Lords Sitting of 15 July 1881

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Sale and Use of Poisons* (159); Erne Lough and River* (149).
Committee—Report—Commons Regulation (Shenfield) Provisional Order* (132); Alsager Chapel (Marriages)* (153).
Third Reading—Statute Law Revision and Civil Procedure* (140); Water Provisional Orders* (102), and passed.

AFFAIRS OF THE TRANSVAAL—THE ROYAL COMMISSION.

  QUESTIONS. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVON, in rising to inquire of the Secretary of State for the Colonies as to the present position of the business, the procedure, and the probable duration of the Royal Commission for the settlement of the affairs of

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  the Transvaal; further, to inquire what progress has been made towards the determination of the compensation to be awarded to the loyalist inhabitants of the Transvaal, and of the securities to be taken for the protection of the natives in the province; and what steps have been taken for bringing the murderers of Captain Elliott, Mr. Barber, and other Englishmen to justice, said: My Lords, I am not about to call your Lordships' attention particularly to the state of the Transvaal at this moment. I have already had an opportunity in this House of expressing my opinion on that point, and what I desire now to do is to call the attention of Her Majesty's Government and of the House very briefly to some points which seem to me to be of such urgency that they brook no delay. I need not tell the House that, as far as I am concerned, I shall be very careful in stating no fact which I do not believe to be accurate, and I trust my noble Friend opposite will be able to give a clear answer to the Questions I am about to put; and I think it is all the more important that the House should understand the position of this question, because in this country, at the present moment, very little is known of the true state of affairs in the Transvaal. Without adverting to any point which ought not to be touched upon in this House, I may observe that my right hon. Friend (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) has been precluded from obtaining information in the House of Commons on the subject. A Motion of my right hon. Friend's is on the Notice Paper of the House of Commons; but it has been twice postponed in consequence of the state of Public Business in that House, and it is very questionable indeed whether, at this late period of the Session, it will be possible for the other House to enter upon this question. The House of Lords, therefore, is really the only place in which we may obtain any information from Her Majesty's Government on these subjects. Now, my Lords, the first question to which I desire to call the attention of the noble Earl opposite has reference to the Commission which is now sitting at Pretoria. That Commission consists of three members—Sir Hercules Robinson, Sir Evelyn Wood, and Chief Justice Villiers, with the addition of Mr. Brand, the President of the Orange Free States,
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  who sits, as far as I understand it, in the capacity of amicus curiæ. I do not desire to criticize the constitution of that Commission; but if any criticism were necessary, I should say that it is of an extremely Dutch character. I certainly am not the person to find fault with Sir Hercules Robinson, with whose distinguished career in the Colonial Service I have long been familiar; nor again with Sir Evelyn Wood, that brilliant General; nor with Chief Justice Villiers, whom I believe to be a most excellent lawyer and a man of the highest character. But it must be obvious to the House that on that Commission there is not one single person who is qualified to represent the English view of the case by long local experience; while, on the other hand, the real force and power of the Commission are exclusively Dutch. The next point to which I wish to call the attention of Her Majesty's Government is the serious public inconvenience which must arise from the continued presence of Sir Hercules Robinson on this Commission. Sir Hercules Robinson has now been at Pretoria for a considerable time. During his absence a change of Government has taken place, and questions with regard to Basutoland, and other matters of grave importance have arisen; and I feel confident that, if ever the presence of a Governor was necessary anywhere, it is necessary at this moment in the Cape Colony. I next desire to ask Her Majesty's Government what amount of progress the Commission has made? When they commenced their labours they were strongly pressed, as appears from the Blue Book, to limit their work to six months; but I think either Sir Hercules Robinson or Sir Evelyn Wood expressed an opinion that the work might be done in four months. The Commission was issued on the 16th of April, and, therefore, the period of four months is rapidly running out. Lastly, with regard to that Commission, I should very much like to know what the powers are with which it is armed. In the Instructions given to the Commissioners by my noble Friend, I cannot detect anything which will really strengthen their hands or invest them with actual power in enforcing their decisions. If the decision of the Commissioners should be in a Dutch sense and favourable to the Boers, I have no doubt that decision will be respected; but if it should

