Lords Sitting of 15 February 1881

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Beading— Alkali, &c. Works Regulation (29).
Third Reading — Consolidated Fund*, and passed.

CENTRAL ASIA—CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN RUSSIA AND THE AMEER OF CABUL.

  PERSONAL EXPLANATION.
  THE EARL OF LYTTON: My Lords, before your Lordships proceed to the business of the day, I would wish, with the permission of your Lordships and of

  857
  the noble Duke (the Duke of Argyll), to whom I have given private Notice of it, to make a very short personal statement with reference to some observations addressed to your Lordships by the noble Duke last week with regard to alleged preparations made by the Government of India in 1876, those being a great military expedition, involving the construction of a bridge of boats across the Indus, and the concentration of a large army on the Afghan Frontier for the purpose—at any rate, for the apparent purpose—of invading or menacing Afghanistan, or the Russian possessions in Central Asia, or both. In addressing to the noble Earl the present Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the Question to which my remarks were strictly confined, I did not expect that I should myself be questioned on other matters by the noble Duke; because, to tell the truth, I was not aware that it would be regular for the noble Duke, any more than for myself, to address to your Lordships a somewhat elaborate, and, as it seems to me, a not very relevant series of remarks upon the answer so courteously given to the Question by the noble Earl. But, my Lords, I cannot but think that it would be exceedingly inconvenient to this House—and I confess it would be encumbering and embarrassing to myself—-if, in moving the Resolution of which I have given Notice in reference to Candahar, I were to enter in detail upon matters wholly unconnected with that question; because I must freely confess that I am quite unable to see how the expediency of retaining or abandoning Candahar can possibly be affected by the question whether, five years ago, I wished to build a bridge of boats across the Indus; and, therefore, I wish to take this opportunity of answering at once the question asked by the noble Duke on the subject. The noble Duke last week told your Lordships a very interesting and impressive story about the construction of this bridge of boats, and the collection of a large army for which this bridge of boats was to be employed; and, having completed his narrative, he called upon me to state to your Lordships whether the whole story as told to you was a myth. As told to you by the noble Duke, that story, undoubtedly, is a myth, and I think I shall be able to satisfy your Lordships that it is a very
  858
  imaginative myth; but, like all other myths, it has a very minute substratum of fact, and the substratum of fact is this. Your Lordships are, no doubt, well aware that there is a small tongue of independent and barbarous territory which juts into the old unscientific Frontier on the North-West of India directly between the important fortresses of Peshawur'and Kohat; and so long as the Government of India had been at peace with the turbulent tribes which populate it, all our communications between Peshawur and Kohat had been carried on straight across this tongue; but when I arrived in India, in 1876, disputes had arisen between the Frontier Tribes and the Punjaub Government, which, I need hardly remind your Lordships, has always been, and is, the local guardian of our interests, and this pass had been closed by the hostile tribes, and the Punjab Government was blockading those tribes who had closed the road. But, unfortunately, the blockade was so ineffectual that when I visited Peshawur in the winter of 1876 there had been no fewer than eight very serious outrages perpetrated on our own territory by the Frontier Tribes and other tribes who were supposed to be acting with them. In these circumstances, the Punjaub Government represented to me the expediency of showing those tribes that our means of communication with Kohat could be made practically independent of their permission or protection. With this object Sir Robert H. Davies, who was then Lieutenant Governor of the Punjaub, recommended three measures. He recommended, in the first place, the immediate improvement of the old road between Kohat and Delhi, which had been formerly used for our communications between the two fortresses, but which had not been used while we had the other road communication. He recommended, in the second place, the establishment of a mail-cart service from Kohat, via Kushalghar, to Rawul Pindi. In the third place, he recommended in connection with this mail-cart service the substitution of a boat-bridge over the Indus for the then existing ferry, which had been found very uncertain, and which was insufficient for the passage of the mail-cart. Well, all those measures were, I believe, simply a revision to the means of communication which had formerly existed with Kohat before the

