Lords Sitting of 28 February 1881

MINUTES.
Sat First in Parliament——The Lord Wenlock, after the death of his father.
PUBLIC BILLS — first Reading —Protection of Person and Property (Ireland) (40).
Second Heading —Bankruptcy Law Amendment (34); Local Taxation Returns (Scotland) (37).

RIVERS CONSERVANCY AND FLOODS PREVENTION BILL.—QUESTION.
EARL SPENCER, seeing the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees in his place, wished to ask him a Question of which he had given him private Notice. Some little time ago he had the honour of bringing before their Lordships a Bill in reference to the prevention of floods. Several Private Bills had been introduced which contained provisions with reference to drainage and the prevention of floods. It seemed to him that it would be desirable to postpone the Committee on those Bills until after the provisions of the general Bill had been placed before their Lordships. It might be a matter of importance and save a great deal of trouble.
THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)said, that probably the noble Earl referred to the Severn Navigation Bill, and it might be found that the provisions of the general Act would accomplish all that was desired on the part of the promoters of that Bill. He had not had any applications in respect to other Bills connected with drainage; but he would make some inquiries into the subject, and, in all probability, the proposition of the noble Earl would be adopted.

PROTECTION OF PERSON AND PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL.

  FIRST READING.
  Brought from the Commons; read a (No. 40.)
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES)asked when Her Majesty's Government proposed to take the second reading of the Bill?
  EARL SPENCERreplied that they proposed to take it to-morrow.
  EARL GRANVILLEadded that if Committee on the Bill were negatived the Government would propose to have the third reading taken on Wednesday.

SOUTH A ERICA — THE TRANSVAAL (MILITARY OPERATIONS) — DEFEAT OF THE BRITISH FORCES.— OBSERVATIONS.
EARL CADOGAN: My Lords, the very serious news from South Africa will so profoundly have affected your Lordships and the country, that the House will, I am sure, be anxious to receive from the Government any further intelligence of which they may be in possession. Perhaps the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies will give any information that he may have, both as to the events of yesterday, and as to the measures that may be about to be taken by Her Majesty's Government in view of the existing circumstances.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: My Lords, I have no information beyond that which has already appeared in the public newspapers with regard to the lamentable event to which my noble Friend refers. The full particulars, as far as we know, have already been communicated to the public. I cannot allow this opportunity to pass—for I am afraid there is no doubt of the death of the gallant officer, who was Governor of Natal and Commander-in-Chief of these forces—without bearing my testimony to the very efficient and satisfactory way in which that lamented officer discharged his duties under the Colonial Office as Governor of Natal. With respect to the military operations in which he has been engaged, I am not competent, personally, to pronounce an opinion, nor would this be at all a fitting occasion to discuss them. I will only say that no one can doubt that Sir George Colley
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was an able and most energetic officer; and that if he has met with misfortune I think the country will not forget that he has fallen in its service, in the performance of a most arduous and difficult duty. With regard to the arrangements that are to be made to meet the present emergency, I have been for a long time to-day in conference with the military authorities. The arrangements are in progress. I am not in a position to announce them to-day; but no doubt I shall be able to do so tomorrow. I think, however, I may assure your Lordships that they will be such as are suitable to the emergency.
VISCOUNT CRANBROOKsaid, that as, of course, there was the deepest anxiety on the part of the relatives of those serving in the Transvaal, perhaps the noble Earl would state whether the accounts in the newspapers, with respect to the deaths and those who had escaped, were such as might be relied on.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: My Lords, I did not mean to say that I vouched for all the information contained in the newspapers, but that the War Office had furnished to the newspapers all the information in their possession.

BANKRUPTCY LAW AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 34.)
(The Earl Cairns.)
BANKRUPTCY LAW AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 34.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  EARL CAIRNS, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, the Bill was similar in its provisions to that which he brought in, and which passed their Lordships' House, when he was on the Woolsack. He would not ask their Lordships to go into Committee on the Bill till he saw what prospect there might be of legislation on the same subject from other quarters. He regretted that the Government had not taken an opportunity to introduce the measure promised by them in the Queen's Speech. Although, in the present state of Business in the House of Commons, it would be vain to expect to make progress, yet any measure dealing with this question must be necessarily one which would remain a considerable time before the public, in

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  order that the various classes interested in such legislation might have an opportunity of considering and examining it. He would therefore suggest that it would be desirable for Her Majesty's Government to introduce their Bankruptcy Bill as soon as possible.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2."—(The Earl Cairns.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLORmade no objection to the Motion. He thought his noble and learned Friend was entitled to have his Bill read a second time. At the same time, he was bound to say that the Government Bill would, when introduced, be found to contain much matter which was not in the Bill of the noble and learned Earl. The suggestion as to the importance of introducing the Government Bill as soon as practicable would receive the attention which it deserved.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly.

