Lords Sitting of 18 July 1881

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Committee—Wild Birds Protection Act, 1880, Amendment (118–166); Burial Grounds (Scotland) Act (1855) Amendment* (131); Sale and Use of Poisons* (159), discharged.
Committee—Report—Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 2)* (126).
Third Reading—Commons Regulation (Shenfield) Provisional Order* (132); Alsager Chapel (Marriages)* (153), and passed.
Royal Assent—Newspapers [44 & 45 Vict. c. 19]; Married Women's Property (Scotland) [44 & 45 Vict. c. 21]; Post Office (Land) [44 & 45 Vict. c. 20]; Bankruptcy and Cessio (Scotland) [44 & 45 Vict. c. 22]; Court of Bankruptcy (Ireland) (Officers and Clerks) [44 & 45 Vict. c. 23]; Summary Jurisdiction (Process) [44 & 45 Vict. c. 24]; Local Government Provisional Orders (Askern, &c.) [44 & 45 Vict. c. xcviii]; Local Government Provisional Orders (Horfield, &c.) [44 & 45 Vict. c. xcix]; Inclosure Provisional Orders (Thurstaston Common) [44 & 45 Vict. c. c]; Land Drainage Provisional Orders [44 & 45 Vict. c. ci]; Local Government Provisional Orders (Birmingham, Tame, and Rea, &c.) [44 & 45 Vict. c. cii]; Gas Provisional Order [44 & 45 Vict.c. ciii]; Pier and Harbour Orders Confirmation [44 & 45 Vict. civ]; Tramways Orders Confirmation (No. 1) [44 & 45 Vict. c. cv].

RAILWAYS—CONTINUOUS BRAKES.

  OBSERVATIONS. QUESTION.
  EARL DE LA WARR, in rising to call attention to the Parliamentary Return ending 31st December 1880, relative to railway continuous brakes;
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  and to ask, Whether Her Majesty's Government propose to take any steps to enforce the regulations of the Board of Trade? said, the subject was one that had lately attracted much attention, and he should not have brought it forward again but for the unsatisfactory nature of the Returns just issued. It would be remembered that in 1878 an Act was passed that made it compulsory for Railway Companies to send in Returns every six months specifying the kind of brakes used by them, and the number of carriages and engines fitted with brakes, with other particulars on the subject. Previously to this the Board of Trade had made a very careful investigation into the question of railway brakes, acting in accordance with the recommendation of the Railway Accidents Commission; and in 1877 a Circular was issued by the Board, which referred to the little progress which had been made by the Companies even in—
  "The first step of agreeing upon what are the requirements which in their opinion are essential to a good continuous brake."
  The Circular then proceeded to specify certain conditions or requirements for an efficient brake, which were these—
  "The brakes to be efficient in stopping trains, instantaneous in their action, and capable of being applied without difficulty by engine-drivers or guards.
  "In case of accidents to be instantaneously self-acting.
  "The brakes to be put on and taken off with facility on the engine, and every vehicle in the train.
  "The brakes to be regularly used in daily working.
  "The materials employed to be of a durable character, so as to be easily maintained and kept in order."
  Such were the conditions laid down by the Board of Trade as indispensable for an efficient brake. This took place in 1877. It was then added in this Circular—
  "There can be no reason for further delay, and the Board of Trade feel it their duty again to urge upon the Railway Companies the necessity for arriving at an immediate decision and united action in the matter."
  But what had been done? These Returns of the Railway Companies had been carefully and periodically made; but he regretted to say that they showed comparatively but little progress. It was true there were some of the