  859
  opening of the road across the tongue of territory which was closed by the hostility of the Durani Tribes. In addition to those measures, the principal military and political authorities at Peshawur had urged upon mo the expediency of a military expedition to Thull for the purpose of active operations against the recalcitrant tribes. That was the situation I had then to deal with, and, in doing so, it appeared to me that all three measures which I have mentioned—that is to say, the improvement of the road from Kohat to Delhi, the re-establishment of the mail-cart service, and the re-construction of the bridge of boats—might be sanctioned or carried out, in compliance with the suggestion of the Punjaub Government; but with regard to the proposed military expedition, I am of opinion that it was not expedient at that time to sanction it, and I will tell your Lordships why. It appeared to me that at the time there was a very unfortunate, but a very marked, predisposition on the part of certain influential parties and persons in England to attribute, upon any conceivable pretext, to the Government of India certain very bellicose propensities which we were certainly very far from entertaining towards neighbours very much more important than those Frontier Tribes. Therefore, though, in ordinai'y circumstances, I should have regarded this proposed expedition as a very natural, a very proper, and a very efficacious measure, still, having regard to what I considered the relations of the whole situation I was dealing with, it appeared to mo that it was not expedient for the Government of India at that time to sanction any military movement not absolutely indispensable which might possibly have the effect of giving even the faintest pretext for those most deplorable and mischievous impressions with regard to our policy. We were most anxious to avoid giving even the shadow of any sort of provocation to the ill-will of the Ameer of Cabul, who had long previously assumed an attitude towards the Government of India which was very ambiguous, very sinister, and, short of actual hostilities, very hostile, and at a time when the whole Eastern Question was under the consideration of a European Congress at Constantinople, with results which, of course, we could not foresee or fore-reckon. Well, that
  860
  was my view of the measure on which I had to give my decision. But, before finally acting on that view of it, at least in reference to the proposed expedition to Thull, I thought it advisable to refer my view to my Military Colleague, Sir Henry Norman, whom I had left as President of the Council during my absence, and who had, during that time, reached Calcutta with his other Colleagues in Council. These are the terms in which Sir Henry Norman replied to me from Calcutta on the 3rd of December, 1876—
  "The opening of the mail-cart again from Kohat to Rawul Pindi, improvement of the road, and construction of the bridge of boats over the Indus on that route will he beneficial. Your Lordship's resolution not to send a detachment to Thull in the face of the advice to do so from influential quarters was, if I may venture to say so, admirable. What was actually ordered is desirable, and can have no bad effect."
  Perhaps I may be allowed to mention, further, that, so far from collecting a large army, or any army at all, on our Afghan Frontier, either at that time or any subsequent time until we were in open hostilities—forced upon us by the conduct of the Ameer—I, in the year referred to by the noble Duke, rescinded the order issued by the Punjaub Government for the employment of troops for the enforcement of its blockade against these tribes. I gave my sanction to the augmentation—it was not a largo augmentation—of the ordinary police force upon that Frontier. I also sanctioned the issue of smooth-bore arms and ammunition to one or two villages of our own on that Frontier, which were specially exposed to raids and depredations by those hostile tribes, and which, in the opinion of the local authorities, it was extremely desirable to furnish with means of defending themselves against any hostile attack, because I need hardly remind your Lordships that that part of the Frontier is very wide, and the defensive force employed upon it is comparatively small. All those measures were carried out on the express and repeated recommendations of the Punjaub Government, and they were by that Government reported most fully in detail, and officially, to Her Majesty's Government in a despatch from the Governor of India dated March 9, 1877. I do not know whether that despatch has ever been pub-

  861
  lished, as it dealt with purely local circumstances. It is not a secret or confidential despatch, so far as I know; and I have no doubt that the noble Duke will find it in the archives of the India Office. I trust I have said enough to satisfy the noble Duke that in the ardour of his search for evidence of design in phenomena which are really of the commonest and most ordinary character, his acute and powerful intellect—and it is an acute and powerful intellect in the treatment of any subject to which it is addressed, but I wish it was not so frequently addressed to the denunciation of crimes which I have not committed— I trust I have satisfied him, and that he himself will see it, that for once he has been misled, as many other acute and powerful intellects have been misled, by the fatal influence of a preconceived theory. But in answering the question of the noble Duke—and it is one which I am most anxious to answer fairly and completely—perhaps it is only fair that I should not altogether leave out of mention another fact, totally disconnected with the circumstances to which he has referred; but which, for all I know to the contrary, in a time which was literally teeming with misrepresentations, alarming rumours, and I might even say personal calumnies, may probably have given rise to gossiping surmises and conjectures; and if those surmises and conjectures did reach the noble Duke at that time, I do not suppose he was in a position to verify them, and they may have tended to confirm those impressions which have excited his long-continued anxiety. It is undoubtedly true that at that time—and I must ask your Lordships to remember what were the circumstances of that time, how uncertain they were, how critical they were, and how anxious they were—I did deem it my duty, as the Viceroy of India, to endeavour to render myself personally cognizant in some detail of the actual condition and efficiency of our Indian Army; and with that view I addressed, most confidentially, to my chief military advisers, certain questions, to be dealt with only on paper, in reference to the commissariat, transport, and other branches of our military organization, which I feared might possibly be found to be defective should they hereafter be called upon for active service. I need hardly toll your Lordships that these
  862
  were simply the ordinary inquiries which every vigilant Government is bound from time to time to institute amongst those departments; and that they did not involve any public action, any movement, any concentration of troops, or anything which by any possibility could be construed as a menace or demonstration against any foreign Power. I shall only add that I conceived then, and I conceive still, that in making those inquiries I was simply performing one of the plainest and most imperative duties incumbent on me as Governor General of India.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLL: My Lords, the noble Earl has taken, I think, a somewhat unusual course. I received from him the day before yesterday a communication saying that he would make a personal statement to the House on the subject of the military bridge of boats over the Indus, but without giving any date or any indication as to when he would make that personal statement. I concluded without doubt that it would be in the course of the observations which he would address to your Lordships when moving the Resolution on the question of Candahar, which he is to submit to the House on the 24th of this month. Under that impression, I returned an immediate reply, thanking the noble Earl for his courtesy, and I immediately set myself to collect and tabulate such evidence as might be relevant with regard to the statement which I had made—or rather, I ought to say, with regard to the statement which was implied in the Question I attempted to answer. These inquiries have only proceeded one day. I only got the Notice of the noble Earl the day before yesterday, and I have employed the intermediate time in making inquiries as to the circumstances connected with the bridge of boats in question. My Lords, so far as I have yet gone they are entirely confirmatory of the impression at which I had originally arrived; and I have heard with unfeigned astonishment the statement just made by the noble Earl. I can only say that I think the noble Earl has forgotten certain things which passed at that time. In these circumstances, I think it will be more respectful to the noble Earl and more respectful to your Lordships' House that I should take into careful consideration the statement which he has made to-