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  be in the opposite direction then I will give the probable result in Sir Evelyn Wood's own words, to which I conclude no objection will be taken—
  "Mr. Joubert spoke of the difficulty he had with his men in obtaining their acquiescence to the terms accorded to them by the telegram of the 17th. In point of fact, he gave me to understand that the question of peace or war lay very much in the hands of those who had taken up arms under his leadership. I believe this to be the case, and I think it not impossible that these men, who have the prestige which attaches to men as yet unconquered, may at any future time make their voices heard in the event of the Royal Commission giving decisions unpalatable to them or which may fall short of their expectations."
  What authority, then, have the Commissioners for enforcing their decisions? Sir Evelyn Wood adds—
  "I consider it essential, while the Royal Commission is sitting, to keep a large force at Newcastle, within striking distance of the Transvaal."
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: Hear, hear!
  THE EARL OF CARNARVON: My noble Friend cheers; but does he intend to keep that force there in permanence? If so, we shall find ourselves in the presence of a new and very unsatisfactory development of this strange transaction. But I pass on to another matter. The noble Earl has given in a previous Paper some very clear instructions for the guidance of the Royal Commissioners. The points on which he instructed them were six in number, and they may be briefly stated as follows:—(1.) Self-government under the suzerainty of the Queen; (2) a British Resident; (3) protection of Native interests; (4) severance of portions of the country now included in the Transvaal; (5) no molestation for political opinion and a complete amnesty; (6) the question of compensation to either side. I do not propose to touch upon several of these points. They are matters which I think are of very serious moment; but they cannot be discussed with advantage till we have the Report of the Royal Commission before us. I will say nothing with regard to self-government, or the appointment of a Resident, important as the questions are, nor even as to the severance of any portion of the Transvaal, except this—that the necessity of that severance has been dwelt upon very strongly at different times, has formed so considerable a part of the pro-
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  gramme or understanding of what is intended, is in itself probably so essential to the protection of the Native races, whom we have undertaken to support, that it can hardly be abandoned without a great loss of credit and even safety; but there are at this moment in the Transvaal and in South Africa generally rumours which are acquiring strength that that severance will not be insisted on. I do not discuss the question; but I deeply deprecate our being driven in this sort of way from one point to another, until at last there is no standpoint left. The subjects, however, to which I draw attention are such as can well be discussed at the present stage of the negotiations. I desire to know on what terms and conditions compensation is to be awarded to the loyal inhabitants of the Transvaal; what securities the Government are about to take for the protection of Natives; and, lastly, what steps have been taken for bringing to justice men who have been guilty of the foulest possible murders? With regard to the loyalists, I would remind the House that over and over again assurances were given to them that the annexation of the Transvaal would never be reversed. These assurances were given by myself, by the present Colonial Secretary, and, though the Prime Minister disputes the fact that he gave categorically the same assurance, there can be no doubt about the pledge given by the Government as such. Sir Bartle Frere distinctly promised that English rule would be maintained. Sir Garnet Wolseley told the loyalists that as long as the sun shone on the Transvaal the English ascendancy would be maintained, and Sir Owen Lanyon used language almost as strong. On the faith of these assurances numbers of loyal Boers, and of Englishmen and Scotchmen, remained in the country or settled in it. They invested their money there; sometimes their all, and in the course of three years they grew prosperous, and as they prospered so did the country of their adoption. In 1877, at the time of the annexation, there was 12 s. 6d. in the Exchequer of the Transvaal; in 1878, there was £82,000; in 1879, £93,000; and in 1880, £174,000. These figures speak volumes as to what English rule has done in the Transvaal. Then came the war, and some of the loyalists took refuge with Native Tribes, others went