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  large Companies which were conspicuous for the good example they had set. The Brighton and South Coast Railway, among these, were successfully employing efficient continuous brakes—the Westinghouse—throughout their system. He might also mention the North-Eastern, the Great Western, and the Midland Companies, as taking active steps to comply with the requirements of the Board of Trade; also the Glasgow and South Western and North British, in Scotland. But if they looked to the general result, as shown by the last Return to the 31st of December, 1880, they would arrive at a very unsatisfactory conclusion, which was this—that of the 61 English Companies, there were only 10 which had in use any brakes that fully complied with the requirements of the Board of Trade; of the eight Scotch Companies five so complied, but of the 21 Irish Companies, not one complied. Thus, of the 90 Companies of the United Kingdom, there were only 15 who had complied to some extent with the requirements of the Board of Trade. But from these 15 must be deducted those whose compliance was little more than a matter of form, running only a few trains with continuous brakes, as if only to show by the Returns that they were giving them a trial. Among these were the Great Northern, the Lancashire and Yorkshire, the Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire, the London and South-Western, the London, Chatham, and Dover—all of them important lines. Thus, as appeared by the Return, the Great Northern had only four engines and 35 carriages fitted with brakes as required by the Board of Trade; the London, Chatham, and Dover had only six engines and 31 carriages so fitted; the South-Western had only two engines and 10 carriages so fitted. It furthur appeared that the London and North-Western, one of the most important lines, had from the first made no attempt to adopt a brake as recommended by the Board of Trade, and were now compelled to admit that the brake which they had been using was a failure. Upon the whole it would appear that there were only about seven Companies out of 90 who were actively carrying out the recommendations of the Board of Trade, and the number of passenger carriages so fitted with continuous brakes amounted to 11 per cent of the
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  passenger carriages in the United Kingdom. He thought, therefore, there was but one conclusion at which they could arrive, which was that the repeated warnings and recommendations of the Board of Trade had hitherto failed to produce any real effect upon the great bulk of Railway Companies in the United Kingdom with reference to the use of continuous brakes. These facts would bear him out in the appeal which he wished to make to Her Majesty's Government as to the course which they intended to pursue. There were differences of opinion as to what was the best kind of brake, and this was not a matter which could be discussed with advantage in their Lordships' House. It was a matter which Railway Companies ought themselves to decide as they had the means and opportunities of doing so; but he would urge that the time was come when some decision ought to be arrived at, either individually or collectively, by Railway Companies, that an efficient brake in accordance with admitted principles of construction should be adopted. The question had been much considered, and many eminent engineers and others had expressed their opinions with regard to it. He believed there was not one of them who would not say that efficient railway brakes were essential, not only on the ground of utility, but also for the actual safety of the public. Railway Companies deserved praise for the manner in which their lines were conducted generally; but with regard to the mechanical appliances to which he had drawn attention, they ought, he held, to bestir themselves. Voluntary action on their part would be preferable to Parliamentary interference. The noble Earl concluded by asking, Whether the Government proposed to take any steps to enforce the regulations of the Board of Trade, and whether they would lay on the Table of the House a Copy of any Correspondence between that Department and the Railway Companies?
  LORD SUDELEYsaid, he would not attempt to follow the noble Earl through his detailed analysis of the Return; but he thought it would, perhaps, have been fairer not merely to have stated that only seven out of 90 Companies were carrying out the recommendations of the Board of Trade, but to have shown the number of carriages and engines