MUSEUM OF PRACTICAL GEOLOGY, JERMYN STREET.—QUESTION.
THE DUKE OF SOMERSETasked the Lord President of the Council, What were the intentions of the Government with respect to the Museum of Practical Geology in Jermyn Street? He said that the removal of the lectures given at this Museum from Jermyn Street to South Kensington would do away with their practical utility, and the building in Jermyn Street would no longer, as hitherto, be of service to the working classes.
EARL SPENCERsaid, he was not aware that the Museum of Practical Geology had been broken up in Jermyn Street. Some change had, no doubt, taken place within the last few years as regarded the lectures in the School of Mines. Some of the scientific lectures formerly delivered there were now given in South Kensington. That had been found necessary in consequence of the bad accommodation in Jermyn Street for those lectures; and it had been carried out in consequence of a strong recommendation by the Royal Commission, known as the Duke of Devonshire's Commission. Indeed, the change recommended by the Commission was much wider than any change which had yet taken place, as they had suggested
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that all the lectures and the Professors should be removed to South Kensington; and that the Museum building at Jermyn Street should be kept for the Geological Survey and the Museum. With regard to the general question, he was unwilling to enter upon it, because the whole question was being considered by the Department. He had given an undertaking last year to inquire into the matter, and see what could be done, in order to make these lectures as beneficial to the wants and the interests of the country as possible. With the view of fulfilling that promise, the Department had been carefully investigating the subject, and they were now in communication with the Treasury, and he hoped very soon to be able to make public what had been decided. With regard to the lectures to working men, he would take the opportunity of stating that there was no intention whatever on the part of the Government to give up these lectures to the working men at Jermyn Street, which had been continued with great success ever since their establishment in 1851. The lectures which had been held at South Kensington—which were only six courses out of 100 in 30 years—had met with great success, and it was not intended to discontinue them, or those in Jermyn Street. Professor Huxley—who, with the other Professors, deserved the gratitude of the public for the way in which they had conducted these lectures —in the course of a conversation last Saturday, told him that of all the lectures which he had to deliver he liked those best which he delivered to the working classes. Without going further into this subject at present, he might observe that anyone visiting the Museum in Jermyn Street would see that the space was quite inadequate to all the demands upon it; and it was impossible to conduct properly the various experiments illustrative of the subject-matter of the lectures. Indeed, the question would shortly come before the Department as to what should be done with the magnificent collection there, which was said to be unrivalled in the world.

IRELAND — PERIODICAL MIGRATION OF IRISH LABOURERS.—QUESTION.
LORD MONTEAGLEasked the Lord President of the Council, Whether Her Majesty's Government has any informa-

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tion as to the migratory agricultural labourers of Ireland which can be presented to Parliament, and, if so, when the Papers are likely to be laid on the Table of the House?
EARL SPENCER, in reply, said, that a Return giving the information asked for by the noble Lord had already been promised to their Lordships' House, and would very shortly, he hoped, be circulated.

LOCAL TAXATION RETURNS (SCOTLAND) BILL.—(No. 37.)
(The Earl of Dalhousie.)
LOCAL TAXATION RETURNS (SCOTLAND) BILL.—(No. 37.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE EARL OF DALHOUSIE, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, the Bill was short and simple, and its object was so obviously desirable that it seemed hardly necessary he should trouble their Lordships with any remarks upon it. As their Lordships would see at a glance, it was a purely administrative measure. It merely provided for an annual Return of local rates and taxes in Scotland, similar to the annual Returns now made in England, Ireland, and Wales, by Act of Parliament. Its effect would be to place Scotland on an equal footing, in this respect, with the other parts of the United Kingdom. That was the entire scope of the Bill. At present annual Returns of local taxation and expenditure were regularly made to the Secretary of State, under the Local Taxation Returns Acts of 1860 and 1877, from all parts of the Kingdom with the exception of Scotland, which was not included within the operation of those Acts. The only Returns of local taxation and expenditure in Scotland were those which were made under special Acts of Parliament to various Departments—such, for instance, as the Returns of poor rates and expenditure, to the Board of Supervision; of school rates and expenditure, to the Privy Council; of prison rates and expenditure, to the Secretary of State. In the counties there were no Returns of county assessment, nor of expenditure on police and roads. In the boroughs there were no Returns of assessments nor expenditure on such matters as police, sanitary reform, and city improvements. What
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  was wanted, and what this Bill provided, was that, in addition to these partial Returns, which were furnished at present to different Departments, a general Return of all local taxation and expenditure should be made to the Secretary of State. As their Lordships were aware, the Government were frequently asked to give subsidies to local objects; and for that reason, as well as for the sake of uniformity, it would be desirable that the Government should have in a compact form the information which such a Return as was contemplated by this Bill would supply. The Bill was drawn as nearly as possible on the lines of the Local Taxation Returns Acts of 1860 and 1877, under which the Returns were now made for England, Ireland, and Wales; and he hoped that their Lordships would see no reason for thinking that Scotland should remain, as she was at present, an exception to the general rule for the rest of the United Kingdom.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Earl of Dalhousie.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

AFGHANISTAN.

  ADDRESS FOR A PAPER.
  THE EARL OF LYTTONmoved for an Address for a Copy of Government of India Despatch, No. 40, of 9th March, 1877.
  VISCOUNT ENFIELDsaid, there was no objection to the production of the despatch to which the noble Lord had referred; but as he had informed his Lordship on behalf of the Secretary of State for India, it might, perhaps, be necessary to attach additional Papers. If, therefore, the noble Earl would add to his Motion the words "and other papers," there would be no objection to the production of the despatch.
  Motion, as amended, agreed to.

LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND) ACT, 1870—THE ROYAL COMMISSION— THE EVIDENCE.—QUESTION.
LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEasked the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies, that facilities might be given for hastening the production of the evidence taken before the

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Irish Land Commission. That evidence was promised in a week; but a fortnight had been allowed to elapse.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYpromised to bring the matter under the notice of the Department charged with the duty of producing the evidence.
House adjourned at half past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.