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  to Potchefstroom or Pretoria. They threw in their lot with us, shared all our hardships and dangers, and suffered largely in killed and wounded. No less than 700 volunteers mustered in Pretoria. I want to know what will be the fate of the survivors of those 700 men? But at last peace came, and in the Instructions sent by the noble Earl (the Earl of Kimberley), we find a clause saying there is to be no molestation for political opinion on either side; and that a complete amnesty is to be accorded to all who have taken part in the war, excepting only persons who have committed, or are directly responsible for, acts contrary to the rules of civilized warfare. The noble Earl also said that the Government were bound to take care that those who had been faithful to the British cause should not suffer any detriment in consequence of their loyalty; and that it would be the duty of the Commission to secure to all loyalists, whether Dutch or English, full liberty to reside in the country, with full civil rights, their person and property being protected. But what is the state of things at present? From private, but perfectly reliable information, I hear that the country at this moment is full of rapine and pillage, and that those who have remained loyal to us are subjected to every sort of hardship by the orders of the functionaries of the Transvaal themselves. In some cases, their houses have been looted and their property confiscated, and even sold, by order of a public functionary. If that is done now, when you have your Army within striking distance of the Transvaal, and while the Commission is sitting, what do you expect will be the state of things six months hence when that Army is withdrawn? I will mention three eases, which may be taken as samples of what is now passing. A Mr. Struben has lived in the Transvaal for 16 years. He was respected, rich, and loyal to each Government in turn, just as in France of recent years many a Frenchman has been loyal to each Government in succession. But now, in consequence of his allegiance to the English Government, his property is confiscated, and he is a proscribed man. I believe that agricultural implements worth £4,000, which were on their way to him, were seized and confiscated on their arrival in the Transvaal.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: May I ask the noble Earl the date of that confiscation?
  THE EARL OF CARNARVON: I cannot say.
  EARL GRANVILLE: From what document is the noble Earl quoting these words?
  THE EARL OF CARNARVON: I have already stated that this information is private, but, as I believe, quite reliable. Then there is the case of a Mr. M'Hattie, who has also resided for many years in the Transvaal. The Boers seized all his breeding stock, and cut the throats of all the animals they could not carry off. He brought an action in the High Court, and was granted an interdict, which, in Roman law, is, I believe, equivalent to our injunction; but the Boer leaders against whom the injunction was directed took advantage of a clause in the Instructions of the noble Earl, under cover of which the property was detained. If the Boer leaders themselves, if Joubert and the others act in this way now, what chance will there be of fair and equitable treatment for the loyalists when your troops are withdrawn? Another case is that of Mr. Forsmann, who was Consul General for Portugal. He had lived in the Transvaal for 30 years, and was on excellent terms with the Boer community until, on an unfortunate day for himself, he joined the Legislative Council of Natal. Since the hostilities broke out he has been a persecuted and plundered man. His house has been looted and confiscated by order, as I understand; and his losses, if they may be judged by his claims, on which I do not express an opinion, amount to £200,000. The truth is, that the loyal population in the Transvaal at this moment are in a most painful position. They are terrorized, and are obliged either to fly or to remain in their residences at the peril of their lives and property, and hardly venture to give evidence of their own wrongs or losses. It is, of course, true that among those who demand compensation are men who have speculated in land; but if they are to be refused compensation on that ground, you might as well refuse compensation to a man who has dealt in Consols. Further, I want to know from what source this compensation is to be paid? I presume my noble Friend will not say

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  it is to be charged upon the Transvaal. That would be a simple mockery, as everybody knows. I presume he will not tell me it is to be paid in money issued by the Transvaal Government, because just before the annexation they issued "Blue-backs," which were of the value of not quite 2s. in the pound. I have this additional reason for this question. There are many persons to whom the faith and honour of this country are pledged, as deeply as it is conceivable that the honour of a country could be pledged. Of Sir Theophilus Shepstone's salary, half or two-thirds is charged upon the Transvaal. The half, if not the whole, of President Burgers's salary is, I believe, also charged upon the Transvaal. It is important, as regards this and other cases, that we should know whence these payments are to be made. Mr. Gladstone has written a letter which has been published in the last issue of Papers. I am not going to criticize that letter, because I admit the distinction which he draws; but I should be, at the same time, glad if he had more distinctly stated the sources from which compensation was to be derived; and all the more that a gentleman has been sent from the Treasury whose presence is a guarantee, at all events, that very great and rigid severity will be observed in estimating the claims of those unfortunate loyal Boers. There is another point upon which I should be glad of the attention of the noble Earl. I mentioned it to him a fortnight ago, so that he should have time to satisfy himself of the accuracy of the statement, and until I hear that this Report to which I allude is true I refrain from criticism. I am told that the Royal Commission, while it was at Newcastle, sat with closed doors, and that the Boer leaders, and even their representatives or substitutes, were allowed freely to enter the room; whereas, on the other hand, the loyal Boers, who were at hand in crowds, were not allowed to be present. I really cannot believe that that statement can possibly be true. I can only say, if it were possible, it would be as great an error of judgment on the part of these gentlemen as could possibly be committed. I hope to hear from my noble Friend opposite that he is perfectly satisfied that there is no truth in that report at all; and not only that there is no truth in it, but that the loyalist Boers have had such opportuni-
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  ties of stating their case, cross-examining witnesses, sifting evidence, and placing their claims and interests before the Commission in a fair and reasonable way, as is due to them of all men in the world. I pass now to the next point—the amount of protection which we have given on behalf of the Natives. There is an ambiguity in one despatch in the recent issue of Papers on this point. I believe myself that the Government are prepared to give their protection to all the Natives within the Transvaal. But there is an impression which is ambiguous. I understand, however, that the Government intend to include under their protection all the 700,000 or 800,000 Natives in the country. To all these Natives assurances were given of precisely the same nature as those given to the English and European population, and given by the same persons and in the same way. During all this time those Natives had remained firm in their loyalty to England. They paid their taxes; they were subjected to every sort of temptation by the Boers to rise against us, and were reduced to great straits in consequence of their loyalty. Notwithstanding, they remained unswervingly true and loyal to us. I think there has not been a single exception. They have accepted the orders given them, and their one single trust has been the Queen, or, in their own touching language, "The lady who hears, though very far off;" their one single entreaty has been not to be abandoned, and they have always, I believe, without exception, spontaneously appealed to us for protection against the Boer rule which they saw coming upon them. There are more than 700,000 or 800,000 Natives, and if their voices are allowed to count an overwhelming majority in the Transvaal is in favour of the English rule. Now, my Lords, we know very well—my noble Friend will not deny it—that these men are already subjected to threats and menaces by the Boers and their leaders. They are threatened by the Boers with expulsion from the land on which they have lived for ages. One case was so bad that even my noble Friend opposite thought it necessary—though at this juncture he thinks it essential to remain on good terms with the Boers—to remonstrate with Mr. Kruger—one of the Triumvirate—and to caution and