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  fitted with continuous brakes. An examination of the Returns relating to continuous brakes on railway trains showed that 1,645 engines and 17,654 carriages used in passenger trains were so fitted on the 31st of December, 1880; or, in other words, that of the entire stock used in passenger traffic 33 per cent of the engines and 41 per cent of the carriages were fitted with continuous brakes, and that 10 per cent of such fittings were effected during the year 1880. Although some of the Companies had wholly and others partially adopted a brake which fully complied with the conditions specified in the Schedule to the Railway Returns (Continuous Brakes) Act, 1878, yet others, and notably one of the largest Companies, used brakes which did not fulfil the suggestions contained in the Board of Trade Circular of 1877 with regard to continuous brakes. The Board of Trade had been in communication with the London and North-Western Railway Company, who up to the present time had not adopted a continuous brake, but used a sectional brake. They were informed by that Company that the chairman (Mr. Moon) had a meeting with several of the chairmen of the largest Railway Companies, and the result of that interview was that directions were given to the locomotive superintendent of the London and North-Western Railway to consult with the locomotive superintendents of some of the other Lines in the matter. The first question to which that committee devoted itself, as shown in a letter from Mr. Webb, the locomotive superintendent of the London and North-Western Railway, of the 10th of March last, was to obtain a standard coupling which would make it possible for the carriages of one Company to interchange with the carriages of another Company, whatever continuous air-brake they might have adopted. In the opinion of the London and North-Western Railway Company, an universal coupling was the principal thing to be brought about to insure the interchangeability of stock. The Board of Trade were informed that when the question of this coupling should have been arranged, there was every reason to believe that the London and North-Western Railway Company would see their way to adopting a continuous air-brake of some description. Although the Company were
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  not in a position to give any pledge on the subject, yet the negotiations were being actively pressed forward, and there was reason to hope that before many months should have passed a great stride would have taken place with regard to the use of continuous brakes all over the United Kingdom. In these circumstances, and while fully recognizing the necessity for continuous brakes for providing for the safety of the travelling public, the Board of Trade did not think it desirable at the present moment to take any further steps in the matter. The inquiries into the accidents of the last few months had again shown that many of them might have been mitigated, if not altogether prevented, had continuous brakes been adopted; and that fact, combined with the pressure of public opinion, and with the fact that the Board of Trade were urging on the Companies to allow no delay in the matter, would, it was hoped, bring about the end which the noble Lord bad in view, and would prevent the necessity of any further legislation in the matter.
  LORD COLVILLE OF CULROSSsaid, he thought that the noble Earl (Earl De La Warr) had gone out of his way in complaining of the Great Northern Railway Company, as instead of that Company having done less than any other in England, it had, in his opinion, done more to fulfil the wishes of the noble Earl than any other Company. Ninety per cent of their carriages were fitted with continuous brakes. A few weeks ago 12 railway engineers, representing the London and North-Western Railway, the Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire Railway, the Great Northern Railway, the South-Eastern Railway, the Great Southern and Western Railway (Ireland), the London, Chatham, and Dover Railway, the London and South-Western Railway, the Midland Railway, the Great Western Railway, the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway, and the Metropolitan Railway, had met to consider the question of continuous brakes, and their expressed impression was that the simple vacuum brake became spoilt when converted into an automatic brake. Vacuum brakes, however, could be made automatic at an expense of £10 in the case of an engine and of £5 in the case of a carriage. The London and North-Western Railway Company had given

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  up the chain brake, and, like the other Companies, were going to adopt the simple vacuum brake.
  LORD HOUGHTON, speaking on behalf of Railway Companies with which he was connected, said, they greatly appreciated the manner in which the Board of Trade had exercised its powers. Had those powers been enforced with pragmatic severity, the cause of railway science would have suffered seriously. He submitted that they had every reason to be satisfied with the progress which had been already made in the use of continuous brakes, and in the case of the Company with which he was chiefly connected, everything desired by the noble Earl opposite would soon be carried into effect.
  LORD NORTONobserved that, though 90 per cent of railway carriages might be now fitted with continuous brakes, the question was rather what number of Railway Companies might have adopted those improvements; and it would be but small satisfaction to people living on lines where the insecure 10 per cent of carriages were used, to know that in other parts of the Kingdom the lives of travellers were in less danger. He thought the noble Earl opposite (Earl De La Warr) was incorrect in stating that the Act of 1878 prescribed any particular form of brake. On the contrary, the Board of Trade had wisely abstained from doing so. Its Circular, issued in 1877, called upon the Railway Companies to state what brakes they used, in order to bring the subject before the public; but it had not directed the use of any one brake lest it should take upon Government a dangerous responsibility, and practically preclude the adoption of mechanical improvements. The Westinghouse brake, which was generally considered the best at that time, had been already improved upon three or four times. Nor was it the case that the Board had laid it down imperatively that brakes should be continuous and automatic, though five specific qualities were declared in their opinion to be required, a deficiency in any of which would entail a heavy responsibility on the Company in the event of an accident by collision. The progress made in brakes might be slow; but he thought, on the whole, that any imperative Parliamentary action would make it slower. All that could be done
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  was to call the attention of the public to the subject, require annual statements of what was being done to be published, and leave the Companies to find out the best brake to be used.