  863
  night, and that I should on a future occasion and on special notice state to the noble Earl and explain to the House the grounds on which I venture to think the noble Earl has not given a complete explanation of all the circumstances connected with that celebrated transaction. On this occasion I will only say this— that the noble Earl has made a mistake in dates in referring to what he calls the preconceived opinions and the anxiety of the country, and fastening upon him imputations, or ascribing to him motives, which were far from his mind. The noble Earl appears to have forgot that all these operations of his and threatening of Shere Ali were words and deeds that were conducted for many months— I think for 18 months or two years, certainly for more than a year—before a single question was asked in this House, or reference made as to embarrassing the Government or implying any accusation against the noble Earl. The operations upon the Indus, the violent threats issued by the noble Earl against Shere Ali, took place between May and October, 1876, and I put my Question to the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) not in 1876, but in July, 1877. The noble Earl and his Government, and the Government of that time, had absolutely free course in all their operations connected with Afghanistan. Nobody interfered with them either in this or in the other House; and it was not until the country and Parliament began to awake to the serious consequences likely to ensue that I ventured to put the Question. The noble Earl is, therefore, completely mistaken in supposing that I had any preconceived opinion. I had no preconceived opinion; and when I come to make my counter-statement, I hope I shall be able to make good to the House and to the noble Earl sufficient grounds for the suspicion I then entertained, that the operations on the Indus were part of the foreign policy of the Government in regard to our North-Western Frontier.
  THE EARL OF BEACONSEIELD: My Lords, I do not object to the course proposed to be taken by the noble Duke; but I think it would have been just, if not generous, had the noble Duke acknowledged the completeness with which my noble Friend treated the subject introduced into your discussion last week by the noble Duke himself, and not in a
  864
  manner usual in debate in this House. I must recall your Lordships' attention to the fact that the noble Duke has made no answer whatever to the statement of my noble Friend. The noble Duke has told us that he will make a statement afterwards; and he is so confident of the result of his researches, which have not yet been made, that he has already arrived at a conclusion. I confess I do not predict from that statement the candour for which I would willingly give him credit. I am afraid he does approach this subject with a degree of prejudice and passion which I am sorry that one so distinguished and capable should extend to a matter of Imperial interest. With regard to the step taken by my noble Friend in vindicating himself from the charge made against him by the noble Duke, I think it a step discreet and wise, and which was adopted in duo deference to the convenience of your Lordships. Because I think, if we are to have a debate on the real question of the policy or impolicy of retaining Candahar, we should approach that subject with great difficulty, and arrive at a conclusion little satisfactory to your Lordships and the country, if it were to be mixed up with the vindication of the Government of my noble Friend, which must cover a period of nearly five years. I repeat, then, that, in my opinion, it was discreet of my noble Friend that he should disencumber himself of these episodes, which it would have been most inconvenient for your Lordships to have attended to, and that he has relieved us from considerations which would have inconveniently interposed and interfered with that judgment which I hope the House will exercise in arriving at a conclusion on the question of the detention of Candahar.
  EARL GRANVILLE: The noble Earl who has just spoken has approached this subject with a warmth which I do not think it calls for. I am not going to continue this discussion, which is of a somewhat irregular character. My recollection is to this effect. A few days ago the noble Earl (the Earl of Lytton) asked mo a Question about certain Papers —whether, on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, I was prepared to present them or not. He made rather a long preface to that Question, and, in answer to his observations, my noble Friend

  865
  behind me (the Date of Argyll) put two questions of a rather pointed character. The noble Earl gave no answer to these questions at the time, which was within his discretion. Nor did the noble Earl do so next day; but he gave an indefinite notice individually to my noble Friend behind me that he intended at some time or other to make a personal explanation. I do not know whether it is the intention of the noble Earl to make another personal explanation about the other question that my noble Friend put to him—namely, what was the authority on which he stated that Russia was ready to join this country in the destruction of Afghanistan; but if he does, it would be very much to the convenience of the House if he would give a general Notice of his intention, so that we should know on what day we should come to listen to, or take part in, the discussion. I quite agree with the noble Duke that he should not at once deal with the question, but should take time to consider the information which is in his collection, before attempting any complete answer to the noble Earl (the Earl of Lytton); and I entirely concur with the noble Earl (the Earl of Beaconsfield) that in considering the main question, as to whether we shall retain Candahar or abandon it, the less personal recrimination we have introduced the better, and that the merits of the question should alone be considered.