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  warn him as to the conduct he has adopted, and to say that the statements made respecting him required serious consideration. Again, I say that if these things occur in the green tree, what will be done in the dry? If they are possible now, what will happen when your arms are withdrawn? I wish to call attention to another point. There is a despatch of Sir Owen Lanyon on the affairs of the Transvaal, issued in April of this year, in which there is a Minute by Mr. Shepstone. I must say that Minute ought never to have seen the light of day. It is obviously a confidential document. It recites the cases of, I think, some 16 or 17 Native Chiefs, who have been loyal to the British Government, and who had made offers of assistance to us. Their names are given in extenso. Thereby, when the day of reckoning comes, they will be handed over to the vengeance of the Boers. I am quite aware that this must have been an oversight, but a grievous oversight, which will bring a terrible retribution on these unfortunate men. I hope the Government will take some special means for the protection of these men. We may have volumes of paper schemes for the Transvaal; but what you want is some real security. But what security is possible? A neutral zone, or, as I before said, a severance of territory on the East, was proposed in which the Natives might reside. But there are reports that this neutral zone is to be abandoned. If you look to the promises of the Boer leaders, you have Sir Evelyn Wood's statements, you have their own conduct, to guide you to a true estimate of the value of such assurances, when even the Colonial Secretary himself is obliged to deal with them with a somewhat high hand. Do you look to a renewal of the Sand River Convention? Why, the Sand River Convention is not, and never has been, worth the paper it is written on. It was a dead letter almost as soon as it was signed. Do you look to your Resident, to use an Indian term? But our Indian Resident and a Resident among the Boers are very different things. The Indian Resident has always at hand to support him the weight of an English Army, and that, to all who know India, is the real secret of his influence. But when your Army is drawn from the Transvaal, your Resident among the Boers will be utterly helpless. There are
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  three things which I apprehend are now beyond recovery. First, as it has been in the past, so will it be in the future, with respect to slavery in the Transvaal. The Boers were slaveowners, and will be slaveowners. They may not call the Natives slaves, slavery may be disguised under the title of apprenticeship; but anyone who knows anything at all of the state of the case knows that, to all intents and purposes, they are slaves. At this moment, no Native will dare to move from the land in which he is fixed without the permission of his master. Secondly, you have, and still will have, all those brutalities consequent on the system. You will have public and private floggings. You will have cases sometimes resulting in the loss of life, and you will always find that the jury will refuse to convict. You will find that Natives treated as inferior races always are the hewers of wood and drawers of water. So long as they submit patiently they will have an immunity from cruelty; but let them assert the smallest amount of independence and they will be treated like beasts of the field. And, thirdly, you have, at this moment, in the Orange Free State, a law which forbids the Natives holding an acre of land. That law existed in the Transvaal when we annexed it, and it will, no doubt, be re-enacted as soon as we leave it. I want to know, therefore, are you going to hand these Natives over to the Boers? Are you prepared to hand them over to the lash and the bullet? Are you prepared to abandon all those traditions which have been upheld by the Liberal as well as by the Conservative Party, and which have been the glory of the English name all over the world? There is another matter, and a very disagreeable one, to which I wish to refer, and that is the case of the murders. We have heard a great deal in the public papers on the subject of the forbearance shown by the Boers in this conflict. I do not deny that they have shown many high qualities in war; but there is another side to the story. There is evidence in the Papers of very doubtful proceedings—the firing by the Boers while the white flag was hoisted, and the use of explosive bullets. I hope there will be some answer given to the statements made under these heads; but they have been described fully and repeatedly by credible witnesses, and there ought to be some autho-

