Lords Sitting of 26 July 1881

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Report—Law relating to the Protection of Young Girls.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Removal Terms (Scotland)* (184).
Second Reading—Industrial Schools (158); British Honduras (Court of Appeal) (167); Pedlars (Certificates)*(163); Metallic Mines (Gunpowder) (169); Seed Supply and other Acts (Ireland) Amendment (177).
Committee—Universities (Scotland) Registration of Parliamentary Voters, &c.* (173).
Committee—Report—Coroners (Ireland) (134); Reformatory Institutions (Ireland) * (172).

INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS BILL.
(The Lord Norton.)
INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS BILL.

  (NO. 158.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD NORTON, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said,

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  he would not repeat his advocacy of such a measure in a previous debate, but only argue for this stage of Bill, which embodied his proposals, that it was mainly, and in principle, a consolidation of all the many Acts which had accumulated on the subject during 30 years of experimental legislation, and that it would clear the law and settle the question on the system which had practically worked out itself. There could hardly be any doubt of the desirableness and opportuneness of such a consolidation. He would, therefore, merely point out that the Amendments of the law which the Bill proposed, though they were the obvious conclusions from our experience, and most important and necessary to complete the work, were not essential to the Bill; but if they were omitted, the Bill would only be so far less useful without them. For instance, the Bill proposed to get rid of the distinction, which only existed in name, between industrial schools and reformatory schools, and to call the two schools, which had worked into one, by the same name—industrial schools. They could really be nothing else. But the children who came into such schools at a more advanced age—say 14—were proposed to be put into separate industrial schools, to be called "Senior Industrial Schools," and not mixed up with younger children in the same schools as at present. But if Parliament should unfortunately prefer designating this most important, because most neglected, part of all our professed undertaking of national education as prolonged punishment and penal discipline, they might still continue to call their schools "reformatories," and the Bill would only lose one of its proposed improvements, and would still retain the acknowledged good of separating older children into only as few reformatories as might be specially required for them. He trusted, however, that Parliament would no longer insist upon using the penal term; for, if they did so, these children would still be deprived when they went out from industrial schools of the employment for which they were there trained, whether in the Army and Navy, or in many kinds of private employment. They would go out from school stigmatized as educated criminals in their own and in others' estimation. Such would be the
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  consequence of retaining a name for these particular schools, which, after all, could entail no real difference of treatment from other industrial schools. The other chief Amendment proposed in the Bill was the placing industrial schools under the Education Department, leaving the penal treatment only of criminal children to the Police Department of Government, and placing their education after punishment in the hands of those intrusted with the subject. He thought that the Education Department should not be let to despise this lower class of work, in the present ambition of our public educationists to give more attention to higher education. It seemed a strange argument for separating any subject from its Department that the Department was not suited to it, and the misplacement of any public administration generally ended in the diversion of the subject itself. Houses of Correction were so turned from places intended for industrial training into prisons, and in the same way the Colonial Office was once mixed up with that of War, till it was wittily but truly called an office at war with all the Colonies. The Industrial Schools Office in Delahay Street would find itself in better connection with the Education than the Police Department, with which it should have nothing to do, if its special object was education. However, if Parliament preferred the industrial schools' part of its Educational Estimates, including even day industrial schools, to be separated, and put out of sight on the Home Office account, the Secretary of State must keep his strange impersonation of Education Minister in this consolidating Bill, which would be only so far less amending. It took some time for Parliament to admit at all that criminal children had better be punished as children; and he hoped it would not take much longer for them to take in the rest of the idea, that, after punishment, what such children wanted was not prolonged criminal treatment, but education. He moved the second reading of the Bill.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Norton.)
  THE EARL OF DALHOUSIE: My Lords, the deep interest which the noble Lord opposite (Lord Norton) has taken in this important subject is well known to your Lordships, and it is also fully