ALKALI, &c. WORKS REGULATION BILL—(No. 29.)
(The Marquess of Huntly.)
ALKALI, &c. WORKS REGULATION BILL—(No. 29.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE MARQUESS OF HUNTLY, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that there had been already a good deal of inquiry and legislation on the subject. Acts dealing with it were passed in 1863, 1868, and 1874. There had been a Committee, under the late Lord Derby, to inquire into it, and there was a Commission in 1878. Parliament, in dealing with the question, had proceeded tentatively, not being desirous of unduly restricting enterprize, or imposing any heavy burden on the manufacturers, but with the view of correcting the damage done by noxious vapours
  866
  and acids, in so far as remedies could be found. The usefulness of the Acts that had been passed was agreed to both by manufacturers and the inhabitants of the districts in which the works were situated; but there was a general desire to enlarge the usefulness of those statutes, and include other works from which noxious gases were evolved, and to bring them under regulation. The Report of 1878 recommended that a considerable number of manufactures should be included in the restrictive legislation. Briefly, the provisions of the Bill were — firstly, it consolidated the existing Acts; secondly, it subjected sulphuric acid works to a test restricting the escape of acid gases from them; thirdly, it provided a separate power for inspection of salt works from brine; fourthly, it insisted upon the registration, on payment of a fee, for all alkali works and the scheduled works. As regarded the scheduled works, the object aimed at had been to touch the industries which admitted of a remedy, and to secure a substantial improvement without over-burdening the manufacturer. Under the Act of 1863 the muriatic acid was to be condensed to the extent of 95 per cent. The Act of 1874 was more stringent. Clause 3 of the present Bill maintained the test of 1874 as regarded alkali works—(a) that to the satisfaction of the Chief Inspector the muriatic acid evolved must not contain more than one-fifth part of a grain to each cubic foot of air, smoke, or chimney gas escaping from works to the atmosphere; the Bill adds the further test that (J) of all the acid gases evolved in the process of manufacturing the total acidity in each cubic foot of air, smoke, or gas escaping into the chimney or into the atmosphere must not be more than four grains of sulphuric anhydride. Clause 5 provided that alkali waste and drainage therefrom, so long as they contained any sulphide, should not come into contact with any liquid containing acid; and that any work in which acid was produced should be carried on in such a manner that the acid should not come in contact with the alkali waste. The sanitary authority, at the request of the owner of the work, at his expense, was to provide a drain or channel for carrying off acids. Clause 6 prevented deposit of alkali waste on land without the best practicable means

  867
  being used to prevent nuisance. By Clause 7 a new power was given to bring all works named in the Schedule under regulation, and providing, as before stated, for the condensation of acid gases in the case of sulphuric acid works. Clause 9 placed salt works under a milder form of inspection. Under this clause inspectors might inquire as to the gases evolved in any works for extraction of salt from brine, and the Local Government Board might issue Provisional Orders, to be confirmed by Parliament, requiring owners to adopt means to prevent escape, and limit the amount or proportion of sulphurous or muriatic acid evolved. By Clause 10 all works touched by the Bill, except salt works, were to be registered. Clause 11 provided that, in future, no works were to be erected without being furnished with appliances to carry out the purposes of the Act. Clause 13 embodied the existing clauses for the appointment of Inspectors by the Local Government Board. But in Clause 15 there was an extension of power; it authorized Inspectors to enter and inspect any place where alkali waste was treated or deposited, or where any liquid containing acid was likely to come into contact with alkali waste, but not in such a way as to interrupt the process of manufacture. Under Clause 18 the sanitary authority might apply for an additional Inspector, on paying not less than one-half of his salary. Clause 27 provided that any person might bring an action against several persons —individually and separately—for any nuisance arising from noxious and offensive gases; and further actions might, in future, be brought in County Courts. There were not included in the Bill many works recommended by the Royal Commission to be placed under inspection only; because it was considered that where the Government were not prepared to adopt a test regulating the escape of noxious vapours, or any practicable means for restricting them, such inspection would be unnecessarily vexatious to the manufacturers and expensive in practice. He should, doubtless, be asked why the recommendation of the Commission as regarded coke ovens was not adopted. The reason was that coke ovens emitted black smoke — although, to a small extent, acids might be evolved in the smoke—
  868
  and that that could be touched under the Public Health Act, 1875. The Bill included cement works among the scheduled ones not recommended by the Commission.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Marquess of Huntly.)
  VISCOUNT MIDLETONadmired the ingenuity with which the noble Marquess had endeavoured to persuade their Lordships that in introducing this Bill he was really introducing a comprehensive measure that would settle the difficult questions with which it was to deal. He was afraid, however, he could not congratulate him upon his success. The matter was not before their Lordships for the first time; but 15 years ago it attracted attention, and had been almost continuously before their Lordships in one way or another since. With regard to the Bill, it was to be judged rather by what it did not than what it did do. The noble Earl (the Earl of Beacons-field) had stated that the alkali trade afforded one of the most delicate tests of the revival or decadence of the commercial powers of the country, and that statement had been fully borne out by the facts of the case. The amount of capital invested in the alkali trade two years ago considerably exceeded, he believed, £2,000,000, and it had largely increased since. He admitted the extreme delicacy of attempting to deal by legislation with interests so large and so widely diffused. They had to consider the very great amount of capital invested, and also the great danger there was, if they imposed restrictive legislation, of destroying the margin of profit, and thus driving the trade abroad. At the same time, there were considerations of public utility and public welfare which must override those others if a fair case could be made out. As the law now stood there were but few trades affected by the Acts, alkali works, and works in which copper was subjected to the wet process. To these it was proposed to add by the Bill, cement works, chemical manure works, gas liquor works, nitric acid works, sulphuric acid works, works for the treatment of sulphate of ammonia, and one or two others which all required to be dealt with. As far as the Bill went its general principle might be accepted. No doubt a genuine attempt had been made to correct the evil, so far

