§ Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
THE MARQUESS OF HUNTLY, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that there had been already a good deal of inquiry and legislation on the subject. Acts dealing with it were passed in 1863, 1868, and 1874. There had been a Committee, under the late Lord Derby, to inquire into it, and there was a Commission in 1878. Parliament, in dealing with the question, had proceeded tentatively, not being desirous of unduly restricting enterprize, or imposing any heavy burden on the manufacturers, but with the view of correcting the damage done by noxious vapours 866 and acids, in so far as remedies could be found. The usefulness of the Acts that had been passed was agreed to both by manufacturers and the inhabitants of the districts in which the works were situated; but there was a general desire to enlarge the usefulness of those statutes, and include other works from which noxious gases were evolved, and to bring them under regulation. The Report of 1878 recommended that a considerable number of manufactures should be included in the restrictive legislation. Briefly, the provisions of the Bill were — firstly, it consolidated the existing Acts; secondly, it subjected sulphuric acid works to a test restricting the escape of acid gases from them; thirdly, it provided a separate power for inspection of salt works from brine; fourthly, it insisted upon the registration, on payment of a fee, for all alkali works and the scheduled works. As regarded the scheduled works, the object aimed at had been to touch the industries which admitted of a remedy, and to secure a substantial improvement without over-burdening the manufacturer. Under the Act of 1863 the muriatic acid was to be condensed to the extent of 95 per cent. The Act of 1874 was more stringent. Clause 3 of the present Bill maintained the test of 1874 as regarded alkali works—(a) that to the satisfaction of the Chief Inspector the muriatic acid evolved must not contain more than one-fifth part of a grain to each cubic foot of air, smoke, or chimney gas escaping from works to the atmosphere; the Bill adds the further test that (J) of all the acid gases evolved in the process of manufacturing the total acidity in each cubic foot of air, smoke, or gas escaping into the chimney or into the atmosphere must not be more than four grains of sulphuric anhydride. Clause 5 provided that alkali waste and drainage therefrom, so long as they contained any sulphide, should not come into contact with any liquid containing acid; and that any work in which acid was produced should be carried on in such a manner that the acid should not come in contact with the alkali waste. The sanitary authority, at the request of the owner of the work, at his expense, was to provide a drain or channel for carrying off acids. Clause 6 prevented deposit of alkali waste on land without the best practicable means 867 being used to prevent nuisance. By Clause 7 a new power was given to bring all works named in the Schedule under regulation, and providing, as before stated, for the condensation of acid gases in the case of sulphuric acid works. Clause 9 placed salt works under a milder form of inspection. Under this clause inspectors might inquire as to the gases evolved in any works for extraction of salt from brine, and the Local Government Board might issue Provisional Orders, to be confirmed by Parliament, requiring owners to adopt means to prevent escape, and limit the amount or proportion of sulphurous or muriatic acid evolved. By Clause 10 all works touched by the Bill, except salt works, were to be registered. Clause 11 provided that, in future, no works were to be erected without being furnished with appliances to carry out the purposes of the Act. Clause 13 embodied the existing clauses for the appointment of Inspectors by the Local Government Board. But in Clause 15 there was an extension of power; it authorized Inspectors to enter and inspect any place where alkali waste was treated or deposited, or where any liquid containing acid was likely to come into contact with alkali waste, but not in such a way as to interrupt the process of manufacture. Under Clause 18 the sanitary authority might apply for an additional Inspector, on paying not less than one-half of his salary. Clause 27 provided that any person might bring an action against several persons —individually and separately—for any nuisance arising from noxious and offensive gases; and further actions might, in future, be brought in County Courts. There were not included in the Bill many works recommended by the Royal Commission to be placed under inspection only; because it was considered that where the Government were not prepared to adopt a test regulating the escape of noxious vapours, or any practicable means for restricting them, such inspection would be unnecessarily vexatious to the manufacturers and expensive in practice. He should, doubtless, be asked why the recommendation of the Commission as regarded coke ovens was not adopted. The reason was that coke ovens emitted black smoke — although, to a small extent, acids might be evolved in the smoke— 868 and that that could be touched under the Public Health Act, 1875. The Bill included cement works among the scheduled ones not recommended by the Commission.
§ Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Marquess of Huntly.)
§ VISCOUNT MIDLETONadmired the ingenuity with which the noble Marquess had endeavoured to persuade their Lordships that in introducing this Bill he was really introducing a comprehensive measure that would settle the difficult questions with which it was to deal. He was afraid, however, he could not congratulate him upon his success. The matter was not before their Lordships for the first time; but 15 years ago it attracted attention, and had been almost continuously before their Lordships in one way or another since. With regard to the Bill, it was to be judged rather by what it did not than what it did do. The noble Earl (the Earl of Beacons-field) had stated that the alkali trade afforded one of the most delicate tests of the revival or decadence of the commercial powers of the country, and that statement had been fully borne out by the facts of the case. The amount of capital invested in the alkali trade two years ago considerably exceeded, he believed, £2,000,000, and it had largely increased since. He admitted the extreme delicacy of attempting to deal by legislation with interests so large and so widely diffused. They had to consider the very great amount of capital invested, and also the great danger there was, if they imposed restrictive legislation, of destroying the margin of profit, and thus driving the trade abroad. At the same time, there were considerations of public utility and public welfare which must override those others if a fair case could be made out. As the law now stood there were but few trades affected by the Acts, alkali works, and works in which copper was subjected to the wet process. To these it was proposed to add by the Bill, cement works, chemical manure works, gas liquor works, nitric acid works, sulphuric acid works, works for the treatment of sulphate of ammonia, and one or two others which all required to be dealt with. As far as the Bill went its general principle might be accepted. No doubt a genuine attempt had been made to correct the evil, so far 869 as they could do so, by scientific processes applied to the exit of gases; and it certainly would be an important advantage for the Inspector under the Local Government to be able to deal with the question of acid drainage and the waste from alkali works, which were alike destructive to vegetation, and which were most offensive to smell and a grievous nuisance. There was one trade embraced in the Bill, but which was put upon another footing, and that was salt works, which were put under inspection merely. That subject formed one of the recommendations of the Commission. There was no doubt that a large amount of the evil which arose from salt works could be cured; but it could only be by an amount of expenditure which would render it extremely difficult to carry on the business, because it would totally destroy the small amount of profit that would enable them to compete with the foreigners, and he therefore thought it quite right to except those works from stringent regulation to which others were subjected. The Bill of the noble Marquess was infinitely weaker than the one introduced in the last Session of Parliament by Mr. Sclater-Booth and than the recommendations of the Commission. In fact, the Bill now presented was only an emasculated copy of that of 1880, and left out 12 trades altogether which the Commissioners specially recommended should be dealt with—one of the most deleterious of which was the treatment of copper by the dry process. Potteries and glass works also emitted distinct noxious gases, but at so high a temperature that no process had yet been found to neutralize them. The Commissioners, therefore, recommended them to be placed in the category of noxious trades. They were, nevertheless, quite ignored by the present Bill. A still more striking omission was that of coke ovens, which were recommended to be dealt with by the Bill of 1880, but entirely disappeared from this Bill. This was purely a matter of expense. He could not help thinking that some of the works the Commissioners, of whom he was one, inspected were swept and garnished for the purpose. The very best of them were those of Mr. Lowthian Bell, where everything was done that science could effect for the destruction of the noxious gases; but, for the most part, the works were ill- 870 ventilated, and every species of nuisance was collected around them, and the expense of putting them into a proper condition would be considerable. There was one point of view from which a Bill of this kind became a hardship, unless it was a complete Bill. There was no doubt that the great mass of the trade had endeavoured to comply with the provisions of the existing Act at great personal sacrifices. The object was to bring up the manufacturers who did not do their duty to the level of the best managed works. Complaint was made with justice by some that heavy penalties were imposed on them, while many persons conducting kindred industries were allowed to escape scot free. That was an injustice that would be perpetuated by this Bill. As many as 12 trades were left entirely outside the Bill; and it was refused to put them even under inspection. The Bill, generally speaking, seemed to him to smack far too much of the spirit of compromise, which implied that the Government could not count on the majority which they had in the other House to enable them to carry the proposals which they would wish to have made. He thought any measure on this subject should be fair, full, and comprehensive, and this Bill had none of those qualities. He trusted that the clause providing for cumulative liability would be rigorously