MILLS AND FACTORIES (INDIA)— LEGISLATION.—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYasked the Under Secretary for India, Whether any Bill for the regulation of labour in mills and factories in India has been brought in by the Supreme Government?
VISCOUNT ENFIELD, in reply, said, that an Act to regulate labour in factories had been passed, and had received the assent of the Governor General on the 15th of April this year. It applied to the whole of British India, and was compulsory therein. Its chief provisions were—the determination of the age of children employed, seven years being the minimum; the limitation of the hours of employment to nine hours, with one hour's interval of rest; the prohibition of the employment of children on certain dangerous work; the fencing of dangerous machinery; the reporting of accidents, and the appointment of Government Inspectors. While, however, the Act applied to the whole of British India, some discretion was left to local Governments to make their own rules regarding the fencing of dangerous machinery, ventilation, inspection, hearing of appeals, sanitary, and minor matters. The Act regulated Crown Factories, except in certain emergencies; but indigo factories and tea and coffee plantations were exempt. He might add that the restrictions on the hours of labour applied to children only.

WILD BIRDS PROTECTION ACT, 1880, AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 118.)
(The Earl of Dalhousie.)
WILD BIRDS PROTECTION ACT, 1880, AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 118.)

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Clause 1 (Amendment of s. 3 of 43 & 44 Vic. c. 35).
  On the Motion of Lord ABERDARE, Amendments made, in page 1, line 23, by leaving out ("or taken"); line 25, by leaving out ("or taking"); line 27, by leaving out ("or taken"); by leaving out lines 28 and 29.
  LORD WALSINGHAM, in moving, in page 1, line 18, after ("repealed")

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  to insert ("save and except any wild bird named in the schedule annexed unto the said Act"); and after line 29, to insert:—
  "(3.) Provided always, that the present Act shall not apply to any wild bird named in the schedule annexed unto the Wild Birds Protection Act, 1880,"
  said, that if the Act passed in its present shape it would be practically doing away with all protection to wild birds, and particularly wild duck, snipes, and plovers. His Amendments would leave to owners and occupiers of land the right to dispose of such birds as they had now a right to kill on their own ground, such as rooks, pigeons, and so forth; but they would tend to maintain the protection extended to wild fowl and other birds named in the schedule of the Act of 1880.
  EARL DE LA WARRsaid, he understood the noble Earl to say that foreign wild birds could be sold under the Act unless it was amended, and that would open the door to selling native birds.
  THE EARL OF ABERDEENsaid, he agreed that unless some Amendment of this kind were made the Act might be evaded and the birds left unprotected.
  Amendment agreed to.
  The Report of the Amendments to be received To-morrow; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 166.)

ROYAL UNIVERSITY OF IRELAND— THE SCHEME OF THE SENATE.