  869
  as they could do so, by scientific processes applied to the exit of gases; and it certainly would be an important advantage for the Inspector under the Local Government to be able to deal with the question of acid drainage and the waste from alkali works, which were alike destructive to vegetation, and which were most offensive to smell and a grievous nuisance. There was one trade embraced in the Bill, but which was put upon another footing, and that was salt works, which were put under inspection merely. That subject formed one of the recommendations of the Commission. There was no doubt that a large amount of the evil which arose from salt works could be cured; but it could only be by an amount of expenditure which would render it extremely difficult to carry on the business, because it would totally destroy the small amount of profit that would enable them to compete with the foreigners, and he therefore thought it quite right to except those works from stringent regulation to which others were subjected. The Bill of the noble Marquess was infinitely weaker than the one introduced in the last Session of Parliament by Mr. Sclater-Booth and than the recommendations of the Commission. In fact, the Bill now presented was only an emasculated copy of that of 1880, and left out 12 trades altogether which the Commissioners specially recommended should be dealt with—one of the most deleterious of which was the treatment of copper by the dry process. Potteries and glass works also emitted distinct noxious gases, but at so high a temperature that no process had yet been found to neutralize them. The Commissioners, therefore, recommended them to be placed in the category of noxious trades. They were, nevertheless, quite ignored by the present Bill. A still more striking omission was that of coke ovens, which were recommended to be dealt with by the Bill of 1880, but entirely disappeared from this Bill. This was purely a matter of expense. He could not help thinking that some of the works the Commissioners, of whom he was one, inspected were swept and garnished for the purpose. The very best of them were those of Mr. Lowthian Bell, where everything was done that science could effect for the destruction of the noxious gases; but, for the most part, the works were ill-
  870
  ventilated, and every species of nuisance was collected around them, and the expense of putting them into a proper condition would be considerable. There was one point of view from which a Bill of this kind became a hardship, unless it was a complete Bill. There was no doubt that the great mass of the trade had endeavoured to comply with the provisions of the existing Act at great personal sacrifices. The object was to bring up the manufacturers who did not do their duty to the level of the best managed works. Complaint was made with justice by some that heavy penalties were imposed on them, while many persons conducting kindred industries were allowed to escape scot free. That was an injustice that would be perpetuated by this Bill. As many as 12 trades were left entirely outside the Bill; and it was refused to put them even under inspection. The Bill, generally speaking, seemed to him to smack far too much of the spirit of compromise, which implied that the Government could not count on the majority which they had in the other House to enable them to carry the proposals which they would wish to have made. He thought any measure on this subject should be fair, full, and comprehensive, and this Bill had none of those qualities. He trusted that the clause providing for cumulative liability would be rigorously maintained, though, from recent experience, he very much doubted whether it would. With regard to inspection, he objected to anything like local Inspectors, and he thought the proposal to keep their appointment in the hands of the Local Government Board a good one. He thought, however, the time had come when they should cease to proceed in this matter in what he would call a tentative manner, and when any legislation on the subject of inspection should proceed on more settled lines. As one who had studied this question, and who, having been on the Royal Commission, had formed an impartial opinion on it, he was bound to say that he did not think the measure would be accepted as a settlement of the question. He thought the result would be to cause an outcry similar to that which was raised in 1876 for fresh legislation, another Address to Her Majesty praying for the issue of another Commission, and that they would be obliged to bring in another Bill. They

  871
  ought not to make the law less stringent than the recommendation of the Commissioners; and, in respect specially to coke ovens, unless he received some assurance from the noble Marquess, he would move that it be an Instruction to the Committee to include them.
  LORD ABERDAREsaid, that having been, to some extent, responsible for the issue of the Commission which inquired into that subject, and having examined the matter at some sacrifice of personal comfort and almost of health, he wished to make a few remarks. That question had been brought some years ago before their Lordships' House by the most rev. Primate (the Archbishop of Canterbury), and on that occasion he had himself ventured to suggest that nothing further should be done in the direction of interfering with those noxious trades until after a thorough inquiry had been instituted with the aid of eminent scientific men. A Commission was subsequently issued, to the members of which were joined three chemists of the greatest reputation and ability, who were conversant with the application of chemistry to trades and manufactures. The Commissioners were charged with the duty of taking a comprehensive view of the whole subject. The present Bill, in his opinion, contained some very decided improvements on its predecessors, as might fairly have been expected. As a Consolidating Bill, it would effect an improvement, the value of which all those who had anything to do with the administration of justice would recognize. It dealt in a better manner than had been done before with one of the most noxious of vapours, sulphureted hydrogen, which extended sometimes for eight, nine, or ten miles, making life almost impossible. The measure was also, in some respects, more stringent than the previous one. The Commission had proposed to deal with those nuisances under different classes. They found the works carried on with various degrees of care; and where they felt themselves justified in requiring the proprietors to use the best known processes for remedying the nuisances arising from their operations they recommended the adoption of that course. In regard to another and very considerable class of works, all inflicting nuisances, they did not think they were in a position to insist on the use of the best known processes where it would
  872
  involve the entire stoppage of the works. But it was generally admitted that there would be much advantage in subjecting those works to inspection, with a view to their being carried on with the smallest practical amount of mischief to the neighbourhood; and many of the manufacturers themselves concurred in that view. They objected, indeed, to the local Inspectors as not having such scientific attainments as would justify them in interfering with processes of great nicety; but as long as they were satisfied that the Inspectors possessed adequate scientific knowledge they did not object to their supervision. The Commissioners had proposed that a very large number of works should be placed under inspection. Their object was not only that by inspection the works should be kept up to the latest discoveries of modern science, but as those discoveries became known, they recommended—and the late Government adopted their recommendation — that on the Local Government Board being satisfied that by the adoption of some scientific process the injury which was devastating a whole district might be prevented, it should issue a Provisional Order and include the works under the operation of the Act. Many towns were so bound up by interest with manufacturing industry that their authorities were afraid of inflicting injury on the manufacturers by imposing on them the expense of providing apparatus for consuming their own smoke. He was sorry to see that the Government, with the opportunity now given them, had neglected the subject of coke ovens. It was no answer to say that the subject was sufficiently dealt with by the ordinary law of the land; because there was hardly a manufacturing town in England that put the law into operation, the manufacturing interest and influence being so powerful as to prevent its general adoption or enforcement. It was wrong to suppose that the injury done by coke was confined to the black smoke, because much sulphuric acid was also generated to the great injury of animal and vegetable life. He advised his noble Friend to consult with the President of the Local Government Board, to consider, after what had taken place, if a little more effect could not be given to the recommendations of the Commission. One of these, he would remind him, was that there were some 12 trades in respect