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  ritative answer on the facts. There are officers of high position, Colonel Winslow and others, who have made Reports on the subject, and it will be desirable to know whether the explosive bullets were used or not. We know, again, that Englishmen were obliged to work in the trenches where the Boers would not expose themselves, and that they were blown to pieces by English shot and shell. Then we have the evidence as to the vast number of cold-blooded murders of Natives. Besides those, there are certain cases of very foul murder committed upon Englishmen. I will not go through them all. But I will specify the murder of Captain Elliott, who was shot by his escort when swimming the Vaal River, the murder of Mr. Barber, the murder of Mr. Green, of Mr. Malcolm, and, I am afraid, of several other Englishmen. These murders were committed in broad daylight, and the murderers were perfectly well known. Months have gone by since those murders occurred; but as yet the murderers have had complete immunity. Even if they should be arrested, and tried by a jury of Boers, I leave your Lordships to guess the prospect of a conviction. My Lords, I have completed my task, and I thank your Lordships for having listened to me so patiently. I have abstained from all reference to past policy, though I utterly disagree with it, and I simply ask these Questions—First of all, as to the present position of the business, the procedure, and the probable duration of the Royal Commission for the settlement of the affairs of the Transvaal; next, what progress has been made towards the determination of the compensation to be awarded to the loyalist inhabitants of the Transvaal, and of the securities to be taken for the protection of the Natives in the province; and, further, what steps have been taken for bringing the murderers of Captain Elliott, Mr. Barber, and other Englishmen to justice? I hope my noble Friend, in answering these Questions, will not say that he must wait until the close of the Commission, and in thus declining to answer give us mere generalities. I wait with some anxiety for one of those clear statements which the noble Earl is well able to make.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: My Lords, my noble Friend ended his observations by saying he hoped I should
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  not shelter myself under the fact that the Commission was still sitting, and that I should give him an explicit answer to all his Questions. He will be able to judge after I have spoken whether I have given him the answers which he has a right to expect; but I am bound to say at the outset that there are some matters which it is absolutely impossible to answer in detail while the proceedings of the Commission are still going on. Your Lordships have long had in your hands the Instructions given to the Commissioners with regard to these matters; and, at the present moment, I can only say that the Commissioners have been proceeding within the lines of the Instructions which we gave to them. As to a great part of my noble Friend's statement, I have no difficulty in giving him an answer at once. My noble Friend commenced, in a fashion which is not unusual where you wish to bring a particular case forward, by endeavouring to cast doubts upon the efficacy of those who are intrusted with the settlement of the case, and I think he rather went the length of insinuating that they were too Dutch. I confess I heard that with intense surprise. I should have thought that no two men were less likely than Sir Hercules Robinson and Sir Evelyn Wood to sacrifice the interests of their own country to those of foreigners. As regards the third gentleman, who worthily represents the loyal subjects of the Queen—Chief Justice Villiersߞalthough I do not deny that doubtless he has Dutch sympathies, I feel perfectly certain, knowing him as I do, that he will exercise his influence fairly and impartially. I believe the Commission is really a good one, and as fair a Commission as could be appointed under all the circumstances. Then there is President Brand, against whom suspicions are aroused. Well, he appears there as amicus curiæ. Surely he is entitled to be present. He represents a very important State in South Africa. He has played a very friendly part, and there is no man more likely to exercise a more ameliorating and soothing influence than he. I hope the Commissioners, whatever may be their decision, will be allowed to have endeavoured to do their duty fearlessly and impartially. But I am asked how are the decisions of the Commission to be enforced, and the noble