maintained, though, from recent experience, he very much doubted whether it would. With regard to inspection, he objected to anything like local Inspectors, and he thought the proposal to keep their appointment in the hands of the Local Government Board a good one. He thought, however, the time had come when they should cease to proceed in this matter in what he would call a tentative manner, and when any legislation on the subject of inspection should proceed on more settled lines. As one who had studied this question, and who, having been on the Royal Commission, had formed an impartial opinion on it, he was bound to say that he did not think the measure would be accepted as a settlement of the question. He thought the result would be to cause an outcry similar to that which was raised in 1876 for fresh legislation, another Address to Her Majesty praying for the issue of another Commission, and that they would be obliged to bring in another Bill. They 871 ought not to make the law less stringent than the recommendation of the Commissioners; and, in respect specially to coke ovens, unless he received some assurance from the noble Marquess, he would move that it be an Instruction to the Committee to include them.
§ LORD ABERDAREsaid, that having been, to some extent, responsible for the issue of the Commission which inquired into that subject, and having examined the matter at some sacrifice of personal comfort and almost of health, he wished to make a few remarks. That question had been brought some years ago before their Lordships' House by the most rev. Primate (the Archbishop of Canterbury), and on that occasion he had himself ventured to suggest that nothing further should be done in the direction of interfering with those noxious trades until after a thorough inquiry had been instituted with the aid of eminent scientific men. A Commission was subsequently issued, to the members of which were joined three chemists of the greatest reputation and ability, who were conversant with the application of chemistry to trades and manufactures. The Commissioners were charged with the duty of taking a comprehensive view of the whole subject. The present Bill, in his opinion, contained some very decided improvements on its predecessors, as might fairly have been expected. As a Consolidating Bill, it would effect an improvement, the value of which all those who had anything to do with the administration of justice would recognize. It dealt in a better manner than had been done before with one of the most noxious of vapours, sulphureted hydrogen, which extended sometimes for eight, nine, or ten miles, making life almost impossible. The measure was also, in some respects, more stringent than the previous one. The Commission had proposed to deal with those nuisances under different classes. They found the works carried on with various degrees of care; and where they felt themselves justified in requiring the proprietors to use the best known processes for remedying the nuisances arising from their operations they recommended the adoption of that course. In regard to another and very considerable class of works, all inflicting nuisances, they did not think they were in a position to insist on the use of the best known processes where it would 872 involve the entire stoppage of the works. But it was generally admitted that there would be much advantage in subjecting those works to inspection, with a view to their being carried on with the smallest practical amount of mischief to the neighbourhood; and many of the manufacturers themselves concurred in that view. They objected, indeed, to the local Inspectors as not having such scientific attainments as would justify them in interfering with processes of great nicety; but as long as they were satisfied that the Inspectors possessed adequate scientific knowledge they did not object to their supervision. The Commissioners had proposed that a very large number of works should be placed under inspection. Their object was not only that by inspection the works should be kept up to the latest discoveries of modern science, but as those discoveries became known, they recommended—and the late Government adopted their recommendation — that on the Local Government Board being satisfied that by the adoption of some scientific process the injury which was devastating a whole district might be prevented, it should issue a Provisional Order and include the works under the operation of the Act. Many towns were so bound up by interest with manufacturing industry that their authorities were afraid of inflicting injury on the manufacturers by imposing on them the expense of providing apparatus for consuming their own smoke. He was sorry to see that the Government, with the opportunity now given them, had neglected the subject of coke ovens. It was no answer to say that the subject was sufficiently dealt with by the ordinary law of the land; because there was hardly a manufacturing town in England that put the law into operation, the manufacturing interest and influence being so powerful as to prevent its general adoption or enforcement. It was wrong to suppose that the injury done by coke was confined to the black smoke, because much sulphuric acid was also generated to the great injury of animal and vegetable life. He advised his noble Friend to consult with the President of the Local Government Board, to consider, after what had taken place, if a little more effect could not be given to the recommendations of the Commission. One of these, he would remind him, was that there were some 12 trades in respect 873 to which it would not be safe to interfere, but which ought to be periodically inspected with a view to future legislation.
THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY, in supporting, three years ago, the Motion for a Royal Commission as originally moved by the noble Duke the late Lord Privy Seal had regretted that it did not extend to the River Thames. He did not, however, on that account lose his interest in the question generally, and was glad when the scope of the Commission was extended; and now, on behalf of his neighbours, he was sorry that no remedy was to be applied in Lambeth. The inconvenience he himself suffered in a large and commodious house from noxious gases made him specially alive to the far greater inconvenience and injury to health which the poor people around him must suffer. He was glad to hear the noble Viscount intimate that in Committee he would propose some further extension in the direction in which the Bill went. All people who could fled from cities where noxious vapours were omitted, and saw nothing of the injury done by these works to the poor. In London itself the poor gathered in one place and the rich in another; and thus those sympathies and amenities which would naturally arise from their being brought into juxtaposition were lost—a state of matters which might yet become a great social question. This was a subject in which the rich and the better circumstanced could show their interest in the poor, whose health was so prejudiced by the evils which this measure sought to remedy.
THE EAKL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he could remember when this subject was first brought before that House by the late Lord Derby, and ever since that time great interest had been taken in it by Members of their Lordships' House. Now, the noble Viscount opposite (Viscount Midleton) complained that this was not a comprehensive measure. He (the Earl of Kimberley) imagined that every Government would be glad if it could make all its legislation comprehensive; but it was generally found that in all matters involving considerable interference with trades and business a comprehensive measure was practically impossible. Parliament proceeded, as a rule, and he thought wisely, step by step, building up a system by means of 874 experience, and not by experimental legislation, causing a reaction against their measures which would not be easily remedied. He pointed out that this was a very considerable advance upon previous legislation, and he submitted it ought not to be measured by its provisions, but by what it actually did. The Bill proposed to include six or seven new trades under its scope. There were three trades by which considerable injury was done to neighbourhoods, and which they should be very glad to deal with—he referred to the gases evolved in the manufactures connected with dry copper, with potteries, and glass. Chemistry, however, had not yet been able to discover any process by which a remedy could be applied without interfering- in a great measure with the manufactures themselves. He was sanguine enough, however, to believe that in course of time, by the aid of chemists and the wonderful progress in knowledge, some process would be discovered by which to deal with the evils referred to. The most rev. Primate (the Archbishop of Canterbury) would agree with him that while it was of vital importance to secure the health of the people who lived in (he neighbourhood of those manufactories, they must also take great care that they were not depriving them of the means of living, by interfering in such a manner as to drive manufactures to a distance. He had been at the scats of great manufactures in this country, and he had certainly felt great pain at the devastation caused by the gases evolved in the manufacturing processes. It was a melancholy thing to see those compelled to live in such an atmosphere; but in this matter of legislation they must be content to make gradual progress. With regard to the concluding remark of the noble Lord (Lord Aberdare), he pointed out that to appoint Inspectors would be very considerable expense, and, besides, it would be awkward to institute an inspection of trades, concerning which they did not enact anything whatever. As to the coke ovens, he was informed that the Sanitary Acts were sufficient for all purposes, if put in operation, and the blame was due only to those who allowed them to remain inoperative. He hoped their Lordships would accept this measure as an instalment of legislation.
THE MARQUESS OF HUNTLYsaid, that the representations that had been made would be duly considered by the Committee.
§ Motion agreed to; Bill read 2"accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday the 1st of March next.