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  recognized by Her Majesty's Government. And I can assure him, on behalf of the Government, that the observations and suggestions which, on a former occasion, he made to your Lordships in reference to this matter were most carefully considered, both by the Secretary of State himself and those who assist him in the consideration of questions of this kind. And if the Resolution which the noble Lord then moved was not accepted by the Government, I am yet able distinctly to say that it by no means followed that nothing was gained by it. At that time the Government were not without hopes that they might be able to introduce a measure dealing with reformatories and industrial schools, and they were consequently not willing to accept a Resolution which might seem to pledge them to a particular method of doing so, the principle of which they did not approve. This Bill is clearly drawn on the lines of that Resolution; and it may be argued that, having refused to concur in the noble Lord's Resolution, the Government are logically bound to reject his Bill, which is based upon it. But, in the first place, it is obvious that the Government can no longer hope, as they once did, to take up the question of reformatory and industrial schools during the present Session of Parliament; and they are very anxious that the whole subject of the working of the reformatory and industrial school system should be brought prominently forward, so that public opinion may have an opportunity of expressing itself upon it. For there is no question which affects so powerfully, for good or for evil, those classes which, according as we deal with them wisely or not, will become a source of strength or a source of danger to society in the immediate future. To legislate on a wrong principle would, undoubtedly, at no distant date, produce very serious consequences; and the Government are, therefore, most anxious to proceed with caution, all the more so, because they feel that although the present system of reformatory and industrial schools may stand in need of revision, it has, nevertheless, done good work in checking an evil which, 20 years ago, had assumed alarming proportions. On that ground Her Majesty's Government think it extremely desirable that they should take every opportunity of encouraging the
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  discussion of this question, in the hope that public attention may be drawn to it. I gather from the speech of the noble Lord, as well as from the Bill itself, that its main object is to consolidate the Acts relating to reformatory and industrial schools, and that is an object at which Her Majesty's Government desire to arrive quite as earnestly as the noble Lord himself; and they are anxious, if possible, to give him a practical assurance of their sincerity in that respect. If, as I understand, the noble Lord does not intend to advance this Bill beyond the second reading, it would be possible for the Government to do this. But if he intends to go further than the second reading, I must point out that Clauses 4 and 7, and all subsequent clauses depending on them, are entirely opposed to the views which are entertained by Her Majesty's Government on this question—and that, as these clauses form a very important part of the measure, the Government could not possibly give their assent to the second reading of the Bill, except on the understanding that it does not go beyond that stage. The Government, as I have already said, are very sensible of the importance of the whole question; and, in regard to the Bill now before your Lordships, I have to say that, understanding from the noble Lord that it is not his intention to carry this Bill beyond the second reading, and seeing that there is now no prospect of the Government being able to realize the hope in which at an earlier period of the Session they indulged, that they would themselves be able to deal with this question; seeing, also, that it is most important that this question should be kept constantly before the attention of the public and that it should be fully discussed both in the Press and by those who are chiefly and most immediately interested in the reformatory and industrial school system, the Government will not oppose the second reading of the Bill. But, in saying that, I must repeat that I do not mean to imply that the Government approve of all the provisions contained in it. And I must distinctly state that, in assenting to the second reading of the Bill, the Government merely accept and affirm the principle that it is desirable that the various Acts of Parliament which relate to reformatory and industrial schools ought to be revised

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  and consolidated at the earliest opportunity; but that they must not be understood to stand committed to those provivisions in the Bill by which the noble Lord proposes to arrive at that result.
  LORD HOUGHTONsaid, he deeply regretted that the Government had given even a qualified sanction to the measure. His noble Friend (Lord Norton) and he had long agreed to differ in opinion as to this great reformatory movement. The existing systems in use in those establishments had been eminently successful in repressing juvenile crime, and he should be extremely sorry that any censure should be thrown upon them such as might be inferred from the present action of the Government. Those two systems were essentially different in themselves, and must remain so if they were to carry out satisfactorily the objects which they had in view. He trusted, therefore, that nothing would be done which would interfere with institutions which had proved so useful in training that class of children for whose benefit they were promoted originally. If the action of the Government were intended as a compliment to his noble Friend on account of the great attention he had given to this subject, he (Lord Houghton) could not regret the course which had been taken; but he hoped it would not be interpreted as meaning anything more.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a.

BRITISH HONDURAS (COURT OF APPEAL) BILL.
(The Earl of Kimberley.)
BRITISH HONDURAS (COURT OF APPEAL) BILL.