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  Earl said he had looked through the Papers, but had not found the powers given to the Commission to enforce their decisions, and he referred to the despatches of Sir Evelyn Wood, in which it was pointed out that in the course of the negotiations difficulties might arise—difficulties from the want of control of the leaders of the Boers over their followers—difficulties even from the Dutch population in Natal and the Cape Colony. He says—
  "The general situation is by no means clear, and difficulties of serious import may arise at any moment, against which it is necessary to be forewarned."
  And then the noble Earl quoted with approval, and with something of an air of triumph, these words—
  "Under these circumstances I cannot recommend any reduction for two or three months of the military force at present in this country. So strongly do I feel on this subject, that I consider it essential, while the Royal Commission is sitting, to keep a large force at Newcastle, within striking distance of the Transvaal."
  Surely the noble Earl must have perceived that the whole of Sir Evelyn Wood's observations in that despatch have reference to the state of things while the Commission is going on. And he says that while the negotiations are going on, that force, which we have previously heard was uselessly sent to South Africa, should be kept in readiness in order that, if the negotiations should fail, we may have it in our power to enforce our views. I may, in passing, refer to a very small matter and explain why I have laid on the Table a despatch which was given before only in extract. Certain portions of the despatch were not given because they were entirely of a personal nature. A portion was left out by inadvertence, and it has now been laid on the Table. The noble Earl adverted next to the very important question of the loyalists. I wish it to be distinctly understood that I feel a great sympathy for those who boldly and loyally supported the Queen's Government during the recent troubles. I agree in much which the noble Earl said on that subject, and I think it is our bounden duty to obtain just and fair compensation for the losses they have suffered. But I must not be supposed to admit that such a claim as that of the Portuguese Consul in the Transvaal to £219,000 can be regarded
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  as anything but absurd and preposterous. It may be that his losses were real and considerable; but when the items of his bill come to be properly examined, I shall be astonished if they amount to anything like the sum of £219,000, and I think that the putting forward of such a demand is only calculated to prejudice other claims. The noble Earl asks whether it is true that the Commission has been sitting with closed doors in constant communication with the leaders of the Boers, and not admitting to their deliberations any of the loyalist party? My Lords, I have not specific information on the point; but I can answer him, I have no doubt, correctly. I have not the smallest doubt that the Commission did admit to constant communication with them the Boer leaders. If the noble Earl will refer to the Instructions, he will find that an essential part of them was that the Commissioners were to be in communication with those who were to represent the Boers. The original proposition was that the Boer leaders should be on the Commission. That we distinctly refused; but we thought it only reasonable that the Commission should be in communication with the Boer leaders, in order to agree with them on the various points on which the ultimate Convention might be founded. But if the noble Earl thinks that these claims to compensation are to be disposed of with closed doors, and without every fair opportunity for the claimants being heard, he is mistaken; the claims will be referred to a sub-Commission of an official nature, which will thoroughly examine and decide upon them; and the proceedings of the Royal Commission, so far as they relate to the question of compensation, are only of a preliminary character. The noble Earl put a very natural question, in which, no doubt, many persons feel a deep anxiety—;namely, from what fund this compensation is to come. That is one of the important points which have to be settled. I can tell him that the claims will certainly not be paid in Transvaal "Bluebooks." The mode of payment is not yet settled; but I know sufficient of the intentions of the Government to be able to say that whatever compensation is awarded will undoubtedly be secured in good sterling money. The noble Earl spoke of the terrible treatment which might be ex-

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  pected hereafter, as measured by the treatment which the loyal White inhabitants of the Transvaal are now suffering; and he read to us two or three cases. I asked for the dates, because it is of great importance to know whether these occurrences took place before or after the peace. A gentleman, whose name my noble Friend did not mention, but who has been in communication with me, suffered a severe loss by all his horses being taken by the Boers for the purposes of war. His case clearly falls under the class of those which will be heard by the sub-Commission. Although I cannot pledge myself—for I cannot be acquainted with all these details—yet I think it is, at all events, probable that it will be found that many of these cases occurred during the war, or immediately after it. I fear that it is also possible, in the state of disorganization into which the country has fallen through the absence of settled government—there being, in fact, a provisional state of things, pending the settlement—that cases may have occurred which have given reason for complaint on the part of some who have been loyal to the Queen. They have not come directly to my knowledge; but they may possibly exist. But my noble Friend says the important question is what provision we intend to make for the future. He read a passage from my instructions, and it will be my duty, to the best of my ability, to see that effect is given to those instructions. Every point which he has mentioned will be carefully attended to. The noble Earl may say that the Convention will be only waste paper; but as far as a distinct agreement can go, we shall overlook no point on which the loyal subjects of the Queen may feel concerned. Then, my noble Friend referred to the case of the Natives, and he found fault with me for having produced an interesting Memorandum of Mr. Shepstone. Does the noble Earl really think that the proceedings of such Native Chiefs as those alluded to in that Memorandum were not entirely known to the Boers? The Boers were far too well acquainted with what had gone on in the country to require to be enlightened by that Memorandum. My noble Friend next adverted to the communication which I addressed to the Commission, because every possible at-
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  tempt is made by those who wish to destroy that peaceful settlement to discredit Mr. Kruger, Mr. Pretorius, Mr. Joubert, and, in fact, everyone who is concerned in it. The hope of those who set about lying calumnies of every kind is that by some means or other they may bring about a renewal of the war. And when I saw those accusations against Mr. Kruger, of having done and said certain things that would have been most discreditable, although believing those statements to be untrue, I thought it only due to him and to myself, considering that Mr. Kruger is a very important person in connection with the negotiations going on, to give him every possible opportunity of denying the statements thus made. Mr. Kruger answered at once. My noble Friend did not refer to it. Mr. Kruger denied the accuracy of the statements alleged to have been made by him, and gave the specific engagement which has been mentioned. My noble Friend said why did we ask for such a specific engagement? It was because if Mr. Kruger was acting honestly and truly, as we believed, he would show it at once, and he immediately, without reserve and without difficulty, gave such an engagement. We have received the answer that we expected. It is honourable to the man, and a fair test of his honesty and sincerity. As to the condition affecting the Natives, I cannot enter into details at this moment; but I almost think that when my noble Friend sees the various arrangements that we have made, supposing they are ultimately adopted, as we hope they will be, in their final shape, he will find that we have not forgotten the case of the Natives. I believe I have answered most of the questions which my noble Friend asked. But there is one point which I ought to have mentioned. He said, look at the great result which had followed from the great influx of English into the Transvaal, and as evidence, a remarkable balance-sheet was produced. He said that when the English took the Transvaal over there was only 12 s. 6d. in the Boer Treasury chest, while year after year this balance increased, until last year it stood at £180,000. I admit that the improvement in the Transvaal is very encouraging under English rule and creditable to the administration of Sir Owen Lanyon; but I must point out

