out in tenements, and there could be no doubt whatever that it was most desirable that there should be a constant supply of water. By various Acts of Parliament the Companies, if required, were bound to furnish a constant supply; but, owing to the want of unanimity and co-operation among householders, the cases were very rare where a constant supply was obtained. The question was one of the highest importance, both as regarded sanitary matters, fire, and intemperance, which was largely increased by the want of pure water.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)said, he desired to point out that if any nuisance existed in consequence of a short supply of water,

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  the sanitary authorities of the district could take cognizance of it. In many cases the owners of houses did not take proper care that the occupiers obtained a supply of water. The Companies were bound to supply water, and if they did not the sanitary authorities should interfere and compel them to do so. The condition of the cisterns was also a matter for the sanitary authorities, and did not concern the Water Companies, who were frequently blamed indiscriminately for things for which they were not responsible.

TURKEY—MIDHAT PASHA—FULFILMENT OF SENTENCE.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD STRATHEDEN AND CAMPBELL LORD STRATHEDEN AND CAMPBELL, in rising to ask the Government, Whether their influence at Constantinople is being exercised to arrest proceedings in the case of Midhat Pasha? said, he hoped that in the absence—which he regretted—of the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, some Member of the Government would be able to give an answer to his Question. No doubt all the Members of the Government knew what answer to give, because the Prime Minister really decided these matters, and his Colleagues must be in possession of his views. The fate of Midhat Pasha was a question in which the people of this country took great interest. There was no doubt that he had not had a fair trial, and obstacles were put in the way of his defending himself. There was little doubt that Abdul Aziz had put an end to his own life; and he thought that the public law of Europe, about which so much had been said of late years, should be put in motion on his behalf. It might be said that public law would be an obstacle to exercising influence to arrest proceedings in the case; but if that were so, public law had been set at nought by every Ambassador whom the Queen had employed at Constantinople recently.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, he regretted the course which the noble Lord had taken, as damaging to his consistency, since he usually respected the Law of Nations; but now he asked the Government to do something which was quite contrary to it. He was not only asking them to obtain a commutation of the sentence passed on Midhat
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  Pasha, but to arrest proceedings. A month ago the noble Lord intimated that the Foreign Secretary had not the control of the Foreign Office, but that the Prime Minister had; and the Prime Minister had stated in "another place" that this was a case in which the Government had not the right to interfere. The noble Lord should have been satisfied with that answer. When Midhat Pasha was Grand Vizier he was responsible for what was going on at Constantinople; and after the time that Sultan Abdul Aziz Khan's death took place he did not institute any inquiry into any of the circumstances that had surrounded it. No doubt, it was unfortunate that in the recent trial the Ottoman Government had adopted European forms; and it would have been better if the Turkish Government had followed their own forms of trial in this case. However, he had no doubt that substantial justice had been done to Midhat Pasha. The present Question was, moreover, unnecessary, because the sentence had already been commuted, and Midhat Pasha was going into a healthy climate where there need be no fear on account of his health. Midhat Pasha was a good administrator in Bulgaria, but he had been too much praised for what he had done; and, on the whole, he was an ignorant rather than a learned man. However, in Midhat Pasha's present situation, he would rather not make further observations upon his administration of affairs. There was no ground for any alarm in regard to the country to which he was banished.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he was sorry that his noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs was not present to answer the Question of the noble Lord. As to the actual form of the Question, he agreed with his noble Friend opposite (Lord Stanley of Alderley) that it would be an extraordinary interference on the part of one Government to exercise its influence upon another in order to arrest proceedings which the latter had thought it necessary to take in regard to an accusation against a subject of that Government. But probably his noble Friend desired to know what course had been taken by Her Majesty's Government in the whole matter; and what he had to say was that in a question of so much delicacy, involving the internal government of the Porte, and touching

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  the Sultan himself, Her Majesty's Government had not thought that it would be desirable to exercise any direct advice or interference; but feeling, as they did, an interest in this matter, they had been able, through Lord Dufferin, in a perfectly private and unofficial manner, to express their wish that it might be the pleasure of the Sultan to deal with this matter in a merciful spirit. He was not in a position to state that it had been officially notified that the sentence passed upon the incriminated Pashas had been commuted; but he had good reason to believe that the statement in the newspapers alluded to, that the sentence had been commuted to banishment to Arabia, was true.

  LAND LAW (IRELAND) BILL.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYintimated that the Land Law (Ireland) Bill was expected from the other House in a few minutes.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: If I may ask a question about a Bill which is not yet before the House, I should like to know whether the Bill will be printed and circulated to-morrow. It would be a great convenience.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he was not certain, but he thought it might be circulated to-morrow evening.
  House adjourned during pleasure.
  House resumed at Eleven o'clock.
  The Lord THURLOW—Chosen Speaker in the absence of the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Commissioner.

  LAND LAW (IRELAND) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read la; to be printed; and to be read 2a on Monday next: (The Lord Privy Seal). (No. 187.)

  LEASES FOR SCHOOLS (IRELAND) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to facilitate leases of land for the erection thereon of schools and buildings for the promotion of public education in Ireland—Was presented by The Lord O'HAGAN; read 1a. (No. 188.)
  House adjourned at Eleven o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.