  873
  to which it would not be safe to interfere, but which ought to be periodically inspected with a view to future legislation.
  THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY, in supporting, three years ago, the Motion for a Royal Commission as originally moved by the noble Duke the late Lord Privy Seal had regretted that it did not extend to the River Thames. He did not, however, on that account lose his interest in the question generally, and was glad when the scope of the Commission was extended; and now, on behalf of his neighbours, he was sorry that no remedy was to be applied in Lambeth. The inconvenience he himself suffered in a large and commodious house from noxious gases made him specially alive to the far greater inconvenience and injury to health which the poor people around him must suffer. He was glad to hear the noble Viscount intimate that in Committee he would propose some further extension in the direction in which the Bill went. All people who could fled from cities where noxious vapours were omitted, and saw nothing of the injury done by these works to the poor. In London itself the poor gathered in one place and the rich in another; and thus those sympathies and amenities which would naturally arise from their being brought into juxtaposition were lost—a state of matters which might yet become a great social question. This was a subject in which the rich and the better circumstanced could show their interest in the poor, whose health was so prejudiced by the evils which this measure sought to remedy.
  THE EAKL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he could remember when this subject was first brought before that House by the late Lord Derby, and ever since that time great interest had been taken in it by Members of their Lordships' House. Now, the noble Viscount opposite (Viscount Midleton) complained that this was not a comprehensive measure. He (the Earl of Kimberley) imagined that every Government would be glad if it could make all its legislation comprehensive; but it was generally found that in all matters involving considerable interference with trades and business a comprehensive measure was practically impossible. Parliament proceeded, as a rule, and he thought wisely, step by step, building up a system by means of
  874
  experience, and not by experimental legislation, causing a reaction against their measures which would not be easily remedied. He pointed out that this was a very considerable advance upon previous legislation, and he submitted it ought not to be measured by its provisions, but by what it actually did. The Bill proposed to include six or seven new trades under its scope. There were three trades by which considerable injury was done to neighbourhoods, and which they should be very glad to deal with—he referred to the gases evolved in the manufactures connected with dry copper, with potteries, and glass. Chemistry, however, had not yet been able to discover any process by which a remedy could be applied without interfering- in a great measure with the manufactures themselves. He was sanguine enough, however, to believe that in course of time, by the aid of chemists and the wonderful progress in knowledge, some process would be discovered by which to deal with the evils referred to. The most rev. Primate (the Archbishop of Canterbury) would agree with him that while it was of vital importance to secure the health of the people who lived in (he neighbourhood of those manufactories, they must also take great care that they were not depriving them of the means of living, by interfering in such a manner as to drive manufactures to a distance. He had been at the scats of great manufactures in this country, and he had certainly felt great pain at the devastation caused by the gases evolved in the manufacturing processes. It was a melancholy thing to see those compelled to live in such an atmosphere; but in this matter of legislation they must be content to make gradual progress. With regard to the concluding remark of the noble Lord (Lord Aberdare), he pointed out that to appoint Inspectors would be very considerable expense, and, besides, it would be awkward to institute an inspection of trades, concerning which they did not enact anything whatever. As to the coke ovens, he was informed that the Sanitary Acts were sufficient for all purposes, if put in operation, and the blame was due only to those who allowed them to remain inoperative. He hoped their Lordships would accept this measure as an instalment of legislation.
  THE MARQUESS OF HUNTLYsaid, that the representations that had been made would be duly considered by the Committee.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2"accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday the 1st of March next.

AFGHANISTAN—CANDAHAE (COST OF OCCUPATION).—QUESTION.
EARL STANHOPEasked the noble Lord the Under Secretary of State for India, If he will state upon whose authority "the entire cost of the occupation of Candahar and the adjacent territory" was estimated by him at not less than £1,400,000 per annum; whether that sum includes the ordinary cost of maintenance of troops within the old Frontier; and, whether he can give, in a general way, the details of the estimate?
VISCOUNT ENFIELD: I am not able at present to give my noble Friend "the authority" which he asks for; but, as the Secretary of State for India stated yesterday in "another place," some details bearing on the Estimate to which reference has been made will be contained in the Papers which he proposes to lay upon the Table. I stated the other evening that I believed, speaking upon what I thought to be reliable data, that the annual cost of occupying the City of Candahar and the posts on the line of communication with our own Frontier had been estimated by competent authority in England at £ 1,400,000. My noble Friend the Secretary of State has said that this Estimate has been made on the basis of a smaller force than that which is now stationed at Candahar and on the line of communication. The cost of the present force, calculated at the ordinary Indian rate in time of peace, is rather over £960,000 a-year. Taking into account the additional charges, military and political, incident to service beyond the Frontier, it is considered that the whole expenditure would not be far short of double the ordinary Indian cost of a similar force, which would bring the amount to nearly £2,000,000. This rough Estimate is an Estimate of the force required for the occupation of Candahar and its communications. In Lord Hartington's opinion this would be a simple addition to the
876
ordinary military expenditure of India, which, he thinks, would rather have to be increased than diminished in consequence of this measure.