  QUESTION.
  EARL CAIRNS, who had the following Notice on the Paper:—
  "To ask Her Majesty's Government Whether the scheme for the organization of the Royal University, Ireland, has been presented to this House, and, if so, why it has not been printed; and whether, before any Bill is introduced affecting the surplus funds of the Irish Church an estimate will be laid before Parliament of the amount which will be appropriated for the Royal Irish University, showing the expenditure estimated under separate heads? "
  said, since he had given Notice of this Question, he had ascertained that the scheme for the organization of the Royal University was presented by the Senate to this House in the last Parliament; and that, although it was not printed at the time, copies had been supplied to the House since then. He would, therefore, confine his Question to the latter
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  part of the Notice. What he wanted to ask the Government was this—a scheme had been prepared and money would be required to work it. No statement had been made as to the amount which would be appropriated. He should like to ask whether the Government could produce any estimate of the amount of money which would be required to carry out the proposed scheme?
  LORD CARLINGFORDsaid, before answering the Question of the noble and learned Earl, he should like to say one word about the nature of the scheme. It did not appear, as he understood it, that the scheme had any binding force whatever upon anyone. He did not understand that the scheme had any legislative character whatever. It was, of course, of great importance on account of the information which it conveyed to the Government and to Parliament, but no legislative power was contained in the scheme. It was possible that the germ of legislation would be found in it; but the matter must come before Parliament in the shape of statutes, rules, and orders, which would be made by the Senate of the University as soon as they were aware of the means which would be at their disposal; and, under the Act of Parliament of 1879 and under the Charter, these rules and orders, before they had any validity, would require the Royal Assent under the Sign Manual, and would have to be laid before both Houses of Parliament. Thus by the provisions of the Act of Parliament and the Charter, both the Government and Parliament would have very ample means of control over the action of the University. If, indeed, the scheme had anything in it essentially objectionable, or if the Senate of the University had violated the conditions laid down in the Act of 1879, it would before now have been the duty of Her Majesty's Government to make objections, and the Senate would have no power of revising the scheme or of presenting a new scheme; but, as a matter of fact, Her Majesty's Government had not found it necessary to make any objections of the kind. All that could be said against the scheme, he thought, was that there was, perhaps, a certain amount of largeness in it, an apparent want of limit, which, it might be, would require some notice and control on the part of the Government. He thought

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  the noble and learned Earl did not need to have much occasion for alarm, because the Government and Parliament had control over the rules and orders which might be hereafter made with respect to the standard of examination; and if that standard was not sufficiently high it would not be accepted. The prizes would depend upon the standard to be selected, and the standard would be included in the rules and orders. The Government would shortly be prepared to lay before Parliament, both in their Lordships' House and in the House of Commons, a communication with the Royal University, stating the sum which the Government would propose to Parliament as sufficient for the University, and expressing the views of the Government upon the scheme and the allocation of the funds. At the same time, he would say that he thought it would not be well to pledge the Government as to details in a matter of this kind. He thought that the document which he should shortly be able to lay before Parliament would plainly show what was the opinion of the Government on the subject, and he believed it would satisfy the noble and learned Earl and others who felt interested in the matter.
  EARL CAIRNSsaid, he quite agreed with the noble Lord that the scheme communicated by the Senate had no binding effect of itself; but, of course, if the Government were to present that scheme to Parliament, and to accompany it with a request that Parliament would provide out of the Church Surplus, or any other fund, a certain amount of money to give effect to that scheme, that would, of course, be an endorsement, in the first place, by Her Majesty's Government, and, in the second place, by Parliament, of the scheme of the Senate. If the Government were able to lay the communication on the Table, it would be so far satisfactory.
  LORD CARLINGFORDsaid, that was what he understood. The Government and Parliament would be perfectly free to deal with the rules and orders of the University when they came before them.
  LORD EMLYsaid, he had put a Question the other evening to his noble Friend the Lord Privy Seal as to whether the Government would undertake to put the Senate of the Royal Irish University in a position to hold their matriculation examination during the present year.
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  His noble Friend stated that the Government would do so; but he thought there was some misapprehension out-of-doors on the subject. He would be much obliged if his noble Friend would now repeat the statement he made the other evening.
  LORD CARLINGFORDsaid, he was not aware how there could be any doubt about his words. He had said that it was the intention of the Government within a very short time to bring in a Bill for the purpose of simply charging an annual sum on the Irish Church Fund for the Royal Irish University.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, Eleven o'clock.