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  that the latter balance-sheet does not represent the real expenditure, inasmuch as it does not contain a single farthing for the military establishment of the country. The whole of the military expenditure must be debited against that £180,000. Moreover, when the 12 s. 6d. was in the Treasury the Boers had just been engaged in an unsuccessful expedition against Secocoeni. Were the last balance-sheet to contain the items of the two British expeditions against Secocoeni, the result would be very different, because the successful one cost £368,000, and the unsuccessful one must have cost a considerable sum also. The noble Earl has spoken of the unfortunate murders which have taken place, and referred to them as of vast number.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVON: I think I said a great number. I meant a great number.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: There is such an extraordinary amount of exaggeration with regard to everything concerning the Transvaal that one is obliged to take notice even of an adjective. But I am afraid that a considerable number of Natives have lost their lives. With respect to the particular murders to which my noble Friend refers, the best answer I can give the noble Lord is contained in two or three of the most recent telegrams I have received on the subject. With regard to Mr. Barber, who was murdered, not in the Transvaal, but in the Orange Free State, we applied to President Brand to have justice done. The answer, dated 1st May, was—"President Brand has taken steps to bring to trial the persons accused of murder." Mr. Barber left two children, I am sorry to say, orphans, and that may form a fair subject for compensation from the Transvaal. With regard to Captain Elliot we sent a similar telegram, pressing for the murderers to be brought to justice, and the answer was, that on the 4th July two of the party who fired at him were committed for trial before the High Court. Then there was the case of Mr. Malcolm, and the persons accused in that case were committed for trial on the same day. The question with regard to Mr. Green's case is whether or not it comes within the amnesty. The Attorney General, we are informed, has undertaken to collect evidence. When the facts ate established it will be seen whether or
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  not it is covered by the amnesty. Then a very general accusation is made that the Boers, during these disturbances, had acted in a discreditable manner by firing upon the white flag. Nobody will contest that it is a dishonourable action to fire upon a white flag; but before your Lordships pass judgment on this charge against the Boers, it is well to hear what is said on the subject on the one side and the other. This charge reminds me of what happened to myself on the subject of firing on a white flag. I had the honour to be intrusted with a mission to St. Petersburg after the conclusion of the Crimean War, and one of the first things said to me by a person very high in position when I arrived was this—"We are glad the war is over, and we wish to be on good terms; but it is lamentable to think of the frightful atrocities which you committed during the war." And when I inquired what the atrocities were, the answer was—"Oh, repeatedly firing on the white flag." On which I replied—"If I were you I would not say anything about that, because that is precisely the charge that the people of England make against the Russians, and they think they have the strongest ground for that charge." Undoubtedly, there have been cases in war in which the white flag has been deliberately fired on; but there have been more cases in which this has happened from mistakes, or from disobedience, or in the hurry of action, and I trust that no stronger censure will, on this account, be dealt out to the Boers than is dealt out to other nations engaged in a European war. I regret as much as anyone can that, owing to circumstances over which neither I nor any of us have any control, there has not been in "another place" a full discussion of this subject. But I wish to express my belief that the more the conduct of the Government is inquired into the less it will be found to merit the reprobation which has been passed upon it.

INDIA—COOPER'S HILL COLLEGE— CIVIL ENGINEERS.