LAND IMPROVEMENT ACTS (IRELAND).

  MOTION FOR A RETURN.
  LORD HARLECHmoved for
  "Return by counties of all loans under the Land Improvement Acts granted in Ireland in each year; the amount issued in each county; and the amount remaining unappropriated at the end of 1880: Also, a summary for the whole of Ireland under each of the above three heads, distinguishing the period from the passing of the original Act in 1847 to the end of 1855, and for each quinquennial period subsequently."
  EARL SPENCERsaid, the Government had no objection to the Return asked for.
  Motion agreed to.

SOUTH AFRICA—THE TRANSVAAL (NEGOTIATIONS).

  OBSERVATIONS. QUESTION.
  EARL CADOGANsaid, that he was reluctant to trouble their Lordships at the present time with the consideration of the Question he had placed upon the Notice Paper; but statements had been made during the last few days, both by the Prime Minister and the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, in "another place," which had excited considerable attention, and which had induced him to invite the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies to give some further explanation with regard to the negotiations which had been going on between Her Majesty's Government and President Brand, the President of the Orange Free State, which, if he was rightly informed, had been continued up to a very recent period. Their Lordships were aware that for some time past—he believed since the beginning of last December—a Correspondence had been going on between Her Majesty's Government and the President of the Orange Free State with reference to the terms that would be granted to the Boors. It was not necessary for him to read to their Lordships all the communications and telegrams which had passed on the subject, which were to be found in the Papers which had been recently laid upon the Table of the House. He might, however, state that the first communication reached the Government

  877
  on December 30, 1880, and was acknowledged on January 1, 1881. A second telegram, communicated by Mr. Blyth, the Consul of the Orange Free State in this country, on the 10th of January, was answered by the Secretary of State, who stated that he "did not despair of being able to make a satisfactory arrangement." Further telegrams and despatches were exchanged till, on January 26, in reply to a telegram from President Brand asking whether—
  "It is not possible to offer to the people of the Transvaal, through the High Commissioner, Sir Hercules Robinson, certain terms and conditions, provided they ceased from armed opposition,"
  the noble Earl stated that "Her Majesty's Government would thereupon frame," not as before stated, merely "a satisfactory arrangement," but "such a scheme as, in their belief, would satisfy all enlightened friends of the Transvaal community." He believed that all noble Lords in that House might claim to be friends of the Transvaal community, even although we had unfortunate differences with them at this moment; but whether they were enlightened or not would depend upon the answer which the noble Earl might give that evening. There was only one more communication of the date of January 29 in the Blue Book; but on Thursday, February 10, Sir George Campbell, in the other House of Parliament, asked the Prime Minister—
  "Whether Her Majesty's Government will now offer to the Boers of the Transvaal the terms which they consider to be just, instead of enforcing unconditional submission before their terms are announced?"
  In reply to that Question, the Prime Minister stated that a second telegram had been received, which was as follows:—
  "In answer to a telegram from Sir George Colley stating that President Brand urged him to state the nature of the scheme mentioned in the previous telegram, and to guarantee that the Boers should not be treated as rebels, if they submitted, Sir George Colley received an instruction of which I shall give the substance. On the 8th instant, from the Cape, he was instructed to inform President Brand that Her Majesty's Government will be ready to give all reasonable guarantees as to the treatment of the Boers after submission, if they desist from armed opposition, and that the scheme will be framed with a view to the permanently friendly settlement of the difficulty; to which he was to add that Her Majesty's Government would he glad if President Brand would communicate to the leaders of the Boers this as well as the former message."
  878
  The right hon. Gentleman added that it was not certain whether President Brand had communicated those statements in a regular and official manner to the Boers. On Friday last, however, when another Question was put to him on the subject, the right hon. Gentleman stated that—
  "Her Majesty's Government had formally and distinctly requested President Brand to make their communications known to the Boer leaders."
  He wished to put the House in possession of the substance of all these communications before he put the Question of which he had given Notice to the noble Earl. They must all deprecate the ruinous war which was unfortunately being waged against our brethren in the Transvaal; they must have watched with approval the steps which the Government had taken at the commencement of the hostilities to bring them to a peaceful and an early conclusion; and they must also feel grateful to Her Majesty's Government for the manner in which they had met the overtures of President Brand; but he could not help saying that since the last despatch of the 20th of January was sent the circumstances of the case had undergone a considerable change. Up to that time their policy of conciliation must have been considered proper; but now that the hostilities had assumed an unsuccessful character on the side of our arms, he feared that any attempts at negotiation with the leaders of the Boers might have the appearance of suing for peace. That was a proceeding which he need not remind their Lordships was unknown to British statesmen and commanders. As lately as the 8th of February, and after news had been received of the disaster at Laing's Nek and subsequent disasters, it was clear that communication was kept up with President Brand, who was, in turn, asked to make known the effect of these representations to the leaders of the Boers. He felt it his duty to warn the Government against the danger they would incur in continuing negotiations with the Boers in view of the present aspect of military affairs in the Transvaal. There was a danger that the Boers might continue successfully the operations now proceeding against us, until they saw fit to suspend hostile operations, when they might claim from the noble Earl terms which