  (NO. 167.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, explained that its object was to allow appeals to be made from Honduras, where there was only a single Judge, to the Court at Jamaica. It would be well if there were a Court of Appeal not far off, and the Honduras Legislature asked that such an appeal should be provided; and he had no doubt that this Bill would work advantageously.
  Moved,"That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl of Kimberley.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

PEDLARS (CERTIFICATES) BILL.
(The Earl of Dalhousie.)
PEDLARS (CERTIFICATES) BILL.

  (NO. 163.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE EARL OF DALHOUSIE, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said that its purpose was to get rid of the necessity imposed upon pedlars of having their licences visaed on passing from one police district to another. A charge of 6d. was made for the visa; but the objection to the system was that it inflicted inconvenience and hardship upon a respectable body of men.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."(The Earl of Dalhousie.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

METALLIC MINES (GUNPOWDER) BILL.
(The Earl of Dalhousie.)
METALLIC MINES (GUNPOWDER) BILL.

  (NO. 169.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE EARL OF DALHOUSIE, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, it proposed to withdraw from the operation of the Coal Mines Regulation Act certain metalliferous mines, and to empower the Secretary of State to allow the use of loose gunpowder in those mines.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl of Dalhousie.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

CORONERS (IRELAND) BILL.—(No. 134.)
(The Viscount Lifford.)
CORONERS (IRELAND) BILL.—(No. 134.)

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to order).
  Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.
  Clause 3 (Remuneration of Coroner).
  THE EARL OF LIMERICKsaid, he desired to move an Amendment in the

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  clause, the object of which was to give power to increase the salaries given to Coroners from time to time. The principle of the clause as it now stood was to fix salaries in perpetuity; and he did not think that it was desirable that such a course should be adopted, but that there should be a power in some authority to revise them. His Amendment would amount to giving a power of revision to some authority, instead of fixing the salaries on the amount of fees and allowances which the Coroners were entitled to receive. He did not wish to interfere with the progress of the Bill, but desired simply to bring this matter under the attention of Her Majesty's Government, as he felt strongly that there should be some power of revising these salaries.
  Amendment moved, in page 2, line 3, after ("coroner"), to insert ("in office on the passing of this Act.")—(The Earl of Limerick.)
  THE EARL OF CORKsaid, he thought there was a great deal in what the noble Earl (the Earl of Limerick) had said with respect to the necessity of having some power of revising the salaries of Coroners from time to time, and he believed that a power to make such revision existed in England and was vested in the Magistrates. The Amendment, however, proposed by the noble Earl proposed that the power should be vested in the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. He (the Earl of Cork) believed that the Lord Lieutenant had no power to interfere with the local taxation in Ireland, and, therefore, it would not be proper to invest such a power in the Lord Lieutenant. If the noble Earl would withdraw the Amendment, he would consider whether he could not bring up an Amendment at the next stage of the Bill to meet the object sought to be attained by the present Amendment.
  THE EARL OF LIMERICKsaid, he was quite satisfied with the promise of the noble Earl, and would withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
  Remaining clauses agreed to.
  Bill reported without Amendment; and to be read 3a on Thursday next.

SEED SUPPLY AND OTHER ACTS (IRE LAND) AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 177.)
(The Lord Carlingford.)
SEED SUPPLY AND OTHER ACTS (IRE LAND) AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 177.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD CARLINGFORD, in moving that the Bill be now road a second time, said that its object was to give the Irish Boards of Guardians a longer time for the collection of what were called seed rates—that was, for the payment by the purchasers of seed to the Boards of Guardians, and the repayments by the Boards of Guardians of the instalments to the Treasury. The main purpose of the Bill was to spread such instalments over a longer period of time—an indulgence that was much needed. There was one other object of the Bill, which was to enable the Board of Works, on the recommendation of the Local Government Board, to give further time to distressed Unions in Ireland in which extra out-door relief had been sanctioned by the Local Government Board. These were objects not only much desired, but much needed; and it was requisite that the Bill should be made law as soon as possible, in order to regulate the transactions of the Treasury with those Boards.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Carlingford.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.