  ADDRESS FOR PAPERS.
  LORD BELPERrose to ask the Under Secretary of State for India, Whether he can state the reasons which have led to the change in the scheme of manage-

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  ment of Cooper's Hill College; and to move for a
  "Copy of the new scheme, and also a copy of any correspondence that may have taken place between the Governor General in Council and the Secretary of State for India on the subject; also for a Return of—1. The annual expenditure of the college since its foundation; 2. Anuual receipts from the students; 3. The number of students who have entered the college in each year since its foundation; 4. The number of students in each year who, having passed through the college, have received appointments as civil engineers in India."
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, that he took very great interest in Cooper's Hill College, which was founded during the time of his administration at the India Office. If a great school of engineering had existed in India capable of supplying a sufficient number of competent men to execute economically the public works undertaken in India, it would have been folly on the part of the Government to start an institution like Cooper's Hill College. But the Indian Government had lost annually enormous sums of money by the carelessness and incompetence of many of the civil engineers in India, and when holding the Office of Secretary of State for India he found that it was hardly possible to obtain in the open market a sufficient number of competent men to conduct the public works in India on a scale such as that on which they were then being undertaken. Some of the civil engineers in India at the time to which he referred were very distinguished persons; but there were also a number of inferior men who might have been called "hard bargains." On one occasion, some millions were spent under the direction of the engineers of India in the construction of new barracks. It turned out, however, that these buildings had been erected in accordance with entirely erroneous principles, and that they were mere "sun traps." They were tremendously hot, and in consequence the health of the troops quartered in them suffered severely. Many of them were so insufficiently built that it was found they would not last for more than a few years, and in some cases even the lime that had been used was pronounced to be bad. In this way the Indian Government were annually losing hundreds of thousands of pounds in bad engineering. The insufficiency of the engineering service having been brought prominently before the notice of the India Office, the authorities formed the idea of the erec-
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  tion of Cooper's Hill College. The project was opposed by a number of persons, including many Members of Parliament, but eventually it was successfully carried out. He had always heard that it was considered that the College was a very thriving institution; but he quite understood that during the financial difficulties which India had recently felt fewer public works had been erected, and that, consequently, there had been a diminution in the demand for the services of such engineers as were trained at Cooper's Hill. In conclusion, he wished to assure their Lordships that the foundation of the College was not agreed to until a most thorough investigation had convinced the Indian Department of the insufficiency of the previous system.
  VISCOUNT ENFIELDsaid, his noble Friend behind him (Lord Belper) wished to know what had induced the authorities to make a change in the character of the institution known as Cooper's Hill College. The reason of the change was generally to extend its advantages, and this would, it was hoped, prove of use both at home and in India. A reduction was being made in the Public Works expenditure in India, and corresponding with that reduction there had been a diminution in the number of appointments on the staff of the Public Works Department. Cooper's Hill College having been established for exclusive training for civil engineers in India, it was not now possible to maintain it on its original footing, with the reduced number of men now required for engineering service in that country. It had in former years met with decided success. Rather than take steps which might eventually lead to its being closed, the authorities had determined, after consultation with and with the support of certain eminent engineers in this country, to try the experiment of making the College a general training institution for the civil engineering profession, offering the students at the close of their course of study the number of appointments required to fill up the vacancies which might occur each year in the Indian Public Works and Telegraph Departments. These appointments would be competed for among themselves. The College could receive 150 students, and the number of Indian appointments annually competed for would vary from 10 to 20. Correspondence had

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  taken place between the Secretary of State for India in Council and the Government of India on the whole subject of the future strength of the Indian Public Works Department and its recruitment; but as this Correspondence was still under consideration, he could not, speaking for the Secretary of State, undertake to produce it at the present time. There would be no objection to give the other Returns moved for, including a copy of the new scheme for Cooper's Hill College.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that Cooper's Hill College at the time of its establishment was a very necessary institution, as just at that time great Public Works were being constructed in India; but as time advanced the famines which periodically occurred in India made it inevitable that the amount spent on Public Works should be reduced, and it necessarily followed that the number of engineers required for the public service should be restricted also. As far as he had been able to observe, the education given at the school was of the highest character, and the results had been exceedingly satisfactory. He thought it should be very clearly understood that if there were more people being educated in England at this College than places could be found for in India, the inevitable result must be one of those periodical blocks which occurred in the service, and which always ended in the most disastrous manner for the Indian Exchequer. He believed the Government were acting wisely in the step they had taken; but he hoped the difficulties would not induce them to close altogether an institution which had done so much good service in the past.
  Return, as amended, agreed to.
  Address for—
  Copy of the new scheme of management of Cooper's Hill College:
  Also Return of—

  1. The annual expenditure of the college since its foundation;

  2. Annual receipts from the students;

  3. The number of students who have entered the college in each year since its foundation;

  4. The number of students in each year who, having passed through the college, have received appointments as civil engineers in India.—(The Lord Belper.)

  House adjourned at a quarter past Seven o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.