  879
  it was said had been offered to them, but the nature of which had not been made known; and they might do this at a time without our having had an opportunity of repairing the injuries inflicted upon ourselves. The second danger he apprehended was that, whatever might be the result of the war, when the war was brought to a conclusion the noble Earl would find that the Boers of the Transvaal would have a right to claim from him a settlement which he might have offered before hostilities commenced, and which might have been satisfactory at the time; but which would not be satisfactory when the hostilities were brought to a close. He had no wish to embarrass Her Majesty's Government at the present time, and he sincerely hoped that before long-some means might be found of bringing the war to an end, with credit to ourselves, and with advantage to those with whom we wore in conflict. No one would rejoice more than he would if means were found for such a communication. He must express a hope that Her Majesty's Government, while desirous, as they all were, to obtain peace on honourable terms, and not to press too hardly on those with whom we were fighting-, would not be unmindful of the credit and honour of the country, which he must confess would, in his view, be in a considerable degree imperilled if the Government persisted in a course of communication with the loaders of the Boers at a time when our arms had not met with the success which was hoped and anticipated. The noble Earl concluded by asking the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether he will state to the House the full text of the despatch referred to by the Prime Minister on Friday last, in which Her Majesty's Government "formally and distinctly requested President Brand to mate their communication known to the Boor leaders;" whether negotiations of the same character are still going on between Her Majesty's Government and the leaders of the Boers; and, if so, whether any such correspondence will be at once communicated to Parliament?
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: My Lords, I am as anxious as the noble Earl for the honour of the country; but he must allow us who are responsible to form our own opinion and take our own course as to the manner in which the
  880
  honour and the interests of the country can be best maintained. As regards the Question of the noble Earl, it is in itself very simple, and a very simple answer might be given to it. My noble Friend has asked whether I would state the full text of the despatch which had been sent to President Brand. The noble Earl, however, has himself read the whole of the despatch, and every word of it has also been road by Mr. Gladstone in the House of Commons. Of course it will be included in any Blue Book upon the subject that may be laid upon the Table. The noble Earl read also the previous despatch, and he stated that he thought our proceedings had rather the appearance of suing for peace.
  EARL CADOGAN: Might have the appearance of suing for peace.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: If the noble Earl will look at the terms of the telegram itself, he will see that it certainly could not bear the character which he bad given to it. The telegram in question was that of the 26th of January, to Sir George Colley, in answer to a telegram from President Brand, which was communicated by the Consul of the Orange Free State in London, and was to this effect—
  "I have to instruct you to inform President Brand that if armed opposition should at once cease Her Majesty's Government would thereupon endeavour to frame such a scheme as, in their belief, would satisfy all enlightened friends of the Transvaal community."
  Your Lordships will observe that the condition laid down is, "if armed opposition at once ceases." This is not suing for peace on our part; but it is giving the Transvaal Boers an opportunity of placing themselves in such a position as would be honourable to us and advantageous to themselves. The noble Earl will observe that these propositions have arisen from communications voluntarily made to us by President Brand, and not sought for by us; and we have answered them in a friendly spirit, due to the friendly tone President Brand has adopted, and to the very friendly action he has manifested throughout this unfortunate business. We could scarcely have done less, either with regard to President Brand himself or the friendly relations which have been maintained with the Orange Free State. The last communication to which the noble Earl referred, and which has been read by

  881
  Mr. Gladstone in the House of Commons, followed naturally on the other communication. President Brand asked for further information on a point as to which it was natural he should feel anxious—namely, whether guarantees would be given, in case armed opposition should cease, as to the safety of those taking part in it, and the answer was that reasonable guarantees would be given. There is nothing, I feel, which I have reason to be ashamed of in these communications, which will, of course, be included in the Papers placed before Parliament. In answer to the noble Earl's further Question—
  "Whether negotiations of the same character are still going on between Her Majesty's Government and the loaders of the Boers; and, if so, whether any such correspondence will be at once communicated to Parliament?"
  I have to say that further communications are going on; but I am not in a position to make any statement on the subject to the House at present.
  THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD: My Lords, I am sure none of your Lordships would wish that Her Majesty's Government should be put in a position inducing a sentiment of shame. I am sure that was not the wish of my noble Friend in putting his Question, which was one for explanation, and not for the purpose of shaming the Government. What is wanted is information as to the position of this country when Her Majesty's Government are negotiating and making war at the same time. To enter into negotiations when you are waging war unsuccessfully is a perilous process; and I think, therefore, that my noble Friend was justified in the course he has taken in asking for explanations. It is all very well to talk about making the cessation of armed hostility on the part of the Boers a condition of peace; but how can you lay down as a condition that armed hostilities should cease when you yourselves are suffering under a military disaster; and when there is a possibility that those who are authorized may enter into conclusive negotiations without any consideration of the military disasters which, during the interval of negotiations, may have occurred? The possibility of that is one which I am not at all surprised that my noble Friend should regard, with great distrust and apprehension. It is with that feeling that my noble Friend
  882
  made his inquiry, and I hope good will result from it.
  House adjourned at half past Seven o'clock, to Thursday next, half past Ten o'clock.